Originally posted by dadudemon
Other than being butt raped in prison for decades and having his freedoms drastically reduced, no, no new problems. The shotgun solves them all.Of course, he could take his own life with that shotgun instead of the missionaries' and then all his problems would end...but if God doesn't exist, he just threw away his life. 😐
Don't Mormon hate for the sake to Mormon hate...it's not very intelligent.
that's pretty much what I was referring to. yep.
Originally posted by jimmy's One
This annoys me also , I live In New Zealand.. at least every couple of days because we have this church in our town .. Knock Knock..
and when I tell them not interested.. they start talking was if they have not heard you..I must get a big dog>>>>
Answering the door naked sometimes gets their attention. Sometimes they are just really persistant. They're trying to save souls here, people. And they will...come hell or high water. lol.
Actually...all of the Mormon people I know are pretty cool. It blows my mind. Of course...there are a couple that I want to punch in the face, but you have to take everyone with a grain of salt, right?
And bummer...I haven't had any missionaries knock on my door in years. That would be wicked sweet...I like to freak them out. It amuses me.
Multi-wives was allowed and in the Book of Mormon, that is until the government stepped in and said they'd revoke the LDS Church's religious institution tax status if they didn't quite that nonsense. Like magic, it suddenly went against Jesus-God to have more than one wife.
I believe there was a similar occurrence that happened with allowing blacks into the LSD Church. Once the government said "if you don't allow certain people in, then you're not a religion, but a private institution and you'll be taxed like one", walla, blacks were allowed and no longer the [evil] descendants of Cain according to the Book of Mormon.
You know what's also amazing, the head of the LSD Chruch is not only a prophet, but speaks directly to God, when he dies, the 2nd in command suddenly/divenly becomes the prophet and has the power to speak to God.
Originally posted by peejaydGeneral marriage
* can you please elaborate the Mormon teaching about marriage? is it true that it is okay for you to have multiple wives?
The LDS Church believes that a marriage sealed in the Temple is sealed for eternity, following the promise in the following verses:
Matt. 16: 19
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt. 18: 18
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Thus, if a marriage is sealed by those holding the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven that marriage is bound in Heaven as well. (This in no manner conflicts with Matt. 22:30 and Mark 12:25 as these verses reference marriage in Heaven and not a marriage on bound on Earth by those holding the binding keys.)
We believe that a marriage is necessary to be able to perform the highest duties that exist in Heaven, which include having children and raising them in the manner that God the Father has raised us.
One severe misconception people, even many of those in the LDS Church, have is that marriage is required for a woman to enter into the Celestial Kingdom. Such is not the case. If a woman is married, her husband will aid her in entering. If a woman is not married, another will aid her in entering. Such aid does not imply a marriage relationship as men also require aid in entering the Celestial Kingdom.
Polygamy
The LDS Church practiced polygamy from the mid 1830's until the Manifesto in 1890. Following the Manifesto of 1890 members of the Church outside the U.S., in countries where polygamy was legal, did not realize the cessation of polygamy applied to them and they continued the practice. When the leadership of the Church became aware of this in 1904 a second Manifesto was issued which explicitly stopped the practice Church wide.
Polygamy was only ever practiced by 13% of the Church at it's peak. This is a severe minority compared to the popular belief on the subject.
Polyandry
Polyandry may or not be a true teaching, I do not know. A few women appear to be sealed to more than one man following becoming widowed and remarrying. I do not know how this works, but the Bible states that in Heaven they will neither be married or given in marriage (Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25), yet the binding occurred here.
Originally posted by RobtardWe stopped polygamy because the persecution of the Church due to the practice. Having more than one wife does not go against our beliefs. We will not do so currently, and maybe never again, but we were not required to continue because it was something that was putting too much strain on the Church, organizationally and membership-wise.
Multi-wives was allowed and in the Book of Mormon, that is until the government stepped in and said they'd revoke the LDS Church's religious institution tax status if they didn't quite that nonsense. Like magic, it suddenly went against Jesus-God to have more than one wife.
The official, and accurate, reason for the cessation of the practice of polygamy:
OFFICIAL DECLARATION—1
To Whom It May Concern:
Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy—
I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.
One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.
There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.
Wilford Woodruff
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:
“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.
Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTOThe Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)
It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .
I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .
The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.
The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?
The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.
. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .
I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us. (Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)
Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it. (From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
Originally posted by Robtard I believe there was a similar occurrence that happened with allowing blacks into the LSD Church. Once the government said "if you don't allow certain people in, then you're not a religion, but a private institution and you'll be taxed like one", walla, blacks were allowed and no longer the [evil] descendants of Cain according to the Book of Mormon.
The Blacks had not received the priesthood because no one had ever asked if they could have it. Given the human rights movement, the leadership actually considered why they weren't allowed. Upon this consideration occurring they asked God about it and He stated that they could have it.
Originally posted by Robtard
You know what's also amazing, the head of the LSD Chruch is not only a prophet, but speaks directly to God, when he dies, the 2nd in command suddenly/divenly becomes the prophet and has the power to speak to God. [/B]
The actual statement concerning the Priesthood and the blacks:
OFFICIAL DECLARATION—2
To Whom It May Concern:
On September 30, 1978, at the 148th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church:
In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Spencer W. Kimball extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church. President Kimball has asked that I advise the conference that after he had received this revelation, which came to him after extended meditation and prayer in the sacred rooms of the holy temple, he presented it to his counselors, who accepted it and approved it. It was then presented to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who unanimously approved it, and was subsequently presented to all other General Authorities, who likewise approved it unanimously.
President Kimball has asked that I now read this letter:
June 8, 1978
To all general and local priesthood officers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world:
Dear Brethren:
As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.
Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.
He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color. Priesthood leaders are instructed to follow the policy of carefully interviewing all candidates for ordination to either the Aaronic or the Melchizedek Priesthood to insure that they meet the established standards for worthiness.
We declare with soberness that the Lord has now made known his will for the blessing of all his children throughout the earth who will hearken to the voice of his authorized servants, and prepare themselves to receive every blessing of the gospel.
Sincerely yours,Spencer W. Kimball
N. Eldon Tanner
Marion G. RomneyThe First Presidency
Recognizing Spencer W. Kimball as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it is proposed that we as a constituent assembly accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord. All in favor please signify by raising your right hand. Any opposed by the same sign.
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous in the affirmative.
Salt Lake City, Utah, September 30, 1978.
As a point of interest, this (the period surrounding the Manifesto) is where most polygamist sects have their origins. These groups turned away from the Church in an attempt to maintain the practice of polygamy, citing that such cessation proved that Wilford Woodruff was not a true Prophet.
The FLDS Church split from the LDS Church at this point, claiming that an 1886 revelation to John Taylor (3rd Prophet of the LDS Church), which may or may not exist, precluded the Manifesto given by Wilford Woodruff.
Originally posted by Robtard
Multi-wives was allowed and in the Book of Mormon, that is until the government stepped in and said they'd revoke the LDS Church's religious institution tax status if they didn't quite that nonsense. Like magic, it suddenly went against Jesus-God to have more than one wife.
This has been addressed already. Great job, Regret.
Originally posted by Robtard
I believe there was a similar occurrence that happened with allowing blacks into the LSD Church. Once the government said "if you don't allow certain people in, then you're not a religion, but a private institution and you'll be taxed like one", walla, blacks were allowed and no longer the [evil] descendants of Cain according to the Book of Mormon.
Sort of...but not really.
The "Cain" thing was unofficial doctrine taught by some members but officially, it was open to interpretation. Some members followed the "cain" thing and actually followed closely geneological records. In some instances, such as some of the people from Fiji, they were given the priesthood and later it was "taken away" from some after their lineage was explored.
Weird, I know. But in line with previous practices of giving the priesthood.
Also, do you call Joseph Smith baptizing African Americans into the Church racist? Something utterly appalling to Joseph Smith's theological contemporaries at the time. It was absurd to think African Americans were worthy of worshipping the Lord on equal terms in church with whites, much less be received into baptism.
Fact remains that Mormons were part of the pioneering efforts to overcome slavery, though not directly involved in the politics. One of the reasons "the mob" ran the Mormons out of Missouri is because they were NOT pro-slavery.
