Raven vs Dark Phoenix

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. As i highlighted the handbooks corroborated my interpretation of the scene.

Your interpretation not only didnt reconcile the account given by the hendbooks but also statements and events within New X-men itself.

But as always you pressed on and kept talking out of pride. Thats our ODG 😆

We're debating comics, son. Not handbooks. You may not want to... but:

Originally posted by ODG
Other handbooks contradict your interpretation. This has been pointed out before. But you'll pretend they don't. It's amusing because if handbooks are your best evidence over on-panel comic evidence, that just speaks to the inherently laughable value of your position.

We're debating comics, son. Not handbooks. You may not want to... but:

Not a single handbook contradicts my interpretation. One entry confirms what Jean had in her hand was the universe and she healed it by letting go of her human connections and willing Scott to continue life and the X-men without her, another entry focuses on Jeans statement regarding how she had to amputate the Here Comes Tomorrow future and states that Jean severed the Here Comes Tomorrow future from the rest of the multiverse.

All in line with what i've said happened. ✅

Your interpretation is unsupported by either character statement, artistic depiction or handbook. 🙂

But continue to lose sorely. Its what youre great at. Hence why 12 years later youre still mad 😱 😆

Originally posted by ODG
Stop ignoring what I posted. I clearly posted and corrected you twiceover.

The handbook entry didn't just state that she disinfected the future reality. It stated in no uncertain terms: [b]that extracting Sublime from Beast disinfected the future reality. And the Phoneix conversation on-panel (most important), literally equates the disinfection with the amputation:

Jean literally talks about Sublime and makes her statement, "Some kind of intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue... I... had to amputate the whole future." And in direct response... the Phoenix consciousness literally states, "Phoen/////ix disinf///ection suc///cessf///ul."

So seriously, stop trying to ignore one of the most pointed and clearly damning indictments on your interpretation. Extracting Sublime = disinfection/amputation of "future." Disinfection = amputation with Grant Morrison's imaginative flowery prose. Sublime = future, which you ALREADY ADMITTED in the very next statement. Which is why you don't read one small phrase in isolation literally. Because you can't just pick and choose when to take a flowery statement literally and when not to, when they share the same exact term.

Stop being such a blatant hypocrite. That's the third time I've had to correct you on such a clearly unequivocal point. Not a small one, mind you, since it completely destroys your assertion that he handbooks square with your interpretation (they don't) and that they don't literally support my interpretation of what's stated on-panel (it does). [/B]

Originally posted by ODG

As always.....wrong! 😱

In that at least you have consistency. 😆

The Alternate Universes handbook stated that extracting Sublime was what disinfected reality.

However neither the Handbook, nor the comic equated the disinfection of reality, to the amputation Jean referred to. That is yet another in a long line of misinterpretations on your part, one that contradicts the definitions of the terms in question. ✅

Disinfection and amputation by definition are two entirely separate medical procedures and as such the terms are not synonymous in any way, shape or form.

"Disinfection describes a process that eliminates many or all pathogenic microorganisms, except bacterial spores, on inanimate objects."

https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontro...iz
ation.

"Disinfection is a process that reduces the number of microorganisms to a level at which they do not present a risk to patients or clients."

https://www.niinfectioncontrolmanua...ng-disinfection

To paraphrase, to disinfect is to remove or reduce microorganisms to the point where they are no longer a threat to a patient. So that is in line with what was depicted.

Now lets look at the term amputation:

"Amputation is the loss or removal of a body part such as a finger, toe, hand, foot, arm or leg. "

and now lets look at the circumstances under which amputation might be necessary:

"If tissue destruction, infection or disease affects a body part in a way that makes it impossible to repair or endangers the person’s life, that part may be removed by surgical amputation."

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...r /> mputation.

Amputation may be required if despite other treatments to deal with the affliction, the patient has been dealt too much damage to recover from:

"Serious infection that does not get better with antibiotics or other treatment"

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides...tion-amputation

So an amputation is sometimes medically necessary even following a disinfection, if the damage caused by the infection will not heal despite the offending microorganisms being removed/brought under control thereby endangering the patients life. Hmmm 😖hifty:

Sublime was a sentient bacterial colony deadset on stalling evolution so it could remain the dominant life form on the planet:

https://imgur.com/HH3aehO

Perpetuating evolution is the Phoenixes MO.

