forum, i guess it's the oracle's purpose, too, to run away from whatever she's running away from, right? also her purpose to 'hire' a martial arts bodyguard to protect her, right? cuz after all, she's just a control.
okay, enough with my sarcasm. yes, the Oracle WAS part of the control and she intially came up with the prophecy to guide the humans to find the One so that he could enter the prime code and reload the matrix all over again (forever and ever)... but not anymore (not sure when). i'm assuming that after having gained understanding of the human psyche, and after studying and manipulating it for so long, she now knows like the councilor does that humans and machines need one another in the long run. she is interested in preserving the future and as a result has gone rogue to help the humans in their battle against the machines. she's a 'believer' that Neo can really save Zion and humanity because of his choices. my other theory on Neo is in one of the other boards and describes how he is able to do what he does which makes the Oracle, a believer.
a program chooses exile b/c programs are self-preserving in nature. until they have fulfilled their purpose, they would choose to be exiled rather than be deleted (i.e. killed).
additionally, programs in the matrix don't have an expiration code built into them and therfore, were not MEANT to be deleted. when they are written, they don't know that newer programs may come to replace them. they simply do what they're programmed to do. if they had a deletion code built-in and knew to be deleted, you wouldn't need agents to track and 'delete' rogue progams, now would you? the architect or whomever was controlling the matrix could simply have them commit suicide since it would be part of their programming.
The programs that were created in the ORIGINAL matrix were CHANGED when they went into the SECOND matrix...this is evident in Mero, all his Minions, so why WOULDN'T it hold true with Persephone...?
The Oracle has a Purpose, it is to create the ONE, to lead the One to the Source, it is to ENSURE THE LONGEVITY OF THE MATRIX...HOWEVER, the Oracle tells Neo, "You've made a believer out of me". what does that have to do with it? it means that the Oracle knows the path Neo will choose, and his belief, his conviction, has proven to her he can pull it off...i didnt used to believe this, but i do. Also, Persephone is an Emotional vampire, meaning she leeches emotions off of Humans, so wouldn't it make sense that that emotion would change part of her coding as well? what else would be the point, now that she is rogue?
each program has a purpose, both before and AFTER they go rogue...the Oracle, Mero, Persephone, Keymaker, Smith, etc, ALL are still there BECAUSE THEY STILL HAVE A JOB TO DO!!! they do not CHOOSE to stay in the matrix, they are made to believe they do, when the simple truth is, they have no choice in the matter.
Oh, she didn't HIRE Seraph to guard her, it is his purpose, for she is the future, until Neo goes to the Architect...NOW, his purpose is to protect the future, which is NEO...thus, he leaves the oracle and goes with TRIN and Morph to get NEO...
jedi, your post basically affirmed what i wrote previously. anyways, i have a slightly different theory about seraph that coincides with my premise that the oracle was the Mother and that she has now since gone rogue to help the humans regain control. he is nothing more than her (the Oracle's) whipping boy and so, does her bidding in helping the humans, whether it's with finding Neo or any other matter.
Jedi
I think your mostly correct, one thing I don't agree with is your thought that the Oracle has gone rouge and believes in the human resistance. Especially if your theory is that they are programmed to have no choice in the matter of what they do. (ie. They believe that they've gone rouge but they still have a job to do)
This is problematic because the Oracle would have to be rouge for each version of the matrix for one.
Secondly, the Oracle is designed as an intuitive program, to collect data about the human psyche, with a secondary purpose which is to propagate the path of the one. Meaning that without the Oracle there would be no one, but the anomaly would still exists which would wreck havoc on the matrix. So, if she has no choice but to do as she is programmed, there is no reason for her to believe that she has gone rouge - thus there is no reason for her to be rouge. According to your post.
Thirdly, as you posted:
the Oracle tells Neo, "You've made a believer out of me". what does that have to do with it?
Remembering that the Oracle is just an intuitive program that was designed to understand humans in such a way that we cannot even imagine, and she is supposed to propagate the path of the one, you have to remember that you cannot take what she says at face value. As Morpheus said "Try not to think of it in terms of right and wrong." and then later "She told you exactly what you needed to hear." The oracle does not necessarily believe anything, but, through a deep understanding of how the human mind works, knows what to say, when to say it, and how to say the things that someone would need to hear to lead them where she wants them.
Remember what she said:
Oracle: "And don't worry about the vase"
Neo: "What vase.."
Oracle: "That vase."
Neo: "I'm.."
Oracle: "I said don't worry about it. What will really bake your noodle later on is would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"
That last line sums up her entire roll for all three movies. She tells Neo, and others, what they need to hear to lead them to the places they need to be in order to set certain events on course. She told Morpheus that he would find the one, well why didn't she tell Niobe? Because Niobe's character isn't a fanatic or obsessive. She wouldn't have set a crusade to find the one. She told Neo that he was not the one, that he was "waiting for another life or something. I don't know." but that they'd be lost without Morpheus. This set him on the path to save Morpheus, and led him, inevitably to his death at the hands of Smith, after which, he realized that his self inside the matrix had no bearing on him and that his thought processes fire faster than the actual computer system - creating the one.
