Is "Cut Content", specifically TLSRCM, to be considered Canon?

Started by Selenial9 pages

Is "Cut Content", specifically TLSRCM, to be considered Canon?

Often when discussing The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod, unfinished episodes from Star Wars: The Clone Wars, or plot points that were never finished due to the Disney reshuffle from PT to OT eras, people fight tooth and nail that unfinished content is not to be considered canon.

The forum does not have an overarching consensus on the subject, so every debate in which this material is used devolves into a repeat of every other debate on the subject of what is considered canonical. I'd like to present the arguments of the "canon" crowd in this thread in a somewhat conclusive statement as to why they must be considered canon. Anyone who has a differing opinion may reply, debate, and help reach an overarching consensus on what this forum thinks.

I understand we'll never reach a phase where these things are not debated in threads, but hopefully this thread will help to remove clutter and bring the forum back to a point where the characters themselves can actually be debated.

First:

Cut Content as a whole.

Leland Che discussed Canon breakdown on the Star Wars: Message Boards way back when, in 2007. He had this to say:

"The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else.

In this he shows that Lucasarts view scripts as canon, as much as they do the final product. If this is the policy used by the Holocron for G-Canon, it's certainly the same for canon tiers below that. Especially given his words on C canon being "everything else".

This was further clarified recently, credit to Beniboybling for the quotes:

"We consider it to have happened so that's how we inform the writing in Rebels because that's the history that these characters carry in their heads."
"We shared with her [E.K. Johnston] all the stuff we are sharing with you now, even more so. So that when you read this book and you're wondering, wow there's a reference to a fight with Maul, there's a reference to the Siege of Mandalore, we thought it was important for you to understand that she's just not inventing this from whole cloth. The author really worked with Dave and us to find out where Ahsoka is in this point in her life."

This mindset fits with Leland Che's analysis that Deleted Scenes are Canon:

Yes, unless they conflict with something else seen in the films or if the reasoning behind deleting the scene keeps it from being continuity.

So how does this fit in with The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod (Seeing as almost all other cut content is conclusively canonized with these quotes).

So far, we have heard that:
[list][*]Script Notes are Canon
[*]Deleted Scenes are Canon unless deleted for continuity reasons
[*]Authors continue to write characters based off scenes that never made it into the public domain.[/list]

Addressing the first point, the script notes were released with the official game in a text file that anyone who bought the game can view. In said text file, it explains how every scene was originally supposed to go down. That's why when restored Content modders create scenes like Traya butchering 20 Sith Assassins, and strangling Sion, they're reading it straight from the script. The script for that scene says the following:

"{Choking}Why... have you returned?{Calm}Why have you returned?Because now I understand why the exile did what he did. There is much to be done.{CUTSCENE 1: Gameplay Programmer: This cutscene takes place on a level similar to 903. It should be a sight of Kreia walking through the halls, silently. Dwell on her for about 3 seconds.}{Gameplay Programmer: In the next scene, cut to a shot of Kreia from behind, with Dark Side assassins materializing behind her, whispering - there should be almost up to 20, enough to make the audience go, "oh crap."}{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a camera of Kreia's face, smiling. She does not turn around as the assassins advance.}{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to black, play Kreia's stinger - I want this to be a "flash of black" like a quick cut in a movie.}{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a scene of Kreia still walking along the same path, but ALL the assassins are lying dead on the ground.}[Gameplay Programmer: Puts Sion in a Force Crush, rises him into the air.][Fade to Black.]"

These modders are not creating their own story, they are telling the Story how Obsidian originally intended, which moves me on to the second bullet point.

Obsidian did not delete these scenes for continuity reasons. Every scene shown in TSLRCM fits with the overall story and does not drastically change the finished product in any way. The loopholes left by the scenes are never closed, on Malachor the party may not show up in the vanilla game, but they're never explained as being anywhere else. Bao Dur never makes it to the HK factory in the original game, but we still know that he died and HK is missing.

These scenes were cut due to time constraints, as Chris Avellone explains here:

"There would have been substantial penalties had we not have made that date,"

And Feargus Urquhart explains here:

"What happened was—and as a lot of these things happen, no one means anything nefarious, no one means anything badly or anything like that—what happened was we were on the track to get done for Christmas, and the game was looking really good, I think there was some surprise within LucasArts that we were doing as good a job as we were. I think there were some parts of LucasArts that were worried that ‘Oh, this new developer and they're gonna **** it up like all new developers **** everything up.'

"And so in early 2004 they took a look and they were like, ‘Wow!' Their QA was playing it, and they were like, ‘This has a lot of potential: let's move it out, let's give it time.' So they moved it out to the next year."

"On our side we didn't make sure that we had the contract changed, and then post-E3 I think financially something happened—I don't know what it was. And we got the call and they said it has to be done for Christmas... Again, I don't think this is anything nefarious, it just happened. Some of the onus is on us: we didn't get the contract changed. So we had to make this decision: get in trouble or get it done."

So they were forced to cut the unfinished areas of the game. In the same interview as Avellone, the lead programmer Anthony Davis says this of TSLRCM:

"One of the things we would talk about as the various Sith Restoration projects went on was just how lucky we were that the game was so well received by some great guys like you two guys, you would fix that which we could not fix. We were not allowed to. We're just - we're really appreciative of that.

