Storm vs. Invisible Woman

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Conversely, it held up to punches from a fully merged Sentry and the entirety of the Cancerverse pressing against it for a bit.

This also ignores that if you are allowing she has a shield up, then Storm has already lostbecause she can create shields and attack at the same time.

The nature of the attack matters....

A punch delivers a sudden, localized burst of pressure, while the pressure inside Jupiter is a sustained and overwhelming force that compresses and alters the very nature of matter. The pressure at Jupiter's core can be 650 million pounds per square inch (650 million PSI), equivalent to approximately 160,000 cars stacked on every square inch of your body, continuously.

You would need millions of punches from the strongest heroes simultaneously hitting the same spot to even begin to approach the pressure inside Jupiter's core.

This is hypothetical, but I think that would probably instantly crack her shield even if it's skin tight.

Originally posted by TGATES
The nature of the attack matters....

A punch delivers a sudden, localized burst of pressure, while the pressure inside Jupiter is a sustained and overwhelming force that compresses and alters the very nature of matter. The pressure at Jupiter's core can be 650 million pounds per square inch (650 million PSI), equivalent to approximately 160,000 cars stacked on every square inch of your body, continuously.

You would need millions of punches from the strongest heroes simultaneously hitting the same spot to even begin to approach the pressure inside Jupiter's core.

This is hypothetical, but I think that would probably instantly crack her shield even if it's skin tight.

It's atmospheric pressure my guy, not core pressure.

She withstood Hercules pressing and pushing against it, despite being pretty angry at her.

You also didn't address my point about simultaneous attack and defence, which tells me you've conceded.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Scans: Sue's electrons are invisible.

2. So you agree that whether or not Storm can detect Sue is irrelevant? Her invisibility isn't even a necessary factor.

3. I don't see a shield - where is it? She countered heat with cold. Cold or ice won't stop Sue's constructs or a bubble to the brain.

4. Sue will have her shield up before Storm can act. Therefore, Sue starts shielded relative to Ororo.

2. Yes I agree that Sue's visibility is irrelevant. I think I'm saying that for the fourth time.

3. She got nuked and didn't move. Vulcan literally razed the palace and cratered the ground in a single blast. Storm was at ground zero. You think she avoided the physical force of the blast through countering heat with cold?

Anyways:

4. So you admit that "Sue starts shielded" was wrong? 👆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's atmospheric pressure my guy, not core pressure.

She withstood Hercules pressing and pushing against it, despite being pretty angry at her.

You also didn't address my point about simultaneous attack and defence, which tells me you've conceded.

Jupiter is not a solid planet so it's all atmosphere, my guy.

Mere punches are still not the same.

Sue would be defending herself from being turned into potted meat.

Every square inch of her body.....every square inch of her shield would be taxed, NOT just a localized area.

To attempt to attack would be her death sentence.

I honestly don't think she has faced something like that.

Also, you have not proven that Sue's shield blocks Storm's specific form of tk as it has never been defined. Storm is primarily an atmokinetic. Her ability to manipulate weather elements is a specialized and focused manifestation of control over the atmospheric forces, rather than general telekinetic power. Her powers are described as psionic, meaning they are mentally controlled and connected to her emotions. This connection to her mental state might be seen as a broader application of psychokinetic abilities, although not necessarily in the traditional sense of moving solid objects.

What I DO know is Sue is affected by physical localized forces on her shield, and it has been broken in the past. This is not a localized force. It's every square inch.

The strength of Sue's force field is tied to her concentration. If Storm could create a sufficiently disorienting attack or find a way to disrupt Sue's focus, the shield could be vulnerable.

While her shields can withstand massive impacts, including those from class 100 strength and even short exposures to the attacks of beings like Galactus or the Mad Celestials, sufficiently powerful attacks, especially if sustained, can eventually break through. In Marvel Two-In-One Vol. 1 #9, a mind-controlled Thor was able to shatter Sue's force field with repeated blows from Mjolnir. Her shields, while strong against most energy types, have been shown to have specific vulnerabilities. For example, a Kree mannequin once dissolved her force field by siphoning its energy.

Storm can enhance the environment and trap her.

If Storm locks down she can shut out and create ground zero.

If she patterns she can counter and explain the difference so that she acquires the characteristics and can campaign ftw.

Originally posted by Smurph
1. The scans are in this thread, just read.

2. Yes I agree that Sue's visibility is irrelevant. I think I'm saying that for the fourth time.

3. She got nuked and didn't move. Vulcan literally razed the palace and cratered the ground in a single blast. Storm was at ground zero. You think she avoided the physical force of the blast through countering heat with cold?

Anyways:

4. So you admit that "Sue starts shielded" was wrong? 👆

1. The scans don't convince me that Storm can pinpoint Sue's exact location, at least not instantly. Storm can detect disturbances caused by objects or people, but that doesn't equate to precise or immediate tracking. Sue's invisibility gives her even more time, though she likely doesn't need it.
2. So we agree here
3. A barrier of cold isn't a shield against force or physical constructs. We even see the cold manifest before the heat attack, and the ice after the attack has ended. Regarding your new scan, what issue is that from?

