Great Battles Vol 1: Darth Plagueis vs. Vitiate (Revan novel)
1. Who takes a combat purely of the Force, how thoroughly, and why?
2. Who would take victory in an all-out confrontation, how thoroughly, and why?
The contest takes place on neutral ground, with a 15 meter starting distance. Both sides have access to an adequate information on the other.
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This has been one of the more debated match-ups among the more elite combatants in the mythos, and really lends to the question of how quickly the Banite line surpassed the ancient sith. In order to facilitate a productive discussion, I'd invite everyone to give good arguments and reasons; I'm interested.
I will hold my cards a little until I see what people are saying, but I do side with Plagueis, and the general outline of my reasons is:
1. Vitiate's most impressive feats to this point were on an nexus. Many were also highly conditional; for instance, his domination of Revan and Malak is explicitly aided by their already being on the precipice of the dark side, his destruction of the dark council uses a mysterious flash that he conveniently never employs again - given his possession of home field advantage and prep time, it probably cannot be repeated in a sudden combat.
2. Vitiate is not the most effective combatant. He couldn't overwhelm Revan on a nexus without charging up his lightning, which he may not have time to do here, he was disarmed by Meetra's saber strike, he was almost blindsided by a droid's flamethrower, etc. Plagueis, meanwhile, is exceptionally well trained in personal combat and showed the ability to will himself out of incredibly sticky situations on a whim.
3. Darth Plagueis, along with Palpatine, were able to wrestle with the Force and unbalance it itself, to the point where it spawned the Chosen One just to fight them back. If you don't think this is particularly impressive, why didn't the Force ever need to spawn Anakin to combat Vitiate? Don't you think that if Vitiate could have done something similar, he would have? Yet he had a thousand years and a nexus.
4. Plagueis has incredible feats in close quarters combat and telekinetic prowess, which narrow Vitiate's options to quickly winning from a distance, therefore reducing his probability of victory.
5. The backcover blurb says Plagueis is the most powerful sith who had ever lived. It's not valid to just dismiss publisher's blurbs because you don't like them - where's the argument for it? They do have legal and creative license, and the quote just happens to align with Plagueis's own opinion, despite his earlier being willing to consider the opposite possibility. The publisher's blurb isn't infallible, but it does shift the burden to the other side to falsify it.
What are your cases?
Probably Vitiate.
This is based off his obliteration of entire Dark Councils ( who would have been amped the same as Vitiate from a DS nexus ), his ability to mind wipe an entire space station casually and lastly a quote which places him above Nihilus ( I wouldn't usually buy a quote that contradicts feats but since Vitiate and Nihilus are so close anyways and it's ambiguous if Vitiate can straight out drain a planet in the Revan novel I'm willing to make an exception ).
I believe you're the one who told me about it Ant. You linked me a video where Vitiate mindwipes an entire station and it has Lana and Marr corresponding about it.
I looked in the Valk RT but I couldn't find it.
If I'm wrong my apologies. His domination of Ziost though should be sufficient evidence of his telepathic abilities though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipgIE5GSE1Y&t=29m54s
Are you referring to this scene?
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Probably Vitiate.This is based off his obliteration of entire Dark Councils ( who would have been amped the same as Vitiate from a DS nexus ), his ability to mind wipe an entire space station casually and lastly a quote which places him above Nihilus ( I wouldn't usually buy a quote that contradicts feats but since Vitiate and Nihilus are so close anyways and it's ambiguous if Vitiate can straight out drain a planet in the Revan novel I'm willing to make an exception ).
His defeat of the dark council was done with the elements of prep and surprise in his home base. Were he able to replicate this on his own power, why does he never use that blue flash attack again?
Vitiate is above Nihilus, but how does that put him above Plagueis? Nihilus was never labeled the most powerful sith in history, nor did he wrestle with the Force itself via sheer meditation, nor did he intimidate Darth Sidious. His giga-drain is disproportionate to his other abilities, and indeed it doesn't look as if Vitiate has the same capability.
Perhaps the members of the Dark Council he managed to do this to were not strong enough to defend against his power. Or maybe he simply knew he could afford to expend that much power to make an example but it would be unwise to do so against opponents like Meetra and Scourge when there was someone who could both resist and attack him ( Revan ) whilst he was gathering his power to attack the other two.