You helped complete the experience for many people. Many people who get the game for the first time, like from a Steam sale or whatever, their friends are going to tell them, 'Yeah, go get The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod, put that on their first - that's the way it was intended to be.' And that's correct. And just, really, thank you guys from the bottom of my heart, I mean it."

So, TL;DR: Obisidan supports TLSRCM as it tells Kotor II how it was supposed to be told. All additions are supported by script notes and scripts for the deleted scenes, which according to all executives at LucasArts, are considered canon.

There is absolutely no reason or logic behind not counting TSLRCM as canon, other than an attempt at underrating Kotor II characters.

TSLRCM is canon. Deal with it.

👆

Shit thread tbh

No, it's not canon, but then again, neither is KotOR II, so literally no one cares. The problem is, some of you people try to use every deleted scene, completely ignoring some weren't removed just because of time constraints.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The problem is, some of you people try to use every deleted scene, completely ignoring some weren't removed just because of time constraints.

Quote? How do you have the ability to define what is, and is not, only not in the final game due to time constraints? Every edit is supported by the scripts that were released with the game.

Who cares, its still non-canon.

It isn't part of Legends either.

Like that shit with Ahsoka fighting a Rancor?

That never happened.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Who cares, its still non-canon.

It isn't part of Legends either.

Like that shit with Ahsoka fighting a Rancor?

That never happened.

Ah so you're conceding.

Cool 🙂

Originally posted by Selenial
Ah so you're conceding.

Cool 🙂

That makes no sense.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
That makes no sense.

Responding to several quotes by LucasArts officials, authors and canon policies with an opinion is the equivalent of a concession.

I'm sorry you got so eviscerated, but next time just pretend you don't see the thread and carry on. It's less embarrassing 🙂

Originally posted by Selenial
Quote? How do you have the ability to define what is, and is not, only not in the final game due to time constraints? Every edit is supported by the scripts that were released with the game.

I'm not talking about this mod, although I'll look into that later, I'm talking about certain people named AncientPower going on about how powerful Atris is because she was intended to be Darth Traya at one point.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not talking about this mod, although I'll look into that later, I'm talking about certain people named AncientPower going on about how powerful Atris is because she was intended to be Darth Traya at one point.

Fair enough, but I can only speak for the arguments I've made. I don't actually recall the discussion you're referring to.

Do you agree that any scenes from the Game Files are Legends Canon then? mmm

Eh, on the one hand, I don't give a shit about authorial intent. On the other, I haven't played KotOR II, without TSLRCM, since 2005. I don't actually know the story without it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Eh, on the one hand, I don't give a shit about authorial intent. On the other, I haven't played KotOR II, without TSLRCM, since 2005. I don't actually know the story without it.

Fair enough, I understand both of those feelings.

I struggle to stomach author quotes about their characters relative to the rest of the universe, especially if we're talking direct comparisons between different characters. I do however respect an author's opinions on their own character or clarification on things they were trying to do with their material.

I guess at this point we've reached the question of what counts as "authorial intent" and what is an official statement of support. They did release their script notes, so at that point it's a source in the public domain that doesn't contradict the original game, merely go deeper.

I touched on it in the original post, unlike the Rancor incident from the TCW film (that I concede on, btw) none of the plot holes are covered up. Traya, for example, dominating Zez Kai El on Nar Shaddaa isn't covered up. We know Zez came, was stopped and never arrived... we just don't know why. It's the same with Bao Dur and the HK Factory, it's the same with Traya force choking Visas on the way into the Jedi Council Chamber on Dantooine. We just know Traya came in, and we have no knowledge on where Visas was...

It's almost like the game is a film, and the script is the novel released which expands on said film.

They don't contradict each other at all, I don't quite understand the issue people have mmm

Lmfao, she was powerful because she had dozens of Sith holocrons, not because she was meant to take the moniker of Traya.

That's an even more retarded argument, but then again, it's not the one you made, so okay.

Ah yes, if Fresh doesn't agree, everything is cancer.

I think it definitely depends on the content itself and the circumstances behind it. The Kotor 2 restored content seems pretty solid in that it was indeed intended to be in the game. The lead developer said that the content in the mod was the intended experience.

Other stuff is much less arguable imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think it definitely depends on the content itself and the circumstances behind it.

👆

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lmfao, she was powerful because she had dozens of Sith holocrons, not because she was meant to take the moniker of Traya.
Sith Holocrons = Power.

King Adas strongest Force User confirmed.

Chee says that deleted scenes are canon unless they contradict existing continuity, applying that logic to KOTOR II cut content, anything that contradicts the vanilla game (i.e. Kreia ragdolling the masters instead of just draining them) should be considered non-canon, but I agree there is no logic behind considering shit non-canon when it isn't contradicted.

Problem is however deleted content, and even fan-made content, is readily used as evidence without any context given, so its important that if used it can be backed up with some proof that it would have made it into the final game.

Finally, anyone who treats TLSRCM as canon, should treat the unwritten Ahsoka story arcs as canon too. 🙂