Everyone is missing one subtle, but important point. The mother is the Oracle. First, I must assume that Neo, having this conversation with the Architect, fully understands and knows what the Architect is saying (although most of us have had to read the transcript and see the movie like 3x to finally 'get it'😉. If you follow the conversation, Neo basically affirms his understanding of what the Architect is saying all throughout the conversation. My point here is this: if Neo is fully understanding - not necessarily agreeing with - the Architect, which we can presume he does (see below), then he must also be right about the Oracle.
1st statement: Architect explains what Neo is and Neo responds by saying you haven't answered my question. Architect is surprised both his response AND the speed with which Neo responds - this basically PROVES to the Architect and to us that Neo understands what the hell the Architect is saying. 2nd statement: Architect tells Neo there was more than one Matrix and that there were more Ones before him. Neo responds by saying "Either no one told me or no one knew". Architect agrees with his conclusion. 3rd statement: Architect talks about anomoly of the Matrix and Neo affirms his understanding by saying it's about choice. Again, Architect expounds on the problem of choice. 4th statement: Architect talks about ppl who reject the Matrix creating an escalating prob. of disaster and Neo immediately understands that this is about Zion. The Architect agrees and expounds on it some more. 5th statement: Architect talks about attachment to humans in a specific way (love) and Neo understands that he is referring to Trinity. Architect, again, agrees and explains.
If we presume that Neo knows what the Architect is saying, then Neo is right about all of his conclusions throughout this entire conversation, including his referring to the intuitive program as the Oracle! After all, Neo was one of the smartest hackers in the Matrix. You'd think he'd be able to make logical grasps of new information. The Architect's 'please...' only shows his disdain for the humans' mideval reference to an individual who is nothing more than a program. any other explanation is streteching...
yohji> i love the way you can say that Neo was correct every other time, thus he was correct about the Oracle being the Mother, with such conviction, but, alas, it is incorrect...Everytime Neo is right, the Architect AGREES with him...also, if the Oracle's not called 'the Oracle', then WHAT is her NAME?!?! The Architect is saying please to say, 'that menial program? how could you DARE put me and her in the same sentence...? As i was saying..." I can see how one MIGHT think the Architect was saying Neo was right, based on 'please', however, when he says 'as i was saying...' it pretty much clenches it for me...she's not the mother.
the next best choice to "The Mother" would be persephone, for she gives people choices as well. In Reloaded, she gives 3 examples of these.
1- "If u want the keymaker, follow me."
Theres a choice that they were not willing to pass up.
2- "If I dont show u to the keymaker, she kill me. All i want is a kiss."
Once again, another choice where there was actually no other choice. They needed the keymaker.
3- "You can either run to the resteraunt and tell my husband wut i have done or u can just stay there and die."
With that, she also knew that he was in the ladies room. I rest my case. Any questions?🙂
okay jedi and for anyone else that still refuses to accept that the Oracle is the Mother, let's consider the facts about the Mother: 1) The Mother was INITIALLY created to investigate aspects of the human psyche and 2) The Mother is an INTUITIVE program, one less bound by the parameters of perfection.
Fact #1 tells us a couple of things: a) this program had a purpose and scope to study the human mind and b) this program no longer functions in its original capacity to study humans (the word 'initially' is a giveaway). Now, if a program was created to study the human psyche, then it could, by extrapolation and interpretation, predict how individuals and groups of individuals would react to specific situations. So, we could assume that this program could, in essence, predict the future based on human thought and action patterns. Hmm... which person in the movies do we see predict the future with 100% accuracy? Recall the other predictions: to Morpheus - you will find the One; to Trinity - you will fall in love with the One. Even if a program could read the Matrix code, it wouldn't be able to tell the future because humans can make any choice they want - thus the systemic anamoly in the Matrix that the Architect didn't account for in building the 1st Matrix. Only a program that knows and understands humans can make predictions that will likely come true. How did the Oracle predict that Morpheus would find Neo if she didn't understand Morph's unshakable faith, stubborness and persistence? And how did she predict that Trinity would fall in love with Neo if she didn't know Trinity's wants, desires, hopes, dreams, etc. to a t. And this is all even before she met or even know who Neo was! Pretty damn unbelievable for a just a regular program if you ask me.
