Re: ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Some people believe Kenobi only won because Anakin was conflicted and emotional. Others believe Kenobi would always beat Anakin because of his style and the fact that he knew Anakin in n out. So I figured I'd use peak anakin vs. Master Kenobi
I don't recall Obi-wan beating Anakin.
But I do recall him beating Darth Vader.
Kenobi can handle Pre-suit Vader, but Zone Anakin would murder him.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and the fact that he knew Anakin in n out.
I've also said this a million times before, and every time someone makes that ^ above statement, they sound like a moron.
Obi-wan and Anakin knew each other inside and out as fighters - it's a double-edged sword; a two-way street.
That should be overly obvious.
It would either give both of them an advantage, or neither of them an advantage, where that's concerned.
Obi-wan was fighting a different person than Anakin - he fought Vader; same body, different Persona.
If he had fought the same Anakin that overcame Dooku - Kenobi would have been murdered.
Re: Re: ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin
Originally posted by BattlemasterObi had better have a lava river and a slightly high embankment handy to goad Vader in to jumping over. The only reason he survived his duel with Vader were those two things. In a flat-planed, sterile environment, Vader would defeat Kenobi.
But I do recall him beating Darth Vader.Kenobi can handle Pre-suit Vader
look, just because sideous gave anakin the name 'vader' doesnt mean that anakin was a totally different person. anakins emotions are not an excuse for him losing to obi wan. its a weakness.
And even if it was an excuse, what about obi wans thoughts? He has just come to realise that is long time padawan has just turned to the dark side. wouldnt he be reluctant to kill anakin?
in my opinion, obi wan would defeat anakin any day.
Originally posted by mnat801He can. It's Obi-Wan who needs a leveled terrain tilted in his favour at the most opportune moment, ala RotS.
And Lord Lucien,If you believe anakin can defeat obi wan, he should be able to defeat him at any location.
Reading comprehension. It's a more valuable perk than Bloody Mess.
Re: Re: Re: ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin
Anakin pretty easy.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Obi had better have a lava river and a slightly high embankment handy to goad Vader in to jumping over. The only reason he survived his duel with Vader were those two things. In a flat-planed, sterile environment, Vader would defeat Kenobi.
👆
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Go read the RotS novelization.
Which part of the novelization make it clear that Anakin would win if not for the Terrain? Can I see a quote of this please. Anakin and Kenobi for MOST of the fight were fighting on level ground and anakin WASN'T overwhelming or owning Kenobi. They were fighting on even terms. So that is CLEARLY not true. Further, Kenobi using Anakin's own weakness's against him isn't foul play or not to be factored. Anakin's boldness and arrogance WOULD ALWAYS leave such openings. All the woulda coulda shoulda.. doesn't change the fact that Kenobi DECISIVELY beat Anakin, and no amount of excuses will ever change that.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiIt seems like once a year or so, someone comes by and says what you're saying now. Two times in the past I have quoted whole passages from the novel that explicitly state (from Obi-Wan's personal perspective) that Anakin was kicking ass from the get-go. Obi had to rely on tricks just to stay alive. Not win, but to stay alive. It was that one moment at the end where Anakin tried jumping over him that lost him the duel.
Which part of the novelization make it clear that Anakin would win if not for the Terrain? Can I see a quote of this please. Anakin and Kenobi for MOST of the fight were fighting on level ground and anakin WASN'T overwhelming or owning Kenobi. They were fighting on even terms. So that is CLEARLY not true. Further, Kenobi using Anakin's own weakness's against him isn't foul play or not to be factored. Anakin's boldness and arrogance WOULD ALWAYS leave such openings. All the woulda coulda shoulda.. doesn't change the fact that Kenobi DECISIVELY beat Anakin, and no amount of excuses will ever change that.
Which is why I say the only way Obi would win again is if the same scenario was re-created. The book makes it clear (again, from Obi-Wan's perspective) that Anakin was pushing him back again and again, and getting stronger while Obi-Wan was getting more and more tired. This fits right in with Lucas' statement that Obi-Wan was more experienced, but Anakin more powerful. Experience let him surivive that long, but power was overwhelming him.
I am NOT re-quoting that chapter for a third time. The Russian site has it, look it up yourself.