The only reason the Phoenix manifested within Jean, was to address the threat of Sublime. The Phoenix Force told this to the Professor earlier within the story arc:

https://imgur.com/rmWM4aQ

Anything else was besides the point.

So when Jean extracted Sublime from reality, she disinfected it:

https://imgur.com/gmYWUFf

As confirmed by the handbook:

https://imgur.com/cksLbQQ

However as Jean stated in the scene the colony had gone rogue meaning she had to go beyond just the planned disinfection (the extraction of Sublime) and had to amputate the whole future off of reality.

That extra step was besides the point, as far as the Phoenix was concerned she had performed her designated task of disinfecting reality by removing Sublime. Hence its reply of "Phoenix disinfection successful."

This point was verified officially where the Handbooks clarified Jeans comments stating that the future she amputated was the actual reality 151104:

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

Thus entirely rubbishing your nonsensical and unsupported interpretation.

And this is your problem. Youre just not as smart as you think you are and subsequently get eaten up despite your best efforts. Thats why 11 yrs later youre out here acting like a woman scorned and giving pettiness and passive aggression with each post. Slow your roll Petty Patty. Its not that deep 😉

The correctly working links in order:

https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/disinfection/

https://www.niinfectioncontrolmanual.net/cleaning-disinfection

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/amputation

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/definition-amputation

🙂

^ Ok, so you're going to ignore the explicit handbook that contradicts your other handbook.

I mean, handbooks are prohibited from these forum debates but whatever. You, somehow, are the arbiter of how handbook entries should be interpreted and whichever way they are distorted in your favor, they shall stand over on-panel evidence.

On-panel evidence > Handbooks > conflicting Handbooks.

I mean, you could always just cite what Dark Phoenix's greatest on-panel feat was and debate it. For some fatuous reason, you cannot do so. C'est la vie.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Ok, so you're going to ignore the explicit handbook that contradicts your other handbook.

I mean, handbooks are prohibited from these forum debates but whatever. You, somehow, are the arbiter of how handbook entries should be interpreted and whichever way they are distorted in your favor, they shall stand over on-panel evidence.

On-panel evidence > Handbooks > conflicting Handbooks.

I mean, you could always just cite what Dark Phoenix's greatest on-panel feat was and debate it. For some fatuous reason, you cannot do so. C'est la vie.

ODG just stop. 😆 Stop ✅

Handbooks are completely admissible as a source of evidence here as long as they dont contradict whats explicitly depicted on panel. Handbooks are especially useful in helping us readers know the company line on ambiguous scenes, which is the case here.

As i've laid out comprehensively, your interpretation is neither supported by the comic book scene or by the handbooks.

Whilst mine is supported by both. That should tell you something.

The Here Comes Tomorrow reality profile from the Alternate Universes Handbook states that Jean Grey disinfected reality by extracting Sublime from Beasts body:

https://imgur.com/cksLbQQ

Which is exactly what I said as thats exactly what we saw in the comic:

https://imgur.com/gmYWUFf

The M'kraan crystal profile focuses on another instance within that scene and states that Jean severed the actual future reality 15104 off of the multiverse:

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

and thats exactly what Jean states she did in the comic and as she says that we see said future fade away from the background:

https://imgur.com/OKI2ENX

So neither handbook contradicts what's stated or depicted on panel or each other. They just focus on different things as ones a profile covering all the key narrative elements of the Here Comes Tomorrow reality, whilst the other is the profile of the multiversal M'kraan crystal so the fact that a reality is severed from the multiverse would be more relevant to said profile than the in depth coverage of what happened in one of the many realities its associated with.

What they do contradict however is just YOUR interpretation of what happened on panel. Yet despite the fact that the scene is ambiguous and can be interpreted in a different way to what you have, a way that reconciles both comic and handbook accounts, you arrogantly insist that you're right whilst disingenuously trying to dismiss an official source as evidence when it complements the comic book account and gives us readers guidance on how to interpret the comic. Shame on you ✅

In the above scene Jean states that because of the severity of the bacterial infection she had to resort to amputation.

