I have good news and bad news.
The bad news is that my period of KMC hibernation has come once again, since I'm kicking off a new concert tour, and as such, won't be around for the next several weeks. Actually, for Leon, that may be good news, haha.
The good news is that I get one more response to my favorite threads in months! And maybe that's bad news too, considering this is the only good thread on the board right now.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<If you're asking of Multi-Eternity can be destroyed, then the answer is yes. Multi-Eternity embodies the collection of universes that makes up the multiverse.>>i was referring to your multi-pf entity. my bad for not being clear.
You're asking if Multi-PF can be destroyed? I think it's actually theoretically possible. Roma was worried Wanda was going to do it. I don't know what impact that would have, because there's nothing in comics to say one way or the other whether there's a perpetual link between Phoenix Force energy and the White Hot Room. I know it would definitely mean the end of future life, since there's no energy available to create them anymore, but I don't know what affect that would have on things already created. Why do you ask?
<<I don't understand what you're trying to say. My egg theory is that the Phoenix of the White Hot Room (WHR) distributes universes into the infinite space allocated to the multiverse. Multi-Eternity, who can be destroyed, is the sentience of that multiverse, which in turn is the collection of universes placed there by the Phoenix of the WHR. If the multiverse is destroyed for whatever reason, Multi-Eternity dies with it.>>and so does the pf because there is no more potential for life.
You're confusing Illa's position with mine. In my view, the "draw on potential for life" thing only applies to the universal energy on which a Phoenix Manifestation can draw. the White Hot Room and the Multi-PF ("they"😉 is a different story entirely.
Illa would say that as long as the PF exist that there's ALWAYS potential for life, even in the absence of a multiverse. Potential for something happening and the conditions for it happening being right are entirely different concepts.
<<Because there's no such thing as the "multiverse" as a created entity. TOAA allocated infinite space for all universes to reside.>>??
why assume this? it's as logical to say the multiverse simply expands into the void. why does there need to be a allocated a set amount of space?
Don't pay too much attention to the word "allocation". I just couldn't think of a better way to say that TOAA declared the intention for infinite universes to exist in parallel. Into the void, if it pleases you.
<<family is a collection of related people, who were each born. But there's no formal "genesis" of a family.>>but each family will have derived from one source -- think of that first mating (adam and eve for sake of discussion) as the multiverse's start. without it, there would be no family. that also doesn't imply that the multiverse was fashioned linearly. just that it had a starting point.
Yes, but a family begins when there are two people who have a relation, by blood or by bond. Families don't come out of a womb - it just relies on people coming out of the womb. Likewise, the multiverse doesn't form from a Big Bang, it just relies on at least two universes coming into existence (each via a Big Bang).
<<You're seeing the multiverse as this "entity" that it's not. The multiverse was born the moment there were two universes.>>it was born the instant there was a chance that the quantum foam tucked deep within plank time could have behaved differently -- ie -- it came into being when there was choice. but at one point, there would have BEEN no choice. it simply WAS. from that first spark, causality arose. by saying it came into existence at the moment there were 2 universes implies the same thing i'm saying in a different way.
you see, i knew we'd agree on something! 😄
We're not saying the same thing, haha. You're saying that the multiverse exists even if there are no universes simply because of the existence of choice. That ignores the definition of a multiverse...multiple universes. no plank quantum foam choice spark causality stuff necessary.
Unless you're saying that "choice" is the result of two universes that go in different directions, which in turn makes up the multiverse, which I can understand, but that doesn't help your original contention...it still means that the universe predates than the multiverse...unless you're not nitpicky and just call it a multiverse of one, but I think you get my point.
<<I've given TONS of quotes and examples with Watchers, Galactus, Reed, even Phoenix herself all saying the same thing - Phoenix IS the universe, it's the energy of creation, and by using that energy of creation for other purposes, future life is DENIED. How can you possibly claim with a straight face that it's circumstantial?>>you've given one.
ONE QUOTE??? I'VE GIVEN ONE QUOTE?????
i've agreed that it is the force of creation in the big bangs. in fact i've really no issue with anything in your theory other than the eggs (which i see no need for and which don't seem entirely consistent in your theory) and the fact that the pf was born outside of the multiverse because there were no states outside the multiverse.