Here is a nice little decree that was done ELEVEN years prior to famous words by Ralph Waldo Emerson, by Joseph Smith:
"Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, and infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of the public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress. Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for an hour of virtuous liberty is worth a whole eternity of bondage."
buuut, you don't see any one bring up that point, do you?
Also, limiting the priesthood to just a few was NOT a new concept to Christians. Tribe of Levi, man...tribe of Levi. Later on when the New Testament came around, the "gentiles" were not allowed to have the priesthood either...even though other tribes were allowed to be ordained into the priesthood.
Even later in the New Testament, Gentiles were given the right to have the priesthood via revelation...(See Peter Chapter 10)
I for one have a problem with this whole "blacks couldn't have the priesthood". It makes me upset that my Church did something like this, but it doesn't change the any of the fundemental doctrines taught so I still have a testimony of its truthfulness.
Originally posted by Robtard
You know what's also amazing, the head of the LSD Chruch is not only a prophet, but speaks directly to God, when he dies, the 2nd in command suddenly/divenly becomes the prophet and has the power to speak to God.
This has been addressed already. It is NOT the second in command, actually, it is the longest living Apostle. Even then, they all meet and pray about it FIRST and it HAS to be unanimous.
Robtard, why do you continue to bring up both old and long rebutted talking points of anti-Mormons? DK has done the samething. (However, in you favor, you seem to bring up better and more legit points than DK.) If you could, read those two links that I sent you. It WILL take quite some time...but you can't continue to spew anti-Mormonism and NOT read the apologetics and even counterpoints on the Mormon side if you are to consider your point of veiw as objective.
Originally posted by Robtard
Not sure which translation you're reading, but the Hebrew translates to something like these:"For in this way God loved the world: that he gave the unique son, so that all the ones trusting in him would not perish, but have eternal life."
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
It doesn't say anything about "people go to heaven for just being good", in fact, a cornerstone of Christianity is that you must accept Jesus as your personal savior to enter heaven, since he died for your sins and all that jazz.
So yeah, you're wrong.
That's not what I was getting at, brew. I figured you would assume that but hoped that wouldn't. Since you already covered the scripture, I figured you be intelligent enough to realize the implications of my very drastically reduced statement. Either I give you too much credit, or you are playing dumb on purpose. (Previous discussions grant me that it would be illogical to conclude the later...but...can you blame me for being skeptical of your motives?)
1. I'm a Mormon. We don't believe that you have to "Accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" in this life...or even the next, and still not go to "heaven".
2. "Everlasting life" refers to exaltation, not immortality. "Eternal life",
"everlasting life", and "exaltation" all refer to receiving a "fullness of glory".
3. People will be given the change to "Accept the Gospel" in the next life and "work for the dead" will be performed on their behalf by those in the flesh. (Ergo, John 3:16 still holds true for those not given the gospel in this life but tried to be "good people".)
4. A genuinely good person, remembering his or her preexistence and the life they lead to their fullest, will be more than willing to accept the gospel as a spirit and will welcome it with open arms. Those still in the flesh, more than willing to perform those ordinances that are required (Example would be John 3:3.)
5. Because of point #4 and those before it, John 3:16 actually makes the case for my point.
6. You erroneously interpreted John 3:16 to include only the flesh when those "crazy theists" don't believe solely in a mortal body. Don't worry, even most Christians forget that we have a spirit that should be able to act and think for "ourself"...because it is "us".
7. Mormons don't believe that there is solely heaven and hell. We believe that there are three degrees of glory, based on our worthiness and how we treated our "second estate". Hell is only reserved for Satan, his angels, and those that received the gospel in its fullness and completely turned away from it-even denying the company of the Holy Ghost. Very very few people will do that latter...hell is reserved for very special people...NOT heathens, atheists, etc.
I condensed most to all of those points into one simple statement because you seem to "know" so much about Mormonism, I figured no explanation would be necessary. Seriously. 😬
My statement should make plenty of sense now:
Originally posted by dadudemon
A good person wouldn't go to hell...not by a long shot. 😉
Capisce?
Okay, now let's have your comments.
To your further altered and re-edited Mormon views it does, hell, I can go and edit the Bible and make it claim anything I like, anyone can, after the fact.
I was talking about mainstream Christianity, were excepting Jesus or not accepting Jesus as you own personal savior is the factor in heaven or hell.