According to the Star Wars canon, Obi-Wan is a specialist of Soresu, Anakin a specialist of Djem So. Having worked with Nick on the forms I believe I can say I know them inside out and Soresu's gameplan is essentially, to whether the storm, protect oneself while conserving energy, and wait for the opponent to run out of cardio/become caresless and make a mistake. Djem So on the other hand is a berserker style, all offence with high reliance on both speed and power but also technique to skillfully overpower your opponent's defences. Now the question is esentially, whether Anakin has the power to overpower Obi-Wan's defences. And well, he didn't in their fight, not even Grievous did, and we never saw anybody do it to OBi-Wan so I don;t think Anakin could.
To support Lucien's point, though Obi-Wan's chosen form is defensive by nature, the script strongly suggests that much of his giving ground was involuntary:
ROTS script
204 EXT. MUSTAFAR-MAIN CONTROL CENTER BALCONY-DAYANAKIN forces OBI-WAN down a narrow balcony outside the Control Room. He rips objects off the wall and throws them at OBI-WAN as he pushes him further and further along the walkway.
The balcony ends, and OBI-WAN is trapped. He looks over the balcony and into a river of lava.
[...]A small pipe connects the Control Center to the Main Collection Plant. OBI-WAN has no choice but to tightrope-walk out across the lava river while fighting ANAKIN.
Originally posted by iheartchaelI hope you're not a sock...
According to the Star Wars canon, Obi-Wan is a specialist of Soresu, Anakin a specialist of Djem So. Having worked with Nick on the forms I believe I can say I know them inside out and Soresu's gameplan is essentially, to whether the storm, protect oneself while conserving energy, and wait for the opponent to run out of cardio/become caresless and make a mistake. Djem So on the other hand is a berserker style, all offence with high reliance on both speed and power but also technique to skillfully overpower your opponent's defences. Now the question is esentially, whether Anakin has the power to overpower Obi-Wan's defences. And well, he didn't in their fight, not even Grievous did, and we never saw anybody do it to OBi-Wan so I don;t think Anakin could.
This is the no-limits fallacy. Because we're never shown the limits of Obi-Wan's defences, the assumption is that there is none--or specifically in this case, that Anakin couldn't reach it. He could. Obi-Wan's defences can be overwhelmed, it just takes either A.) more speed than he can handle (Grievous_ or B.) time to wear him out (Anakin). It took... 23 strikes per second on Grievous' behalf to overwhelm Obi-Wan in a duel that was only a couple of minutes long, if that. Anakin couldn't strike as fast, but their duel was much much longer. There was also the Force involved, something Grievous couldn't throw at Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by iheartchaelAnakin wasn't being exhausted, he was growing stronger. Obi-Wan was becoming tired.
Which is what Obi-Wan wanted. Exhaust Anakin's caridio and surviving long enough until Anakin gasses and makes a mistake like he did when he was too tired to make the jump to high ground.
Yes, we are shown no limits so we cannot say that Anakin can overpower them, there is no limits to what we speculate his defences to be so I don't see how it is a fallacy. If Grievous cannot overpower them then i don't see how anakin would when grievous is probably faster and stronger. Grievous cannot use the force but obi-wan has already showed that he can defend against Anakin's TD so it shouldn;t be an issue, and as styles are designed in with force powers in mind he would have had the guard up against grievous regardless.
My interpretation is that Obi-Wan weathered the storm until Anakin's cardio ran out and he was gassed in which case he made the fatral mistake. Obi-Wan was neve rind anger, and beats anakin, nine times out of ten.
Originally posted by iheartchaelReading comprehension... it's a better perk than Mysterious Stranger.
Yes, we are shown no limits so we cannot say that Anakin can overpower them, there is no limits to what we speculate his defences to be so I don't see how it is a fallacy. If Grievous cannot overpower them then i don't see how anakin would when grievous is probably faster and stronger. Grievous cannot use the force but obi-wan has already showed that he can defend against Anakin's TD so it shouldn;t be an issue, and as styles are designed in with force powers in mind he would have had the guard up against grievous regardless.My interpretation is that Obi-Wan weathered the storm until Anakin's cardio ran out and he was gassed in which case he made the fatral mistake. Obi-Wan was neve rind anger, and beats anakin, nine times out of ten.
Your (and my) interpretation is irrelevant. Sorry. Go read the the RotS novelization. It's more canon than you are. Here's the link to the site of Star Wars EU works. Again. Revenge of the Sith is on there, download it, read it.
Grievous did overpower them. 23 strikes per second in a 2-minute duel was all it took to overwhelm Obi-Wan's defences. Anakin was overpowering. ING. As in "in the process of". If the terrain hadn't begun to favour Obi-Wan, Anakin would have one. This is not interpretation. This is what is in the novel.
Vader wins 9/10.