Given Nihilus's feats. I really don't give a shit about quotes Ell. Like at all. They're only useful to me to provide clarity on matters of uncertainty. Everything else can be judged based off the visual evidence and feats we're provided.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Vitiate's most impressive feats to this point were on an nexus. Many were also highly conditional; for instance, his domination of Revan and Malak is explicitly aided by their already being on the precipice of the dark side, his destruction of the dark council uses a mysterious flash that he conveniently never employs again - given his possession of home field advantage and prep time, it probably cannot be repeated in a sudden combat.
Vitiate was the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy, period. Not a single source implies that a nexus environment was the source of his power.
The nexus environment of Dromund Kaas was the outcome of his dark practices. Vitiate was powerful enough to alter atmospheric conditions of planet Dromund Kaas, a shift that led to creation of nexus environment in this world.
Do not forget that Vitiate was just a child when he was dropping Sith Lords left and right in single combat.
As for his dismissal of an entire Dark Council, did you forget that this confrontation took place in an even playing field? Or do you think that the nexus environment favored only Vitiate?
Kindly do your homework before jumping to silly conclusions.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
2. Vitiate is not the most effective combatant. He couldn't overwhelm Revan on a nexus without charging up his lightning, which he may not have time to do here, he was disarmed by Meetra's saber strike, he was almost blindsided by a droid's flamethrower, etc. Plagueis, meanwhile, is exceptionally well trained in personal combat and showed the ability to will himself out of incredibly sticky situations on a whim.
May I remind you that the mighty Darth Plagueis almost lost to a bunch of assassins? On the contrary, Revan floored entire armies of Sith and Mandalorians in the battlefield.
I suppose Revan >> Darth Plagueis
Originally posted by The Ellimist
3. Darth Plagueis, along with Palpatine, were able to wrestle with the Force and unbalance it itself, to the point where it spawned the Chosen One just to fight them back. If you don't think this is particularly impressive, why didn't the Force ever need to spawn Anakin to combat Vitiate? Don't you think that if Vitiate could have done something similar, he would have? Yet he had a thousand years and a nexus.
Was it necessary for Vitiate to attempt such a thing?
Kindly check the Affecting the Force section of this blog: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/valkorion-respect-thread-1556713/
Your point is moot.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
4. Plagueis has incredible feats in close quarters combat and telekinetic prowess, which narrow Vitiate's options to quickly winning from a distance, therefore reducing his probability of victory.
Vitiate sent Revan flying across the hall and disintegrated T3-M4 with a thought. Later on, he gave Lord Scourge (Yoda vs Ventress) treatment, halting his lightsaber strike mid-air without a gesture.
Originally posted by The Ellimist 5. The backcover blurb says Plagueis is the most powerful sith who had ever lived. It's not valid to just dismiss publisher's blurbs because you don't like them - where's the argument for it? They do have legal and creative license, and the quote just happens to align with Plagueis's own opinion, despite his earlier being willing to consider the opposite possibility. The publisher's blurb isn't infallible, but it does shift the burden to the other side to falsify it.
Otherwise Darth Bane is the most powerful Force-user ever.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate was the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy, period. Not a single source implies that a nexus environment was the source of his power.
So? Still 99.9% of his feats are amped.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The nexus environment of Dromund Kaas was the outcome of his [B]dark practices. Vitiate was powerful enough to alter atmospheric conditions of planet Dromund Kaas, a shift that led to creation of nexus environment in this world. [/B]
Pretty cool. Vitiate with hundreds of years of rituals could affect DK's weather. Plagueis caused the coldest winter on Naboo just by being.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do not forget that Vitiate was just a child when he was dropping Sith Lords left and right in single combat.
Zannah did the same with Jedi as a child, who is canonically eclipsed by Plagueis.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As for his dismissal of an entire Dark Council, did you forget that this confrontation took place in an even playing field? Or do you think that the nexus environment favored only Vitiate?
Actually yes. Since Vitiate knew of the Dark Council's plan he could prepare any ritual or gather power with the assistance of the nexus.
Heck, child Zannah subconsciously snapped the necks of Jedi Masters. She was ten, rather than two (when Vitiate curbed his father), but Plagueis, who, by all means, should be far and away more powerful than Zannah, is still well within Vitiate's league here.
Can somebody present a definitive case for the Emperor? Because I'm thinking an argument for Hego Damask is entirely plausible here.