Originally posted by SasuOna
Thats because it never happens, Wolverine feels immense pain from simply getting hit by them. The only reason he survives is because of his healing factor.
WWH shows whats happens when you keep beating on him repeatedly even Cap can do that with Multiple hits from his Shield.
Right because everyone KNOWS Cap hits as hard as WWH! 😱
Originally posted by jinzin
Right because everyone KNOWS Cap hits as hard as WWH! 😱
i think what he's getting at is the brain shakes sufficiently enough to cause KO from a certain point of power. So obviously anything above that should also cause a KO.
An example maybe.., lets take a glass bottle. I can smash it by throwing a coin against it right? Now it may not smash everytime, but it's possible. And then someone else can shoot it with a bullet. The thrown coin (class 2 punch) and the Bullet (class 100 punch) both have the same effect. The broken bottle (a KO due to reverberation of brain to skull).
The thing is, he's not all the way wrong, a KO is like a switch , not a meter of damage, a seasoned boxer is suseptable to ko in 5 seconds of a round, he doesn;t have to have had his head smashed for 10 rounds (overloading his hf and lessening his durability for instance) in order for him to be suseptable to KO. But this is more real world theory and not really comic applicable. 🙂
Yeah that's just it, Wolverine doesn't follow real world comparisons and theory because of the HF, the shock absorbing metal, and his body's ability to adapt to pain and weakness, specifically mentioned about his brain altering itself on a physical level out of an instinct to protect him.
Srank was right; Wolverine WAS taken out by repeated blows to the head, but the amount his brain was rocked/mushed/liquified inside the space of his skull was a result of the class 100 blows he was being hit with.
With less power, the effect inside the skull would be less... well.... effective. And, the difference between Hulk's strength and Cap's strength is MASSIVELY undersold if you're comparing a thrown coin to a bullet. This is like comparing a thrown coin to the Tsar bomb.
The fact is, we saw Wolverine able to take that power with no problem several times before it began to affect him. The notion that Cap could do ANY amount of damage that could even compare to that of Hulk is disengenous when you take into account the vast differences of the two in terms of sheer power.
While I understand the notion of a typical knockout theory applying to Logan, he simply does not abide by that.
For God sakes it took Frankencastle 4 blows to do the same to Logan in what's considered a low showing and that's STILL a vast amount of power that Cap can't produce.
Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah that's just it, Wolverine doesn't follow real world comparisons and theory because of the HF, the shock absorbing metal, and his body's ability to adapt to pain and weakness, specifically mentioned about his brain altering itself on a physical level out of an instinct to protect him.
That also applies to Cap's punches.
Originally posted by jinzin
Srank was right; Wolverine WAS taken out by repeated blows to the head, but the amount his brain was rocked/mushed/liquified inside the space of his skull was a result of the class 100 blows he was being hit with.
With less power, the effect inside the skull would be less... well.... effective. And, the difference between Hulk's strength and Cap's strength is MASSIVELY undersold if you're comparing a thrown coin to a bullet. This is like comparing a thrown coin to the Tsar bomb.The fact is, we saw Wolverine able to take that power with no problem several times before it began to affect him. The notion that Cap could do ANY amount of damage that could even compare to that of Hulk is disengenous when you take into account the vast differences of the two in terms of sheer power.
While I understand the notion of a typical knockout theory applying to Logan, he simply does not abide by that.
Cap doesn't KO and stun bricks with brute force so that argument is irrelevant especially when it involves using pressure points.
Secondly you can't use the WWH example to prove that Cap can't KO Wolverine. We don't pick the highest showings we take all the showings and we average them out.
Originally posted by jinzin
For God sakes it took Frankencastle 4 blows to do the same to Logan in what's considered a low showing and that's STILL a vast amount of power that Cap can't produce.
Punisher has been able to stun Wolverine without superhuman strength, so no its not a low showing at all. Please stop arguing that Cap needs to produce an equivalent amount of force.
Originally posted by Starscream M
no street leveler is KOing logan with punches.capt could potentially do it with repeated shield bashes...but he obviously wouldn't get that on logan.
I see his only option for win is if he uses shield to either rip logan's throat apart or gut him.
Despite the fact that Cap has Koed (using his fist) and stunned people with who can take class 100 shots?
Not to mention Jinzen or Juken have no idea what their talking about and are blindly following skrank's incorrect assertion that it always takes the Hulk's Strength to rapidly knock Wolverine's head back and forth.
Not to mention applying the ballistic pattern of a glass bottle which we know is going to break to something thats not going to break is just dumb.
If Wolverine has admantium new muscles or the World's strongest neck then you would have to prove that not just use conjecture to say that his adamantium absorbs force when we see him get knocked back by people weaker then the Hulk all the time.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Fights of varying lengths.
Mate some of Wolverine's fights are short, there is one where alot is off panel. Sorry not seeing any proof here.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Professor Hulk's healing factor wasn't nearly as powerful as Savage Hulks or Wolverine's.
I really think you're making stuff up. I was under the impression that Prof Hulk was more powerful than Savage Hulk and I've seen Prof Hulk heal from a massive hole in the chest.
http://mynetimages.com/viewimage/26abc674
http://mynetimages.com/viewimage/1843362a
I thought I saw scans in the respect thread of Wolverine getting his hurt ripped out and taking a similar amount of time to get up. Hulks injuries are worse.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Regardless of there effect on Professor Hulk, pressure points don't work on Wolverine,
You are dodging the point. Professor Hulk is alot more durable than Wolverine and has a comparable healing factor. You don't then decide that because hes not Wolverine that it won't work on him. Its like trying to argue that Thor Koing Namor isn't proof that he can KO Luke Cage, because Luke Cages durability is different.
