storm v phoenix who would win

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not my opinion, it's just the facts.

Originally posted by Mr Master
hey if you can post a scan of a Multiversal feat,
or tell me in what issue I can find one,
I'll gladly agree.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But if you're using Phoenix holding a Timeline (which isn't a whole Universe)

Originally posted by Mr Master
as a Multiversal feat,

then I have to disagree.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And I'm by no means trying to change your mind. But only On Panel proof,
and even better if it's accompanied by a corresponding official Handbook bio,
will change mine.

Originally posted by Mr Master
A Timeline, certified on panel, as we know they are 150 Years in the Future (a 616 Timeline)
and certified in Two Official Handbooks as being such.[b/]

Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]I agree, all Timelines are Tiny (Baby) Universes connected to a Parent (Whole) Universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is why the Phoenix Consciousness said:

"[B]It lost it's Parents when Unity broke out across the Megasystems"[/b]

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't think I'm demeaning the feat friend.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm just clearing up what happened in truth in Here Comes Tomorrow.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If I were demeaning the Phoenix's feats,
I would demean her truly full blown Universal feat when she destroyed
that Alternate Universe in a What If.

Which I conceded did happen, because it did, on panel and in the bio.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not claiming that it wasn't a Universe, I'm simply stating that it wasn't a Whole Universe,
which is a fact according to Marvel,
because again, it was a [B]Timeline belonging to 616, 150 years in the Future.[/b]

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree, just not a whole Universe.

Whole Universe > Universal Timeline

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree ... Universal Timeline (Tiny Reality) > Galaxy

I agree, the Phoenix is definitely more powerful than one of Eternity's countless Aspects.

I have to disagree, because it wasn't just a threat.

In this story, the entire World was afflicted by Sublime,
surely another Hero (if one existed) would have been involved.

As all entire Earth span stories involve multiple characters from separate books.

Or how about when the avengers fought ultrion and only the avengers showed up?

Or when the Zodiac attacked and only the new warriors showed up?

Or the times when only a certain team dealt with a certain group/villian in their own little book?

Or its also quite a bit like superman having numerous powers to deal with a given threat but either "forgets" or just doesn't use everything that's available?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well then cool.

But you know, you're re-defining the term Multiversal,
like you told me Marvel was doing with the term Omniverse.

Its really not an unreasonable stretch to think that a person who can hold a universe almost absent mindendly (not paying attention to it the entire time, even looking away for a moment with no visual or mentioned strain) she couldn't possibly deal with more than one?

Originally posted by Mr Master
but we'll leave it at that.

A baby, as stated on panel above.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"[B]It lost it's Parents when Unity broke out across the Megasystems"[/b]

Originally posted by Mr Master
Only it wasn't just a hyperbolic quote.

Originally posted by Mr Master
He was depicted artistically On Panel performing the feat.

Originally posted by Rutog98
Eternity is the manifestation of life-force of the universe, or perhaps you missed this panel:

Originally posted by Rutog98
http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ff550dcp0024sr6.jpg

Hence, when he was dying, he would have taken the universe with him. Eternity is the sum of the universe, hence in the IF arc, the real point was Thanos trying to replace him. Notice, Eternity was more powerful than the rest of the cosmics put together (save Living Tribunal). Storm contained the essense of Eternity. 😄

Though I don't get why Eternity didn't just grab a phoenix or some other high level being to fix himself like he normally does...

Guess that's cause none existed?

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm well aware of who and what eternity is.

Oh dear... this should be interesting... Mr Master if you want to do the honors...

Though I don't get why Eternity didn't just grab a phoenix or some other high level being to fix himself like he normally does...

Guess that's cause none existed?

Because the point of this story was to show Storm's power level. Maybe this was beyond the PF and Storm was needed. 😄

this entire thread is ridiculous if people think storm can hang with the phoenix

Originally posted by Rutog98
Because the point of this story was to show Storm's power level. Maybe this was beyond the PF and Storm was needed. 😄

Originally posted by lordboo
this entire thread is ridiculous if people think storm can hang with the phoenix

The world is supposed to be full of ridiculous people yet somehow you only seem to find them on the net. 😛

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The world is supposed to be full of ridiculous people yet somehow you only seem to find them on the net. 😛

Originally posted by Creshosk
No, its just easier to find them online as nobody has to be polite and they can just be themselves without worry about repercussions.

Very true. 😛

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The world is supposed to be full of ridiculous people yet somehow you only seem to find them on the net. 😛

Originally posted by lordboo
is that at a dig at me 😕

Nope...wasn't meant to be. Just pointing out something. Cresh pretty much summed it up.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Nope...wasn't meant to be. Just pointing out something. Cresh pretty much summed it up.