Saying that PF was born outside the multiverse isn't my theory....it was stated. PF originates in the White Hot Room - it was stated. The White Hot Room is outside the multiverse - it was stated. The only thing that wasn't specifically stated is whether or not it predated the multiverse. There's stronger evidence supporting my contention that it is than that there isn't. Are you really going to make me rehash those reasons....AGAIN? I think you're just being difficult. 😄
How doesn't the egg thing fit? The "egg" (it was an analogy, not literally an egg, btw) is simply an uninitialized universe generated by the pf. It's uninitialized until Eternity asks "why?", which starts the Big Bang (manifestation of the Phoenix). The Big Bang initializes the universe, kicking off the abstracts and all the rest of that good stuff. It's pretty consistent, unless there's either something I'm missing, or you're misunderstanding.
as for whether the pf is everything? it does say that in one line, but i already addressed that point.
ONE LINE?!?!?!
ok, even if it WERE that one line (and it's more than that), that's pretty much your canon right there. I mean, it's not like there are tons of comics discussion the role of the Phoenix Force in the creation cycle, even one quote saying it is as much as you need!
Debate off the table for a second, just because this is my last post, intuitively speaking, all things considered, all quotes and evidence and arguments taken into account - what do YOU see the Phoenix Force being? Do you accept that it's MORE LIKELY than other explanation that it is indeed the energy of all the universe?
but by accepting the fact that the pf is everything . . . i don't know. can't prove it doesn't, but can't buy that it does. how could you argue that pf could ever lose if you believe all it needs to do is withdraw itself from an entity to 'kill it'? when phoenix battles, or the force is threatened, why not withdraw its power from the offending force and end its existence?
And I think this is what it all comes down to for you - the whole reason why you're arguing so heavily against an advanced role for the Phoenix. By acknowledging what Phoenix Force is, you think that you're accepting and validating all of GS's views and that Jean Grey somehow becomes invincible. But remember....I'm Demigawd. Nobody argued more heavily and completely against GS than anybody else, so by accepting the role of the Phoenix Force, you're NOT saying GS is right, or that Jean Grey is invincible. Jean Grey will still be the herald-level super-psi she's always been, because as the Handbook itself states, by taking a human host, the Phoenix's power is limited, as well as its judgment and wisdom. Jean Grey, on her best day, will be at slightly above Galactus level. And that won't change no matter how great and mighty the Phoenix Force itself is in the grand scheme of things. So don't worry!
to believe it IS everything implies too much. i admit to having no evidence to support my denial, but deny it i do! 😄
But that's the thing - just because the Phoenix Force is everything doesn't imply too much. It's a sentient energy source...nothing more or less. GS's problem was that he bonded Jean, Phoenix, TOAA into one being, but the evidence spoke against him. I'm saying that they're different entities...and the evidence supports me. Further, it keeps Jean Grey very much human, which should please you!
Well, enjoy the rest of your time here! I'll be back in a few weeks, I'm sure, and hopefully there will be more interesting threads when I am!
Later guys....
<<Actually, for Leon, that may be good news, haha.>>
heheh. actually, i was just about to call checkmate . . .
those still reading, notice how he so conveniently backs out JUST as the biggest question i can come up with to his theories is surrepitiously slipped in . . . 😖hifty:
HA!
because my foil (aka demigawd) has vanished, i will table all extraneous discussion and boil it down to this:
basically, (and i hope i got this right demi!) demi says that a multiversal phoenix force is the embodiment of creation and potential life, and that individual pieces of this force dwell in each universe. (he actually says a LOT more than this, but you can all read for yourselves!!) in any event, i mostly agree with this. but he says that if the pf is destroyed, all life will . . . be extinguished and no further life will be able to exist. i disagree with this. (illadelph says something similar and i trust HE is still taking part in this nonsense!😄 ) my question then, which went unanswered by demi, regards the goblin force which once DESTROYED a portion of the pf. after the pf was destroyed life in that universe did not 'end', nor was there any indication that life would not go on.
anyone care to explain that? ill?
here's a partial synopsis to mutant x#12:
<<Synopsis: The Goblin Queen is a separate, cosmos-
endangering entity, which Maddie had
merged with to save Scotty from the Inferno.