The Phoenix replies with "Phoenix disinfection successful." Which it was as Jean has extracted Sublime from reality which was her designated task as was firmly established in the New X-men series:

https://imgur.com/rmWM4aQ

Based solely on that happenstance, (Phoenix confirming the mission was a success) you have conflated the terms disinfection and amputate despite the fact that they mean two entirely different things not only within the English language but also within medical science. Your interpretation literally does not make sense given what's actually stated. 😬

As i touched on in my last post, disinfection is related to removing or reducing infection levels on a body.

Amputation is related to removing a body part to save a patients life and can be done where other treatments such as disinfection alone are insufficient to save a patients life.

Jean disinfects reality by removing the bacteria and then seeing how bad the damage was following the infection decides to amputate that future off the multiverse.

Where you got further confused is where when holding Sublime Jean asks the Phoenix Consciousness "is this the future?" i.e is Sublime the inevitable fate of reality:

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

The Phoenix Force basically says no, "This is now." i.e this is just how things currently stand.

This leads Jean to get upset and say her friends dont deserve to face that. The Phoenix then comforts Jean saying its not the end yet and directs her to the White Hot Room saying she can grow a better future there.

We later see Jean go to the White Hot Room, materialize 616 and then alter the event that resulted in Here Comes Tomorrow, thus providing her friends with a better future.

https://imgur.com/pfqD6pU

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

https://imgur.com/xZ21SUX

You are 100% wrong. Your interpretation completely contradicts the definition of the words used in the scene, but also doesnt make sense from a narrative perspective.

If Jean didnt amputate the actual future and was referring to Sublime when she said she had to amputate the future, why would Jean subsequently ask the Phoenix if Sublime was the future after just stating she amputated the future? 😕 She got dementia? LMAO

Any sensible person could see she was referring to two separate things. 1) the actual future reality and 2) destiny i.e the fate for reality otherwise it makes absolutely zero sense.

If in both instances ("i had to amputate the future" and "is this the future"😉 she was talking about Sublime then when the Phoenix Force urged her to go and grow a new future, then by your interpretation we wouldve seen Jean go to the M'kraan crystal put on her lab coat and grow a different strain of bacterial colony! 😆

Did we see that? 😱

No. Following Jean being directed to grow a new future, the new future we saw her grow was the actual timeline, thus CONCLUSIVELY rubbishing your interpretation on panel. The handbooks verifying my account aren't even needed, theyre just extra salt in the wound.

Your interpretation is nonsensical, contradictory and disingenuous.

This is all about pride and fragile ego.

Its ok to admit when GS is right 😮‍💨

I suppose we must also consider that White Hot room/Mkraan feats aren’t really admissible, as leaving for the white hot room would be considered ‘leaving the field’ and a forfeit/loss by forum rules. So Jean is largely going to be held to her combat/personal feats. Unless I suppose it’s just being added for purpose of discussion.

Originally posted by Juntai
I suppose we must also consider that White Hot room/Mkraan feats aren’t really admissible, as leaving for the white hot room would be considered ‘leaving the field’ and a forfeit/loss by forum rules. So Jean is largely going to be held to her combat/personal feats. Unless I suppose it’s just being added for purpose of discussion.

Oooo youre a sneaky one Juntai. You racked your brains for this one, but ultimately, it doesnt hold up to scrutiny. 😉

She wasnt in the M'kraan crystal when she amputated the future reality. She performed the amputation and then travelled to the crystal as shown in the scans i shared above.

The handbooks reference the abilities displayed such as total control of a universes atomic structure and the ability to cut and regrow timelines as part of the Phoenix power set. You'd have to show some canonical evidence stating her powers were dependent on being in the M'kraan crystal. None exists. The feats stand 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oooo youre a sneaky one Juntai. You racked your brains for this one, but ultimately, it doesnt hold up to scrutiny. 😉

She wasnt in the M'kraan crystal when she amputated the future reality. She performed the amputation and then travelled to the crystal as shown in the scans i shared above.