So have we all agreed that storm is not beating the phoenix

Originally posted by Creshosk
[ and your interprtations of them making them your opinions.

They're Marvel established facts. But as you wish.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Already stated my thoughts on what constitutes one.

Cool.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You can say it wasn't, but that's quibbling. Its still a universe, like it or not.

Ok.

Originally posted by Creshosk
yes because being greater than a universe means that you are less than a universe... oh wait...

?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Sure because logic and reasoning are such nusances...

I'm not saying you're wrong, but without any kind of proof, I don't make claims.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Which totally over rides onpanel evidence cause handbooks are always right even when they're wrong most of the time...

It was stated on panel as well. So they must both be wrong.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Tiny universes are still universes. Just as a baby elephant is still an elephant or a baby human is still a human.

True, which is why I have never said that it wasn't a Universe.
I said it was a Universal Timeline (a Tiny Reality/Universe)

As for the analogy,
I'm sure if one could lift an Elephant,
lifting a baby Elephant, would far easier than lifting an Adult Elephant.

An there lies the difference between a Timeline (baby) and a Whole Universe. (Parent)

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah, and its still the same thing that its parents were.
It might not be as big but that doesn't change what it is.

No doubt, but again,
you keep making it seem as though I've said it wasn't a Universe.

But what's easier, holding a baby in your hands, or a full grown adult?

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'd hope not. Because if you were doing it intentionally you'd be trolling.

Touché

Originally posted by Creshosk
Or your interpritation of it.

My interpretation?

Cresh,
I posted the official Bio, and the on panel depiction.

Both correspond with each other.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You also seem to downplay Phoenixes importance whn it comes to the creation of the alternate timeline and the preservation of the 616 timeline. Ignoring the fact that if it weren't for phoenix at that point in time then 616 would have become the "here comes tomorrow" timeline. And it was her forcing scott to stay with emma that severed the timeline from 616.

Not exactly.

Here Comes Tomorrow began in issue #150.

Jean severed Reality 15104 in issue #154
........................................................................................

Scott diverged that Timeline on his own,
far before Phoenix even thought of severing it:

Because the Reality in her hands was already Reality 15104,
it became that Reality the moment Scott set in motion the chain of events
that led to Here Comes Tomorrow.
........................................................................................

Here's the On Panel evidence: (verification of the bio statements)
........................................................................................

Jean dies on page 30 of New-Xmen #150:

........................................................................................

Page 31 of New-Xmen #150 - and 150 YEARS have passed.

........................................................................................

Page 01 in New X-Men #151 - starts at 150 Years in the Future
(NOW it's Alternate Timeline/Reality 15104)

........................................................................................

This is what lead 616 to Diverge into this Alternate Reality 15104

Page 19 in New X-Men #151 ... 150 Years Earlier on Earth 616

........................................................................................

Scott decides to quit.

........................................................................................

Phoenix intervenes by reaching into this moment 150 Years ago on 616
and changes Scott's mind. (in issue #154)

"Live Scott"

In order to ensure that 616 would not Diverge
into the Here Comes Tomorrow Future of Reality 15104.
........................................................................................

continues in the next post ....

........................................................................................

But in fact,
Jean didn't even know that she had ensured that "Possible Alternate Future"
from ever existing:

"Unknowingly ensuring that at least one apocalyptic Future would not come to fruition"
........................................................................................

So ... On Panel and in correspondence with the Official Handbook:

1.
Scott inadvertently created Reality 15104 (Not Phoenix)
with his decision to leave the X-Men/Emma and life.

2.
Scott also altered that "Possible Alternate Future" of Reality 15104 (Not 616)
with his decision to stay with the X-Men/Emma and life.

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future OF Reality - 15104

3.
Jean did in fact, force Scott to make said decision,
but the power of influence over that Reality laid in Scott's mind.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Uh huh... that makes it sound like you brought up the What if just so you wouldn't be preceived as doing that. But we both know that's not the case.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

I brought up the What If,
cause that's the only issue where Phoenix has ever destroyed a Universe,
a Whole one at that.

Originally posted by Creshosk
As while I may not agree with your interpritations you do not intentionally misinterprate or interprate differently the feats you talk about.

I guess you're saying that I'm being in honest in seeing it the way I see it,
without any agenda.

This I appreciate, thanx, cause it's true.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Certianly sounds like you're trying to downplay the fact that it was a universe.