Uatu watched as it killed the Phoenix force
and Galactus and was defeated by the Celes-
tials.>>
guess that also establishes the celestials as above galactus in power, if not importance . . .
damn, i wish demigawd were still here . . .
oh, and best of luck on the concert, bud!! 😄
haha...well, today is my last day, not specifically that moment, haha. So you will have to table the "I had him on the ropes" trash talking until I really AM gone and unable to respond. 😄
Just to clarify something - if the Multi-PF were destroyed, I said I didn't know what would happen to existing life because nothing talks about whether the connection is static or dynamic - that is to say, I don't know if the destruction of the MultiPhoenix Force would WITHDRAW its energy from things that already exist, or if everything that already exists just keeps the energy that's there.
And to answer your question - the Goblin Force is basically a corrupted avatar that tapped into the Phoenix Manifestation. When the Force was destroyed in Mutant X, it destroyed its physical representation in that universe. It ruined the Manifestation's ability to continue to interact with the physical world. You didn't have to go all the way to Mutant X for that - it happened right here in the 616. "jgg" - the Phoenix Force in 616 is currently shattered. But that doesn't mean that the function of the Force is compromised...it's not.
Remember - PF = energy. There's a sentience to it, yes, but in the end...it's just the energy of creation. You can't simply destroy it by beating up or killing Jean Grey, or Madelyne, or the Goblin Force, the same way you can't kill the Power Cosmic by destroying Galactus.
the climate of the discussion seems to have changed yet again, but this was in response to demi's eariler request about a little about Atlez. maybe you cant see the words[dependin on if youre computer dosent automatically resize the image], but here we see warlack cross the cosmic abyss or the infinty abyss, and those black orbs that are spiraling toward oblivion--the abstract oblivion's realm, are the different entrances to an "Atlez" realm. this is where they use thier energies to anchor all "a" reality.
here he is explainin, hopefully the words can be seen. the avengers incident he refers to is when they battled the time keepers, who tried to re make reality in thier own image, and tricked immortus into working for him who they later betrayed. as a result kang and immortus got unstitched from time, meaning that kang was no longer gonna grow up to be immortus
Originally posted by demigawd
haha...well, today is my last day, not specifically that moment, haha. So you will have to table the "I had him on the ropes" trash talking until I really AM gone and unable to respond. 😄Just to clarify something - if the Multi-PF were destroyed, I said I didn't know what would happen to existing life because nothing talks about whether the connection is static or dynamic - that is to say, I don't know if the destruction of the MultiPhoenix Force would WITHDRAW its energy from things that already exist, or if everything that already exists just keeps the energy that's there.
And to answer your question - the Goblin Force is basically a corrupted avatar that tapped into the Phoenix Manifestation. When the Force was destroyed in Mutant X, it destroyed its physical representation in that universe. It ruined the Manifestation's ability to continue to interact with the physical world. You didn't have to go all the way to Mutant X for that - it happened right here in the 616. "jgg" - the Phoenix Force in 616 is currently shattered. But that doesn't mean that the function of the Force is compromised...it's not.
Remember - PF = energy. There's a sentience to it, yes, but in the end...it's just the energy of creation. You can't simply destroy it by beating up or killing Jean Grey, or Madelyne, or the Goblin Force, the same way you can't kill the Power Cosmic by destroying Galactus.
heheh. i figured that the rumors of your departure were exaggerated . . .
anyway, the difference between jgg and mutant x is pronounced and important -- the watcher clearly says the phoenix FORCE was destroyed, and it was a battle the watcher witnessed near the start of the universe. the goblin force then went on to destroy galactus before being stopped by the celestials. in the jgg incident it was clearly stated that the force was shattered, not 'destroyed'. i guess you could argue that it really wasn't completely destroyed, but that goes against what is stated. wish i had a scan. i'm going by the wording of 3 independent synopses of mutant x #12. at the least, it is inconsistent with some of your precious quotes. 😄
and that incident wasn't meant to reflect on the notion of your multi-pf, just the universal ones that are said to encompass creation/life/everything in each universe. course if one aspect is destroyed, the multi is no longer infinite. the only other case i could find that states the death of the pf was in that what if issue where its death/destruction was caused by itself as it destroyed the universe.
let the trash talking begin! 😱
ps-what's the deal with the concert tour? what's the band's name? you a pro?