But the Oracle would also have to be the mother of the matrix for the very reason's that I just stated that I believe you're wrong about. As an intuitive program, she understood that, if given a choice, most people would blindly accept the programming of the matrix, but if they were not they would reject the programming because human nature leads us to follow blindly the easy choice, and to rebel if we are not given a choice.
It's the same principle of how politics and con-men work. If you were given two choices, you were then told that the first one was the right one, and that you could look it up for yourself if you wanted - 99 times out of 100 you wouldn't. You would trust it because you've been taught to believe what you are told if someone can provide evidence. The fact that the suggest evidence, in this case, suffices.
Originally posted by vizman
The beauty of the MATRIX so far, is that 'MOTHER' could be either of the two ladies suggested... and still be plausible; Just as Zion may still be in the matrix... or it may be the real world. My bet is that Persephone is the mother. Lets go back to the statement from the Architect that was used to support the claim that the ORACLE is the mother, from the original thread"....Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother...."
this stands out: CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE HUMAN PSYCHE
I also site this statement as support for my theory. Who is Persephone if not a very SENSUAL being?! (I have to agree with you, Sifer) And I believe she is a program - a lesser program, as described by the Architect - that specialized in human emotions. which indeed is a aspect of human psyche that is VERY different from the supreme logic of the Architech. And what more powerful emotion than LOVE?!! That is what was missing from the Architects first attempts at the matrix. That is what makes the 'world go round'. The Oracle is wise and mystical - but be honest, she no lover. And she would admit this herself - she always has 'bad news' for Neo. No. The Architect discovered through Persephone's INTUITION that an emotional attachment would be the trick to keep 99% of the human race inline. That is why I believe she wanted a Kiss. The Merovingian used to be like Neo, she said. But like many powerful men with raging hormones (think about a certain politician) - can lose TRUE LOVE and go for the latest fling (the blonde cake-baited floozy). Face it - she is used not only by Merovingian, but by the Architect and the Matrix itself, and was never reciprocated. Thus the kiss - to SAMPLE the product of her existence. The real deal. No. She is not so much the 'MOTHER' as she is the 'Wet Nurse' that gave birth to the secret of humanity (Love), only to watch the end results amounting to no more than CAUSALITY.
Its the most plausible reason i have heard for the 'Mother of the Matrix' stunt since the film was released.
Jedi, can you clarify your statement on Seraph? You said:
"No, the Seraph specifically said "i protect that which matters most", which is the survival of both races, thus, the future. He doesn't work for the Oracle, he protects her, because he is programmed to..."
So, you say that Seraph protects that which matters most (i'm not including your interpretation of the Future here) and then you go on to say that he was programmed to protect the Oracle. With those two premises, the only conclusion I can draw is that he protects the Oracle because she matters most. But I know this isn't what you meant... 😉
What I'm more interested in is how you account for Seraph's absence in M1 when the Oracle is clearly NOT in hiding and living life somewhat leisurely in her apt (baking cookies and all and entertaining guests). If he was so interested in protecting the Future, why wasn't he present when Neo first met the Oracle? Why is it that the exact moment when he states that 'he protects that which matters most' also coincides with when he opens the back door and we immediately see the Oracle. Hmmm....
If, as you and some others say, Seraph was programmed to protect the Future (i.e. survival of both races), can you pls explain why the Architect would make a program like Seraph to deliberately subvert the entire system of control? I mean, what self preserving species (human and machines included) would create a program that is supposed to threaten the maker's very existence and facilitate its ultimate demise? Maybe the Architect slipped... umm, not likely.
I believe Seraph to be nothing more than a tool used by the Oracle. If you go along with the presumption that the Oracle is the Mother (a theory I know you don't subscribe to), then she would clearly be able to 'create' such a program. This program would be intended to protect her and her agendas since she has now gone rogue and believes that Neo is the salvation of both humans and manchines. The modern day Jesus (see my previous theory on the Neo forum).
no that is what he meant yohji.. the oracle did matter most at one point to the future.. because smith had grown so powerfull.. and now she is not the key to the future neo is... if he was her "whipping boy" she would of had him stay with her cause she knew smith was comming.. but she knows the future matters more, the future of both worlds not her existence... seraphy doesnt deliberately subvert the entire system of control.. he is a contegincy plan.. if the oracle died neo wouldnt of reached the source.. if smith is left unchecked both worls will be ruined.. seraph is saving the machines and humans.. he protects the future 🙂
we're basically saying the same thing, except in different ways. as i mentioned previously, i believe seraph was 'created' to protect the Oracle and her ideas/agendas which, right now, are to ensure the survival of the humans and machines. i just place less empahsis on his role than you guys seem to do...
thank you forumcrew, nicely put.
meta> no, not necessarily. the Oracle did not have to go rogue in each iteration, because the anomaly was not the one to break the cycle. thus, "you've made a believer out of me", or, you've made me believe you are the ONE...Every other Anomaly has failed in this aspect.
Re: Proof of Oracle being the mother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CrazyShady
During the conversation between Neo & the Architect:
B] Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."
Thankyou! Goodness!...