And it was still a universe. add the modifiers on that you want, it doesn't change what it was.

I agree, just that specifically it was a Tiny Universe,
which is far easier to mess with than an entire whole Universe.

Although, I do concede, Phoenix can destroy an entire Universe,
but Here Comes Tomorrow doesn't prove that,
the What If does.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Like with phoenix dealing with D'ken and the M'kron crystal?

Or how about when the avengers fought ultrion and only the avengers showed up?

Or when the Zodiac attacked and only the new warriors showed up?

None of which affected the entire Earth let alone the Universe.

Those were threats,

unlike Sublime who did affect the entire Earth,
the entire Earth was under Sublime's plague.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Why? Because I felt that she dealt with the univere she was holding with such ease that she wasn't having to concentrate to deal with it that she might be able to deal with more than one at a time even if the same size level?

Its really not an unreasonable stretch to think that a person who can hold a universe almost absent mindendly (not paying attention to it the entire time, even looking away for a moment with no visual or mentioned strain) she couldn't possibly deal with more than one?

Yea, but let's not forget that in order for her to affect that Timeline (Tiny Reality)
in her hands,
she had to be withIN the White Hot Room:

"Shifting herself into the Phoenix Force's Home Dimension,
Jean was able to heal the wounded orphan universe"

Originally posted by Creshosk
If I were to hold a sugar glider in my hands, and it was no effort, are you to say that because I had never held two sugar gliders that I couldn't? Even given how easy it was for me to hold the one? I've held a sugar glider in my hands, it was easy. I think I could hold two based on how easy it was.

Cool,

try holding a 1000lb Barrel of sugar though in your hands (and I'm being generous)

I'm being generous cause it would take an imaginable number of Timelines,
to make up One single Whole Universe.

Remember, a Timeline represents One Second of Time withIN a Whole Universe,
in Marvel.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix intervenes by reaching into this moment 150 Years ago on 616
and changes Scott's mind.

"Live Scott"

In order to ensure that 616 would not Diverge
into the Here Comes Tomorrow Future of Reality 15104.
........................................................................................

continues in the next post ....

With out her forcing him to stay the events of reality 15104 would have played out. But they didn't in 616 because in 616 Jean forced Scott to stay with Emma.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Its this event which causes the divergence. if she had not done this what do you suppose would have happened? What would have happened to 616? The reality where scott stayed with Emma via being forced to do so by Jean?

With out her forcing him to stay the events of reality 15104 would have played out. But they didn't in 616 because in 616 Jean forced Scott to stay with Emma.

Not exactly,

it was never a certain Future, just a "Possible" one:

"Unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future
would not come to fruition"

There are endless "Possibilities" ... this was One of them.

Originally posted by Mr Master
........................................................................................

But in fact,
Jean didn't even know that she had ensured that "[B]Possible Alternate Future"
from ever existing:

"[/B]Unknowingly[/B] ensuring that at least one apocalyptic Future would not come to fruition"
........................................................................................

So ... On Panel and in correspondence with the Official Handbook:

1.
Scott inadvertently created Reality 15104 (Not Phoenix)
with his decision to leave the X-Men/Emma and life.

2.
Scott also altered that "Possible Alternate Future" of Reality 15104 (Not 616)
with his decision to stay with the X-Men/Emma and life.

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future OF Reality - 15104

3.
Jean did in fact, force Scott to make said decision,
but the power of influence over that Reality laid in Scott's mind.[/b]

616 he would have left, and beast would have faced the problems he did and that whole chain of events. In fact that's what happened. then when Jean reached into the past and made scott stay that's what caused that future timeline to diverge from 616.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

I brought up the What If,
cause that's the only issue where Phoenix has ever destroyed a Universe,
a Whole one at that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I guess you're saying that I'm being in honest in seeing it the way I see i,
without any agenda.

This I appreciate, thanx, cause it's true.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree, just that specifically it was a Tiny Universe,
which far easier to mess with than an entire whole Universe.

Although, I do concede, Phoenix can destroy an entire Universe,
but Here Comes Tomorrow doesn't prove that,
the What If does.

Originally posted by Mr Master
None of which affected the entire Earth let alone the Universe.

Those were threats,

unlike Sublime who did affect the entire Earth,
the entire Earth was under Sublime's plague.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, but let's not forget that in order for her to affect that Timeline (Tiny Reality)
in her hands,
she had to be withIN the White Hot Room:

"[B]Shifting herself into the Phoenix Force's Home Dimension,
Jean was able to heal the wounded orphan universe"[/b]

Concerning the Battlefield
Unless otherwise stated by the thread originator, the standard distance between combatants will be .5 kilometers in line of sight at the onset of battle, and there will be an implied "buzz" to signify the onset of battle. It will be assumed combatants are primed to go at the gun.