The handbooks reference the abilities displayed such as total control of a universes atomic structure and the ability to cut and regrow timelines as part of the Phoenix power set. You'd have to show some canonical evidence stating her powers were dependent on being in the M'kraan crystal. None exists. The feats stand 🙂

She did that by extracting Sublime's essense from Beast's body as the handbook states and also TP Cyclops (from the past) to cause him to alter his decision which changes the entire time line. That's her feat. Extraction and TP a being from the past.

Lastly, the handbook is no authority over on panel evidence. Handbooks contradict on panel evidence many times. Therefore, You have to prove she had total control of every atom by using on panel evidence (while being in the normal universe).
Then you have to prove that DP had this ability as well without having to go through all the steps Jean did (White Hot room, enlightenment, etc). Because DP never showed that ability in every showing. Not even 1/billionth of that magnitude.

Originally posted by Juntai

People aren't popping in and out of the thread because they're defeated in any way at all, but because the whole thing is pretty stupid really.

Hot air and delusion does not a conversation make.

Originally posted by h1a8
She did that by extracting Sublime's essense from Beast's body as the handbook states and also TP Cyclops (from the past) to cause him to alter his decision which changes the entire time line. That's her feat. Extraction and TP a being from the past.

If youre not going to bother to keep up with the debate and read posts properly then you will not get a proper response.

Go have a look at what me and ODG were actually debating about and what feats i have shown conclusively occurred through on panel and supplementary handbook references and then come back to me.

Until then do not waste my time. 👆

Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly, the handbook is no authority over on panel evidence. Handbooks contradict on panel evidence many times. Therefore, You have to prove she had total control of every atom by using on panel evidence (while being in the normal universe).

Handbooks dont have priority over on panel evidence as ive stated multiple times in discussion with ODG. So why youre butting in and insinuating i have a different stance i do not know.

Once again either keep up with the debate or don't address me 😆

Handbooks are admissible as supplementary evidence to what takes place on panel.

With regards to Jeans telekinetic prowess, it is stated explicitly that Jean possessed telekinetic control of all the atoms of the universe. That is stated explicitly via statement and artistic depiction:

https://imgur.com/pfqD6pU

the Handbook was then updated following this incident to verify that Jean Grey as Phoenix possesses telekinetic control of atomic structures on a universal scale.

Prior to that it just stated that she had total telekinetic control of matter at the molecular level:

https://imgur.com/7gznS6V

It wasnt until after the New X-men 154 incident, that the scale was updated into her handbook entry:

https://imgur.com/hYX4UPd

This feat was stated on panel to be achieved via her telekinesis alone. Nowhere was it stated on panel to be location dependent, therefore you have zero conclusive evidence to make such assertions.

Without such evidence in the form of on panel statement or handbook verification, your point is null and void. ✅

Moving on..... 😮‍💨

Originally posted by h1a8
Then you have to prove that DP had this ability as well without having to go through all the steps Jean did (White Hot room, enlightenment, etc). Because DP never showed that ability in every showing. Not even 1/billionth of that magnitude.

I honestly think you might have a learning deficiency, or some kind of literacy impairment because this point has been addressed several times.

I will say this once more and then ignore any reiterations of this debunked nonsense. 😆

Unless a thread maker states that the Dark Phoenix involved in a thread, is strictly the showing that appeared in UXM 135 to 137 then according to forum rules, the abilities displayed by Jean Phoenix to date are admissible, as they are the same character just with a differing temperament at the forefront. There is zero conclusive evidence of a difference in ability/power level between the colours, with Marvel actually stating that Dark Phoenix has access to the Phoenix Force's full power. Galan has stated therefore that with evidence from Marvel that Dark Phoenix has the same power levels, then Jean Phoenix feats are admissible.

The handbooks confirm that she did. They explicitly state Dark Phoenix has access to the full power of the PF:

https://imgur.com/tlFpIFF

You cannot dispute that she didnt have access to the PFs full solely based on 40 yr old showings as feats in general were written at a lower scope as discussed in this thread and that was her only appearance bar Endsong in 2005. So she wouldnt have had the opportunity to benefit from decades of power creep in her appearances that characters like LT could. He went from solar level attacks being his max output in the 80's to becoming a multiversal power by his 90s appearances. Dark Phoenix meanwhile appeared in 1980 eating stars, (so exceeding the level stated to be LTs max back then) and at that point was stated to be 2nd to TOAA based on those showings, demonstrating Marvel considered her top tier at the time. The problem is she then didnt appear again till 2004/5

So with this in mind, given this thread isnt nerfing the character by limiting her powerset to the UXM 135 to 137 showing, all Jean Phoenix feats all the development the character has undergone to date are admissible according to the ruling.