You also left out:

Originally posted by h1a8

Even if she did, Sue can exert far more force through her constructs than Storm could realistically defend against. For instance, how would Storm stop a sharp construct being driven into her back with immense, potentially astronomical, force?

And that's not even considering a force bubble inside the brain - something Storm has no defense against.

4. You're arguing semantics. My point was clearly that Sue would have a shield up before Storm makes any move. Whether it's up before the bell or just before Storm acts makes no practical difference, the result is the same.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. The scans don't convince me that Storm can pinpoint Sue's exact location, at least not instantly. Storm can detect disturbances caused by objects or people, but that doesn't equate to precise or immediate tracking. Sue's invisibility gives her even more time, though she likely doesn't need it.
2. So we agree here
3. A barrier of cold isn't a shield against force or physical constructs. We even see the cold manifest before the heat attack, and the ice after the attack has ended. Regarding your new scan, what issue is that from?

You also left out:

4. You're arguing semantics. My point was clearly that Sue would have a shield up before Storm makes any move. Whether it's up before the bell or just before Storm acts makes no practical difference, the result is the same.

2. ^

3. This doesn't respond to what I wrote.

The latest scan is from Marvel's Voices: X-Men #1

4. No, your point was:

Originally posted by h1a8
This isn't a quick-draw contest. Sue starts shielded and can defend against anything Storm throws at her.

Now you're changing positions in an implicit admission that you were wrong and it IS a quick draw contest.

You can argue that Sue wins the quick draw but my point from the beginning has been that it comes down to the quick draw.

Fantastic 4 232

This maxed Sue out.

Jupiter doesn't have a solid surface, so its atmospheric pressure varies with depth.
Near the cloud tops, the pressure is about 0.1 bar.
At a depth of around 75 miles (120 km), the pressure is approximately 320 psi (22 bar). At about 93 miles (150 km) deep, the pressure reaches approximately 480 psi (33 bar). The pressure at Jupiter's center is predicted to be greater than 100 million bars.
1 bar is approximately 14.5 psi

Commercial processes typically liquefy air at pressures between 75 and 150 psig (5.2-10.5 bars).

I don't think Sue can sustain a defense for even a split second at those pressures.

I don't think Storm would even have to mount a secondary attack.

Sue has been shown to be most taxed by short-term physical punches and not the extreme atmospheric conditions that Storm can create on earth. At one time it was hard for her to create these pressures.

Uncanny X-Men #449

Originally posted by TGATES
I'd say the storm can just crush the shield with Jovian pressure. It has been broken by one punch from Hulk. Could it stand up to continuous pressures greater than Jupiter?

Are we certain that Sue's shield blocks all psionics including Storm's ill-defined atmokinesis?

1. Her shields have withstood forces from Hulk, Gladiator, an enraged Thor wielding Mjolnir, Galactus, Sentry, and others.

2. Jovian pressure begins at 1 atm and increases with depth. You must provide scans or issue numbers proving that Storm has generated pressure equivalent to specific layers of Jupiter's atmosphere.
Sue can stab Storm with a construct or expand a bubble in her brain before Storm can generate this so-called Jovian pressure, unless you can prove Storm can do so in under a second.

Tasks for you:
A. Provide scans showing Storm creating Jovian-level pressure.
B. Identify which atmospheric layer of Jupiter the pressure corresponds to.
C. Prove how quickly Storm can reach that level of pressure.

3. Sue's shields have blocked both telekinesis and telepathy. The burden is on you to prove Storm can generate weather phenomena inside a shield that resists such forces.

Using low-end feats of one character against high-end feats of another is a trolling tactic. Honest comparisons should be high vs. high, not low vs. high. Let the feats speak for themselves.

Originally posted by Smurph
1. All of this is irrelevant with your concession that invisibility is irrelevant.

2. ^

3. This doesn't respond to what I wrote.

The latest scan is from Marvel's Voices: X-Men #1

4. No, your point was:

Now you're changing positions in an implicit admission that you were wrong and it IS a quick draw contest.

You can argue that Sue wins the quick draw but my point from the beginning has been that it comes down to the quick draw.

3. It does matter. You presented scans of Storm surviving a heat attack as evidence of general force shielding, yet that doesn't prove she has true force fields.

Additionally, my original point still stands.

The scan you referenced of Storm's barrier against Iceman appears to be thermal in nature, it melted Iceman's construct, as indicated by the “SZZZZLE” sound effect. This suggests she created an atmospheric thermal barrier, not an actual force field. Regardless, Sue can easily penetrate it based on direct feat comparisons.

4. I define a quick draw as the first person to perform an offensive action winning, similar to an old west gunfight.

That’s not what’s happening here. Even if Storm raises a shield (barrier) before Sue attacks, she still loses. So how can this be considered a TRUE quick draw scenario?

@TGATES
I just saw your scan - I missed it earlier because you posted it while I was typing my reply.