Originally posted by manjaro
when he said his "all" was too low he is saying that, the soul gem with its kooky version of cosmic awareness told him somthing was wrong, and his reality was about to be destroyed. any way her is atlez prefacing his role
So your scans show that Atlez's role is limited to a single reality. That diminishes his role significantly.
Originally posted by leonidas
heheh. i figured that the rumors of your departure were exaggerated . . .anyway, the difference between jgg and mutant x is pronounced and important -- the watcher clearly says the phoenix FORCE was destroyed, and it was a battle the watcher witnessed near the start of the universe. the goblin force then went on to destroy galactus before being stopped by the celestials. in the jgg incident it was clearly stated that the force was shattered, not 'destroyed'. i guess you could argue that it really wasn't completely destroyed, but that goes against what is stated. wish i had a scan. i'm going by the wording of 3 independent synopses of mutant x #12. at the least, it is inconsistent with some of your precious quotes. 😄
and that incident wasn't meant to reflect on the notion of your multi-pf, just the universal ones that are said to encompass creation/life/everything in each universe. course if one aspect is destroyed, the multi is no longer infinite. the only other case i could find that states the death of the pf was in that what if issue where its death/destruction was caused by itself as it destroyed the universe.
let the trash talking begin! 😱
ps-what's the deal with the concert tour? what's the band's name? you a pro?
Not exaggerated. Premature. 😄 But it's all over tomorrow, so I may as well enjoy. I do music production....stuff, and part of the obligation includes sometimes going with performers to the touring circuit. It's something that only really happens with urban music, but that's my field, so that's what I have to do. It's fun, though.
If you're getting it from synopsis, then you're relying on someone else's interpretation! And like I said, "destroying" the Phoenix just destroys its ability to manifest on the physical plane. We're all made of the Phoenix Force. But when it manifests in the physical plane, sufficient power can still destroy it. But that doesn't mean the WHR PF is affected by it, or even the PF energy itself. Just the PF's ability to manifest in that plane...essentially it's consciousness is destroyed.
Also, I don't have a problem with the PF being destroyed in a universe. Universes die. WHR PF doesn't care, as long as the creation cycle is maintained, a universe being destroyed doesn't mean anything.
<<Not exaggerated. Premature. But it's all over tomorrow, so I may as well enjoy. I do music production....stuff, and part of the obligation includes sometimes going with performers to the touring circuit. It's something that only really happens with urban music, but that's my field, so that's what I have to do. It's fun, though.
If you're getting it from synopsis, then you're relying on someone else's interpretation! And like I said, "destroying" the Phoenix just destroys its ability to manifest on the physical plane. We're all made of the Phoenix Force. But when it manifests in the physical plane, sufficient power can still destroy it. But that doesn't mean the WHR PF is affected by it, or even the PF energy itself. Just the PF's ability to manifest in that plane...essentially it's consciousness is destroyed.
Also, I don't have a problem with the PF being destroyed in a universe. Universes die. WHR PF doesn't care, as long as the creation cycle is maintained, a universe being destroyed doesn't mean anything.>>
sounds like you got a cool gig working.
anyway, you're right about the synopses not being wholly reliable. but i've read the same in the forum a number of times. still, i'm looking for a scan or the book.
and thing is, if the force WAS destroyed, not the sentience, but the force itself, by your definition (and ill's), the universe and all life should have ended. obviously it didn't. i suppose the point is somewhat moot until someone can provide a scan showing perhaps more clearly what exactly happened. guess we'll save this for another time.
i'll be bored while you're gone.
😄
late
Originally posted by demigawd
So your scans show that Atlez's role is limited to a single reality. That diminishes his role significantly.
even tho you wont be here to respond, i may as well post to your ghost😄 given the infinte scope of the universe i think that holding an entire reality together is hardly a small feat, plus he has made it known that he's not a fighter ne-way
HERE WE GO!!!! 😱
The Phoenix Force is the power of creation. It is a well-spring of energy created by TOAA from which all life is and will be derived from. The Phoenix Force is also a level of consciousness which certain beings can attain (the avatars via mutation) which places them in union with the Crown and therefore Marvels Supreme Being.