You can disagree with the ruling all you want, but abide by it you will. ✅

All that would differ between Dark Phoenix and White Phoenix would be how they would use their power, NOT power level and capacity.

Originally posted by Smurph
Ya.

Hot air and delusion does not a conversation make.

Juntai can only speak for himself. 🙂

You pop up when you feel youve got back-up active in the thread.

When you get handled, you scarper. fear

Until next time. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Handbooks are admissible as supplementary evidence to what takes place on panel.

If a handbook states what on panel states then that would make them redundant. Redundant information is irrelevant as it has already been referenced. If a handbook doesnt state what happened on panel then it is not admissible. You are basically arguing in circles. You are assuming the handbook is restating what happened on panel without proof. If you had proof then why use the handbook? The on panel evidence stands on its on.

With regards to Jeans telekinetic prowess, it is stated explicitly that Jean possessed telekinetic control of all the atoms of the universe. That is stated explicitly via statement and artistic depiction:

https://imgur.com/pfqD6pU

the Handbook was then updated following this incident to verify that Jean Grey as Phoenix possesses telekinetic control of atomic structures on a universal scale.

Prior to that it just stated that she had total telekinetic control of matter at the molecular level:

https://imgur.com/7gznS6V

It wasnt until after the New X-men 154 incident, that the scale was updated into her handbook entry:

https://imgur.com/hYX4UPd

This feat was stated on panel to be achieved via her telekinesis alone. Nowhere was it stated on panel to be location dependent, therefore you have zero conclusive evidence to make such assertions.

Without such evidence in the form of on panel statement or handbook verification, your point is null and void. ✅

Moving on..... 😮‍💨

So two things.
1. Jeans location at the time
2. Jeans training to achieve such a thing

I honestly think you might have a learning deficiency, or some kind of literacy impairment because this point has been addressed several times.

I will say this once more and then ignore any reiterations of this debunked nonsense. 😆

Unless a thread maker states that the Dark Phoenix involved in a thread, is strictly the showing that appeared in UXM 135 to 137 then according to forum rules, the abilities displayed by Jean Phoenix to date are admissible, as they are the same character just with a differing temperament at the forefront. There is zero conclusive evidence of a difference in ability/power level between the colours, with Marvel actually stating that Dark Phoenix has access to the Phoenix Force's full power. Galan has stated therefore that with evidence from Marvel that Dark Phoenix has the same power levels, then Jean Phoenix feats are admissible.

No forum rule states this. White Crown Phoenix went through many steps (including training and her unique location) to achieve that state. On panel even states it's difficult to master and talks about training. A character can become more powerful by learning and mastering and going through specific events (like molecule man, Saitama, Superman, etc). DP never did any of those steps. Every showing by DP contradicts the power level you are trying to give her.
Neo (before having any training or going through the necessary process) can be bloodlusted. But that wouldn't give him the power of THE ONE. So your argument is faulty.

The handbooks confirm that she did. They explicitly state Dark Phoenix has access to the full power of the PF:

https://imgur.com/tlFpIFF

The PF power level varies. It can grow due to training and other steps that are plot driven. Saitama has the full power of Saitama but not the version that fought God Garou. Saitama power increased due to special circumstances.

You cannot dispute that she didnt have access to the PFs full solely based on 40 yr old showings as feats in general were written at a lower scope as discussed in this thread and that was her only appearance bar Endsong in 2005. So she wouldnt have had the opportunity to benefit from decades of power creep in her appearances that characters like LT could. He went from solar level attacks being his max output in the 80's to becoming a multiversal power by his 90s appearances. Dark Phoenix meanwhile appeared in 1980 eating stars, (so exceeding the level stated to be LTs max back then) and at that point was stated to be 2nd to TOAA based on those showings, demonstrating Marvel considered her top tier at the time. The problem is she then didnt appear again till 2004/5

That's not a feat dude. Lack of feats isn't a feat. You have to provide feats for DP.