There are two main issues:
A. The scan doesn't specify which atmospheric layer of Jupiter the pressure corresponds to.
B. It takes Storm several seconds to generate the effect. She'd be dead in a fraction of a second after the bell rings.

You're also ignoring basic factors - like what Sue will be doing while Storm is busy trying to conjure all this up.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Her shields have withstood forces from Hulk, Gladiator, an enraged Thor wielding Mjolnir, Galactus, Sentry, and others.

2. Jovian pressure begins at 1 atm and increases with depth. You must provide scans or issue numbers proving that Storm has generated pressure equivalent to specific layers of Jupiter's atmosphere.
Sue can stab Storm with a construct or expand a bubble in her brain before Storm can generate this so-called Jovian pressure, unless you can prove Storm can do so in under a second.

Tasks for you:
A. Provide scans showing Storm creating Jovian-level pressure.
B. Identify which atmospheric layer of Jupiter the pressure corresponds to.
C. Prove how quickly Storm can reach that level of pressure.

3. Sue's shields have blocked both telekinesis and telepathy. The burden is on you to prove Storm can generate weather phenomena inside a shield that resists such forces.

Using low-end feats of one character against high-end feats of another is a trolling tactic. Honest comparisons should be high vs. high, not low vs. high. Let the feats speak for themselves.

It wouldn't take Jovian-level pressure to destroy Sue's shield. Storm created Jovian pressure around Thor instantly. She is an omega-level individual, so things that used to take time come instantly.

You have to remember how atmospheric pressure acts on objects as opposed to localized pressure. Punches are localized, but atmospheric pressures act on every square inch of the object.

Being an Omega, Storm could potentially create pressures akin to neutron stars, given how easy Jovian pressures are for her now.

Anyway, I think Sue will be defeated as her shields fail and her atoms are squished into metallic hydrogen.

Originally posted by h1a8
3. It does matter. You presented scans of Storm surviving a heat attack as evidence of general force shielding, yet that doesn't prove she has true force fields.

Additionally, my original point still stands.

The scan you referenced of Storm's barrier against Iceman appears to be thermal in nature, it melted Iceman's construct, as indicated by the “SZZZZLE” sound effect. This suggests she created an atmospheric thermal barrier, not an actual force field. Regardless, Sue can easily penetrate it based on direct feat comparisons.

4. I define a quick draw as the first person to perform an offensive action winning, similar to an old west gunfight.

That’s not what’s happening here. Even if Storm raises a shield (barrier) before Sue attacks, she still loses. So how can this be considered a TRUE quick draw scenario?

There are chips of iceman's giant fist flying off of Storm's shield. That's not him melting, that's a barrier to blunt force. The SZZZZLE is the sound of the force field.

It's a quick draw because it depends on whether Storm can attack Sue before Sue shields.

Originally posted by h1a8
@TGATES
I just saw your scan - I missed it earlier because you posted it while I was typing my reply.

There are two main issues:
A. The scan doesn't specify which atmospheric layer of Jupiter the pressure corresponds to.
B. It takes Storm several seconds to generate the effect. She'd be dead in a fraction of a second after the bell rings.

You're also ignoring basic factors - like what Sue will be doing while Storm is busy trying to conjure all this up.

Quibbling

Synchronized can run the gauntlet so that Storm is successful.

If Rachel's TK can shield the car from the Jovian pressure, I don't see why Sue's forcefields can't shield herself as well.

As soon as Sue's forcefield is up and around her, which I imagine is automatically on right off the bat, given all the previous scans showing how they're reflexively turned on without Sue even needing to consciously think, Storm's time is limited.

Originally posted by Smurph
I presented Storm tanking ground zero of an explosion that leveled a castle as evidence of her being able to shield herself.

There are chips of iceman's giant fist flying off of Storm's shield. That's not him melting, that's a barrier to blunt force. The SZZZZLE is the sound of the force field.

It's a quick draw because it depends on whether Storm can attack Sue before Sue shields.

It wasn't an explosion - it was an AOE heat attack. We see the cold barrier already up before the attack, and residual ice afterward. Cold can counter heat, but it doesn't stop a sharp psionic construct being driven into Storm with astronomical force.

"SZZZZLE" is the sound of air or something melting. She created a thermal wind barrier, not a true force field. Or are we just arguing semantics?

That's not a true quick draw by definition, but debating semantics is pointless.

Since we both agree that Sue gets her shield up before Storm can attack, then we're also agreeing that Sue wins.

Originally posted by Glorificus
If Rachel's TK can shield the car from the Jovian pressure, I don't see why Sue's forcefields can't shield herself as well.

As soon as Sue's forcefield is up and around her, which I imagine is automatically on right off the bat, given all the previous scans showing how they're reflexively turned on without Sue even needing to consciously think, Storm's time is limited.

Sue would be virtually incapacitated like Rachel was. Her full focus would be trying to keep the shield up. Storm is then free to launch other attacks.

Storm was containing a nuke when she created that pressure.