The first Phoenix interpretation had Jean literally as Phoenix. It was just Jean having reached the stage of ultimate mutation(as was also claimed later in New X-men):
Years after the DP Saga the writers of X-Factor wanted her for the team but as a mass murderer that just wasn’t possible so the editorially imposed 86 retcon came into being which made Jeans energy signature a separate being unto itself. A being who apparently possessed people on a whim, a being with a different nature and origin to the original interpretation. Phoenix was described as the nexus point for the psyches of all living beings and was said to derive from these living minds. This interpretation is the one which has been in place the longest and is the ones most fans know of and acknowledge. It is therefore the interpretation Marvel most closely adheres to.
The mistake a lot of people make when reading the line “Phoenix derives from the minds of sentient beings” is that they interpret this as meaning the Phoenix power is generated by the minds of sentient beings and is therefore dependent on life existing whereas the opposite is true:
As you can see even during the 86 retcon era such a line of thought is incorrect. The Phoenix Force isn’t merely the sum of all psychic energy generated by the minds of sentient beings. It is the power from which all life springs. It predated life, its power sustains life. You got that Leo?!!! Lol
To further support the idea that without Phoenix there would be no life:
Destroying a host or absorbing the Phoenix power will have no effect on life as the Phoenix power would still permeate that universe. However Galactus was attempting to put a stop to the Phoenix manifestation entering our plane of existence by separating Phoenix from its main host Rachel thereby banishing it to its point of origin (By current continuity the Crown). This would presumably sever all ties between the Phoenix consciousness and said reality resulting in the end of life and the absence of even the potential for life.
Well that was my attempt at an explanation anyway. Either way it’s made quite clear that life and potential for life is dependent on Phoenix .
As some people have said already Phoenix needs to be split up into two categories at least. You have the Phoenix consciousness of the Crown and you have the Phoenix manifestation in reality. The Phoenix consciousness is the power behind creation and has the role of maintaining the creation cycle of the multiverse and bringing universe after universe to the Omega point(In Marvel the M’kraan crystal/Crown) when they have come to the end of their cycles. The Phoenix consciousness cannot manifest into reality directly but must do so via the minds of sentient beings, hence the often misinterpreted line. The minds of sentient beings are merely gateways for the Phoenix consciousness to manifest into the universes of the multiverse. This idea is supported by Classic X-men 8. Jeans meeting with the golden woman who as per the 86 retcon would take on her persona and save the multiverse as Phoenix:
“-My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.
-Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"
-You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality.You are human.I am of creation.”
Through the minds of sentient beings the Phoenix Consciousness manifests to carry out its work at a universal level. It did it here on the space shuttle and it manifested at the dawn of 616 when Eternity came into sentience and questioned existence. Back then it manifested as the Big Bang.
The above scan also supports the idea of a central power reserve which manifests into reality as Phoenixes which carry out acts of micro-surgery from within reality. All of this in an effort to maintain the creation cycle.
In 2001 X-men Forever came out and stated that natural beginning and end of a universe is via Phoenix.
Here are some comments from Markolin:
X-Men Forever 3 : All Of God's Creatures ...Prosh has sent Jean back in time;she revives the scene of classic X-men 43 between Death and Phoenix. Death tells Jean the Phoenix Force chose her but Jean chose the Phoenix, too,to save her friends but also out of hunger for infinite power. Death shows her the Universal Forces and says that they were scared of her more than anything else,because she represents the unlimited potential of humanity and threatened the very fabric of reality.
Comment
-Here Phoenix seems to be both a cosmic force and the unlimited potential of Jean.X-Men Forever 6: Tomorrow begins Today
The Stranger planned to speed up human evolution via Phoenix in order to collapse the Universe and emerge as the supreme being of the next reality.Eternity freezes time in order to talk to Jean.He tells her that the Universe continually moves between life and death,order and chaos.The Phoenix is the resurrection force,the assurance of life after death.The Celestials have put in every race the potential to become greater than the abstract entities and bring the Universe to its end.The Universe will plunge into Oblivion,but in time Creation will renew itself:it is a cyclical process,the natural order of things.In time humanity will evolve into Eternity,and some may survive into the new Universe as the new Galactus.
Comments
- The Abstract are reflections of the Universe.They can be substituted,and their slot occupied by others. Humanity has been said to have the potential to replace them,and in any case they wont last more than this version of the Universe.The Phoenix on the other hand is not an abstract,it is a force.The very force of creation that keeps the process going on forever.