Additionally, assuming this program were an expert in human psychology, then it would, by virtue of its expertise, not be tied down by the weakness of human emotions - in other words, it wouldn't be a slave to emotions because it would be able to control them perfectly (kinda like how a pshychiatrist/psychologist dissociates themselves from their patients' situations and emotions). No one else in the movies displays an ability to control their emotions as well as the Oracle - she's the best poker player in the movies. This also disproves the highly publicized theory that Persephone is the Mother. Persephone is shown to be nothing but a petty program completely RULED by her emotions. She displays suspiciousness/jealousy when the Mero leaves for the bathroom, knowing full well he's about to get some action. She 'gets even' at the Mero for cheating on her by helping Neo and company. She displays anger at the Mero by calling him a pompous ass or prick. She requests a kiss from Neo to help satisfy her cravings for lost love and sensuality.
Still not a believer?
The fact that this Mother program no longer functions in its original capacity (as explained by the Architect's use of the word 'initially' when describing it) fully explains why the Oracle is on the run from something and has 'many enemies' (i.e. Agents). Fact #2 tells us that this Mother program does not think like a computer and is not bound by a program's inherent logic limitations. This then makes it possible for the program to operate outside the rules of its own programming and therefore, have the ability to work in a capacity other than what it was programmed for. Recall what she says to Neo: 'some programs, when faced with deletion, choose exile'. She is, ironically, telling Neo that she is one of these programs, but poor Neo thinks she's talking generically (it's kinda like how, in Sixth Sense, the little boy was telling Bruce Willis that ghosts don't even know they're dead and poor Bruce doesn't realize that he's one of them). This is the reason why the Oracle is on the run from the Agents. Recall the freeway chase scene in M2, the Agents were after the Keymaker (the 'exile'😉, not Trin or Morpheus.
Though you non-believers might say or think otherwise, all roads lead to the Oracle.
WOW...thats a long explanation...and a long contradiction...you Say the program INITIALLY studied the psyche, THEN point to a program that DOES study the psyche...also, the fact the the Oracle does not show her emotions proves nothing, because we know she HAS them, otherwise, she wouldn't have told Neo more than she shoulda. You disproof of Persephone being the mother actually reinforces the idea that she is MORE, because, assuming that she and Mero are from the original Matrix, and the Mero has changed (which we know to be fact based on Persephone's statement (he used to be different...)), thus we can assume that Persephone has changed as well, from what she was INITIALLY designed to do, to what she DOES....all roads do not lead to the Oracle, unless you can rethink your logic and provide me with better proofs. My statement stands, the Oracle is not the Mother.
Originally posted by yohji74
okay jedi and for anyone else that still refuses to accept that the Oracle is the Mother, let's consider the facts about the Mother: 1) The Mother was INITIALLY created to investigate aspects of the human psyche and 2) The Mother is an INTUITIVE program, one less bound by the parameters of perfection.Fact #1 tells us a couple of things: a) this program had a purpose and scope to study the human mind and b) this program no longer functions in its original capacity to study humans (the word 'initially' is a giveaway). Now, if a program was created to study the human psyche, then it could, by extrapolation and interpretation, predict how individuals and groups of individuals would react to specific situations. So, we could assume that this program could, in essence, predict the future based on human thought and action patterns. Hmm... which person in the movies do we see predict the future with 100% accuracy? Recall the other predictions: to Morpheus - you will find the One; to Trinity - you will fall in love with the One. Even if a program could read the Matrix code, it wouldn't be able to tell the future because humans can make any choice they want - thus the systemic anamoly in the Matrix that the Architect didn't account for in building the 1st Matrix. Only a program that knows and understands humans can make predictions that will likely come true. How did the Oracle predict that Morpheus would find Neo if she didn't understand Morph's unshakable faith, stubborness and persistence? And how did she predict that Trinity would fall in love with Neo if she didn't know Trinity's wants, desires, hopes, dreams, etc. to a t. And this is all even before she met or even know who Neo was! Pretty damn unbelievable for a just a regular program if you ask me.