Also, all characters, regardless of where the fight takes place, or what universe/medium they are native to, will have full access to their abilities at optimum efficiency as they are depicted in their native universes. It will be assumed that each character fights as they are normally presented regardless of battle locale. This means that, for example, Flash will in fact have SpeedForce abilities if the battle took place in Marvel Manhattan. Battles will always take place on an assumed equal playing field.

Phoenix would have access to her full abilities regardless of the battlefeild

Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool,

try holding a 1000lb Barrel of sugar though in your hands (and I'm being generous)

I'm being generous cause it would take an imaginable number of Timelines,
to make up One single Whole Universe.

Remember, a Timeline represents One Second of Time withIN a Whole Universe,
in Marvel.

She was holding a universe, she was holiding it with ease. Do you think she'd have trouble holding another universe just like it at the same time she was holding the one?

Do you feel that she'd be able to hold two tiny universes (which are still universes) at the same time?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not exactly,

it was never a certain Future, just a "Possible" one:

"[B]Unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future
would not come to fruition"

There are endless "Possibilities" ... this was One of them. [/B]

You didn't answer any of the question. If Phoenix had not forced him to stay, he would have left and the events would have played out in 616 like they did in 15104, do you agree or disagree?

Originally posted by Creshosk
[ and had she not the events of 15104 would have played out in 616.

616 he would have left, and beast would have faced the problems he did and that whole chain of events. In fact that's what happened. then when Jean reached into the past and made scott stay that's what caused that future timeline to diverge from 616.

That's what I'm saying you didn't bering it up just to sound like you weren't a phoenix detractor. cause I know you're not, you do tend to downplay her feats but I don't sense any malevolant intent within your words.

Yeah. Unlike the storm boys who seem to try and make storm win whatever it takes.
Not even if its two tiny universes?

Still doesn't change my point. Other heroes could have come in and helped, they didn't. does this mean that they didn't exist? Like in the recent storm housing the essence of eternity. Does that mean that nothing else existed that could have fixed the problem? Given that other phoenixes have solved similar problems in the past, as have other high level beings. But this time, none of those who have in the past did. Does that mean they didn't exist?

And KMC forum rules state that much like Flash has to be within DCU to access his speedforce powers

We'll go on forever on the rest so we'll just agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Phoenix would have access to her full abilities regardless of the battlefeild

Which would be out of character,
cause she's never held a Timeline before outside of the WHR.

She did however destroy an entire Alternate Universe,
so I guess it doesn't really matter.

In a battle it's not a pissing contest, it's a battle,
(destruction would be more favorable I believe)

Originally posted by Creshosk
Did it look like she was straining? She even turns her head to talk to another phoenix in there. Your analogy is flawed.

She was holding a universe, she was holiding it with ease. Do you think she'd have trouble holding another universe just like it at the same time she was holding the one?

My analogy was in response to yours.

You said you held a sugar glider in your hands and it was easy,
making you sure you could hold two gliders.

I agree with this.

The Sugar gliders = the Timelines. (Tiny Universes)

I then said,
but if one tries to hold a 1000lb Barrel of sugar in one's hands,
would that be easy, or even possible for the cat holding one or even two gliders?

1000lb Barrel of sugar = a whole Universe.

I also said,
I was being generous by limiting it to 1000lbs,
because after all,
every second of Time in a Whole Universe represents a Timeline,
so imagine how many Timelines it would take to sum up a Whole Universe.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Do you feel that she'd be able to hold two tiny universes (which are still universes) at the same time?

Logically, within the WHR I'm sure she could.

I just have a problem with "which are still universes"
cause technically they're a far cry from being such. (atleast as in Whole)

A Timeline is a baby Universe which = to (One second in Time) in a Whole Universe.

That's an unimaginable difference from the whole Universe.

Just sayin.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You didn't answer any of the question. If Phoenix had not forced him to stay, he would have left and the events would have played out in 616 like they did in 15104, do you agree or disagree?

It's possible, but not certain.

Like the bio said,

"ensuring that atleast One apocalyptic Future would not come to fruition"

That was one scenerio, of a countless amount of "possible" scenerios.

Remember Reality 15104,
was already created 3 issues before Phoenix severed it's Future due to Scott.

Phoenix did not sever the Future of 616, she severed the Future of 15104.