So with this in mind, given this thread isnt nerfing the character by limiting her powerset to the UXM 135 to 137 showing, all Jean Phoenix feats all the development the character has undergone to date are admissible according to the ruling.

You can disagree with the ruling all you want, but abide by it you will. ✅

All that would differ between Dark Phoenix and White Phoenix would be how they would use their power, NOT power level and capacity.

Like I said
1. Steps to achieve a state
2. Location (outside of the universe) as a plot device
3. Contradictory showings everywhere
4. Alternative future feats are not permissible as evidence

Originally posted by h1a8
If a handbook states what on panel states then that would make them redundant. Redundant information is irrelevant as it has already been referenced. If a handbook doesnt state what happened on panel then it is not admissible. You are basically arguing in circles. You are assuming the handbook is restating what happened on panel without proof. If you had proof then why use the handbook? The on panel evidence stands on its on.

The handbook reiterating what happens on panel is exactly what handbooks are supposed to do.

The fact that you dont seem to realise that is not a surprise to me.

Said reiteration is helpful in debate as it gives additional weighting to someones interpretation of a scene where there exists a difference of opinion.

White Phoenixes on panel feats of note that are depicted via on panel statement and artistic depiction are amputating a future reality and manipulation of the atomic structure of a universe.

Both feats have been questioned, both feats are also verified by the Handbooks, thereby making the Handbooks a useful resource to settle disputes over ambiguous scenes.

Originally posted by h1a8
[b] You misquoted me. I added (while inside the normal universe). Also it states that Jean is in training in order to achieve that mastery. It's a know how thing and not a willingness thing.

So two things.
1. Jeans location at the time
2. Jeans training to achieve such a thing [b]

I didnt misquote you at all. In fact as a result of using the forums in-built quote function i kinda quoted exactly what you said. 🙄

You failed to process the implications of my refutation thats all.

The feat was stated on panel to be purely a result of her telekinesis and said telekinetic prowess was then updated in her profile entry as a part of her standard Phoenix abilities.

As such you have zero conclusive to make the assertion that the feat was only achievable because she was in the crystal. That wasnt stated on panel. The feat was only attributed to her telekinesis.

So the onus is on you to provide conclusive evidence to the contrary. Happy reading 🙂

Jean just like all Phoenixes are indicated to receive training to be a Phoenix, but that points irrelevant when this thread isnt specifically about the UXM 135 to 137 showing.

Originally posted by h1a8
No forum rule states this. White Crown Phoenix went through many steps (including training and her unique location) to achieve that state. On panel even states it's difficult to master and talks about training. A character can become more powerful by learning and mastering and going through specific events (like molecule man, Saitama, Superman, etc). DP never did any of those steps. Every showing by DP contradicts the power level you are trying to give her.
Neo (before having any training or going through the necessary process) can be bloodlusted. But that wouldn't give him the power of THE ONE. So your argument is faulty.

[b]

That's not a feat dude. Lack of feats isn't a feat. You have to provide feats for DP. [b] There was no ruling. White Crown Phoenix went through several steps to become what she was. DP did no such thing. That's like saying Daniel Larusso is equal to final Daniel before he received any training or experience going through specific plot devices. [b]

Like I said
1. Steps to achieve a state
2. Location (outside of the universe) as a plot device
3. Contradictory showings everywhere
4. Alternative future feats are not permissible as evidence

1) Irrelevant when we're not in a thread restricted to the UXM 135 to 137 showing
2) Location being a relevant factor is purely your supposition. The comic attributes the feat to her telekinesis. The Handbook does the same. Provide conclusive evidence stating explicitly that her telekinesis is limited to the boundaries of the M'kraan crystal. I'll wait.....😆
3) Zero contradictory showings. Her 1st appearance she had showings then other cosmics of the time and was stated to be 2nd to TOAA. She then didnt appear again for 25 yrs so hasnt had appearances in order to benefit from power creed. However if you compare her showings to Marvel cosmics of the late 70s up to 1980 shes top tier. You cant ignore that point. Thats disingenuous.
4) Alternate future feats and characters arent relevant to a discussion regarding 616 iterations of said character, but as ive shown, in Endsong, 616 Jean stated Here Comes Tomorrow was what she lived through and she reflected on her experiences there. Ive said this multiple times now and shown scans. Do not bring this up again.