Additionally, assuming this program were an expert in human psychology, then it would, by virtue of its expertise, not be tied down by the weakness of human emotions - in other words, it wouldn't be a slave to emotions because it would be able to control them perfectly (kinda like how a pshychiatrist/psychologist dissociates themselves from their patients' situations and emotions). No one else in the movies displays an ability to control their emotions as well as the Oracle - she's the best poker player in the movies. This also disproves the highly publicized theory that Persephone is the Mother. Persephone is shown to be nothing but a petty program completely RULED by her emotions. She displays suspiciousness/jealousy when the Mero leaves for the bathroom, knowing full well he's about to get some action. She 'gets even' at the Mero for cheating on her by helping Neo and company. She displays anger at the Mero by calling him a pompous ass or prick. She requests a kiss from Neo to help satisfy her cravings for lost love and sensuality.
Still not a believer?
The fact that this Mother program no longer functions in its original capacity (as explained by the Architect's use of the word 'initially' when describing it) fully explains why the Oracle is on the run from something and has 'many enemies' (i.e. Agents). Fact #2 tells us that this Mother program does not think like a computer and is not bound by a program's inherent logic limitations. This then makes it possible for the program to operate outside the rules of its own programming and therefore, have the ability to work in a capacity other than what it was programmed for. Recall what she says to Neo: 'some programs, when faced with deletion, choose exile'. She is, ironically, telling Neo that she is one of these programs, but poor Neo thinks she's talking generically (it's kinda like how, in Sixth Sense, the little boy was telling Bruce Willis that ghosts don't even know they're dead and poor Bruce doesn't realize that he's one of them). This is the reason why the Oracle is on the run from the Agents. Recall the freeway chase scene in M2, the Agents were after the Keymaker (the 'exile'😉, not Trin or Morpheus.
Though you non-believers might say or think otherwise, all roads lead to the Oracle.
jedi, it's your logic (or maybe your reading skillz) that's flawed, not mine. i never wrote that the oracle CURRENTLY studies the human psyche - she simlpy uses her previously gained expertise in human psychology and emotion to anticipate humans' reactions to situations and basically predict the future. she doesn't study the human psyche any more - she just utilizes it to her advantage. thus, the disctinction b/w INITAL and CURRENT.
secondly, your counter on persephone is weak. how can you explain her petty actions and outburts of emotion by saying that she changed from the original matrix- i mean, after all, she's the supposed expert on human emotion, right? so, why is she acting like a petty little girl? can't the program that was created to investigate the human psyche keep her own emotions in check or has it been so long since she studied the psyche that she slipped up? (yeah, that makes sense...) it's time to face the facts, persephone is NOT the mother.
can't the program that was created to investigate the human psyche keep her own emotions in check or has it been so long since she studied the psyche that she slipped up? (yeah, that makes sense...) it's time to face the facts, persephone is NOT the mother.
actuallyyyyyyyyy humans are flawed in that same way that they CANT keep them in check.. she studies them long enough she takes traits like them.. shes learning about it form humans so why wouldnt she respond in the same way.. oh and if u want more details about persephone check out the trinity mother thread i provide plenty on persephone.. im not saying it is the oracel or it is persephone cause bottom line is we dont know.. but i and others.. jedi have provided good reasoning it very well could be so dont say no your wrong.. just keep trying to find new and better points to make
forum... you're forgetting one thing. Persephone is a program inside the Matrix and therefore, has a purpose inside it. (According to the Oracle, 'we're all here to do what we're all here to do'; according to the Keymaker, 'We do only what we're meant to do'.) Therefore, if her purpose was to STUDY humans, she wouldn't change her internal programming to ACT like humans do, esp. not in such a raw emotional way, because her programming would prevent it.