Handled. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by h1a8

That's not a feat dude. Lack of feats isn't a feat. You have to provide feats for DP. [b] There was no ruling.

What doesnt seem to be sinking into your brain is that as Dark Phoenix is the same character and effectively just a temperament change, unless a thread maker limits the character to be debated with to the showing of UXM 135 to 137, then all Jean Phoenix feats and development to date is admissible as there is zero conclusive evidence of any difference in ability between Phoenix colours. The only difference stated being one of temperament and agenda.

Galan stated that if there is official evidence that Dark Phoenix operates on the same level as the other Phoenix colours then said other feats are admissible.

Marvel stated that Dark Phoenix has access to the full power of the Phoenix Force.

After the single 1980 showing, Dark Phoenix then didnt appear in a comic again until 2005 in Endsong. So trying to argue that she wasnt anywhere near as powerful as much later 2000's showings because of the late 70s/1980 level feats in her 1st and only appearance before Endsong is a disingenuous and superficial analysis. The crux of the matter is as its the same character, any development or power increase is referenceable in a thread that is unrestricted and not limiting the showing to UXM 135 to 137. We're instead arguing modern Jean Phoenix, gone Dark Phoenix.

Regardless, you have an official source stating the Dark Phoenix state has access to the full power of the PF therefore Galans ruling applies.

Submit 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Juntai can only speak for himself. 🙂

You pop up when you feel youve got back-up active in the thread.

When you get handled, you scarper. fear

Until next time. 😮‍💨

It's one thing to vehemently assert that Jean can casually warp the multiverse based on an at-best (and I'm being more than kind) loosely-supported reading of a scene.

It's another thing to put your fingers in your ears and insist that Jean under any Phoenix personality should be able to feat share.... based on at-best loosely-supported reading of her entire history.

But to argue that Dark Phoenix Jean is therefore multiversal, while doggedly refusing to cite a single Dark Phoenix feat, shows a true dedication to looking f*cking stupid.

Originally posted by Smurph
My dude, what I've gathered from this thread is that your commitment to misconstruing Phoenix runs back decades.

Misconstruing? You havent been able to counter a single point ive made.

Unless by misconstruing you mean doggedly evidencing points that dont align with your baseless interpretations?

In that case imma miscontrue till the cows come home! 😱

Originally posted by Smurph
It's one thing to vehemently assert that Jean can casually warp the multiverse based on an at-best (and I'm being more than kind) loosely-supported reading of a scene.

Where have i stated Jean can casually warp the multiverse? Quote me saying that specifically 😱

Originally posted by Smurph
It's another thing to put your fingers in your ears and insist that Jean under any Phoenix personality should be able to feat share.... based on at-best loosely-supported reading of her entire history.

I never stated that at all. What i said was that there was zero conclusive evidence or explicit statement regarding any power difference between the Phoenix colours and that instead the colours would bring about a difference in propensity which would dictate how they would use their abilities in comparison to each other.

Thats significantly different than your accusation.

Try again b*tch 😆

Originally posted by Smurph
But to argue that Dark Phoenix Jean is therefore multiversal, while doggedly refusing to cite a single Dark Phoenix feat, shows a true dedication to looking f*cking stupid.

As ive stated from the start, its the same character, who is stated explicitly to have access to the full power of the Phoenix Force. As i demonstrated through....say it with me now....EVIDENCE! 😱 😆

So there is zero distinction to be made beyond temperament and subsequent propensity.

Any perceived difference in power is the result of the single other Dark Phoenix showing stemming from 1980 when feats were written at a lower scope. Not acknowledging that significant factor reeks of the disingenuity that characterizes your whole contribution to this thread.

Now run along and go hunt for that elusive evidence that you have so far neglected to bring to the table.

Toodles diva 😆

Since it got bumped, the only person who has been debating with any shred of integrity (other than myself of course 😉 ) has been Juntai.

Everyone else is some sorry ragtag bunch of butthurt old opponents and their prima donna support 😆