You are using faulty logic just because something is different doesn't mean that a comparison can't be made. In this example you need to actually prove that they are so different a comparison can't be made instead of making assumptions.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
they didn't work on Wolverine in his original mini even when he was poisoned with a healing factor 1/100th as powerful as it is now.
So Shingen is as skilled as Cap?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They didn't work when Ogun was training him.
Well for starters Wolverine went into a beserker rage, which makes him even more resistant this doesn't mean it won't work on regular Wolverine. Hell they mave have worked if Ogun was more serious.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They didn't work when Echo attached him. They didn't work when he was living in the mountains in Japan in some warrior village.
Right so Echo, some japanese guys in warrior village = Cap?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine and the Hulk are not interchangeable
You have not provided any proof that Hulks HF is not interchangeable and you have not provided any logical explanation is to why its not interchangeable. All you have done is express your opinion. I see this alot, people make statements and feel that just by making a statement without backing it up with any proof constitutes proof.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
and the fact remains that pressure points have been stated to have no effect on Wolverine other than making him angry.
Yea and DD said he couldn't read Captain America because of his metabolism. Just because somebody says something don't mean its fact when theres nothing to back it up.
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
It not Theory it fact. It was even stated in his newest run that ever person healing factor operates differently. They heal and respond in different ways and speed.
Just because somebody states that all HF are different doesn't mean that what works on one HF won't work on another when they both have comparable showings. Blunt force trauma and other attacks both affect Wolverine and Hulk the same way. Obvoulsy speed will make a difference but apart from that you need to actually provide proof. There is no on-panel proof that there is vast difference between HFs apart from speed.
Originally posted by Juk3nPretty much, healing healing doesn't remove "ko", it removes tissue damage and things of the like.
i think what he's getting at is the brain shakes sufficiently enough to cause KO from a certain point of power. So obviously anything above that should also cause a KO.An example maybe.., lets take a glass bottle. I can smash it by throwing a coin against it right? Now it may not smash everytime, but it's possible. And then someone else can shoot it with a bullet. The thrown coin (class 2 punch) and the Bullet (class 100 punch) both have the same effect. The broken bottle (a KO due to reverberation of brain to skull).
The thing is, he's not all the way wrong, a KO is like a switch , not a meter of damage, a seasoned boxer is suseptable to ko in 5 seconds of a round, he doesn;t have to have had his head smashed for 10 rounds (overloading his hf and lessening his durability for instance) in order for him to be suseptable to KO. But this is more real world theory and not really comic applicable. 🙂
Wolverine's healing is an enhanced version of a humans though, and he can't heal damage before it happens. I said this way back in 05.
That said Wolverine doesn't need a barrage of hits to be ko'ed, he just needs to be hit really hard, or really right. It's just harder to do. Oh and comics aren't going to show a megastar character ko'ed instantly in *any* fight, unless there's a really good plot reason for it. By that same token, Spider-Man has taken hits from class 100's and made it fine as well.
Ko's aren't a meter for damage and their are different types of damage. That said ko'ing him isn't a walk in the park. But it isn't impossible and it doesn't take Captain America "hitting him for a week", to damage him. Wolverine's healing has been protrayed all over the place for the sake of the plot as well.
Originally posted by SasuOna
Not to mention Jinzen or Juken have no idea what their talking about and are blindly following skrank's incorrect assertion that it always takes the Hulk's Strength to rapidly knock Wolverine's head back and forth.Not to mention applying the ballistic pattern of a glass bottle which we know is going to break to something thats not going to break is just dumb.
1) You must have reading comprehension problems.
2) You can't follow the example because of said reading comprehension problems, my "argument" was infact that it DOESN'T require the force of Hulk to initiate the real world KO mechanic of a brain, but you didnt get that..because of what now? Yes, that pesky reading comprehension problem.
Originally posted by SasuOna
when we see him get knocked back by people weaker then the Hulk all the time.
For every 1 person you can name that Knocked Wolverine out, i can show you 5 or 10 people STRONGER who have failed. You have to average out the durability showings. And his average durability showings put him beyond Caps average damage output showings.
You wont understand a word ive written i understand, but maybe you could get a friend to explain it to you or something?
Originally posted by SasuOnathe prove is in what the tinkerer says about Wolverine's adamantium skeleton properties as a shock absorber and it not being the only time it has been mention of it's ability to absorb kinetic energy transfer. 😬If Wolverine has admantium new muscles or the World's strongest neck then you would have to prove that not just use conjecture to say that his adamantium absorbs force when we see him get knocked back by people weaker then the Hulk all the time.
Originally posted by Juk3n
For every 1 person you can name that Knocked Wolverine out, i can show you 5 or 10 people STRONGER who have failed. You have to average out the durability showings. And his average durability showings put him beyond Caps average damage output showings.You wont understand a word ive written i understand, but maybe you could get a friend to explain it to you or something?
we should make a thread for this
Originally posted by King Castle
the prove is in what the tinkerer says about Wolverine's adamantium skeleton properties as a shock absorber and it not being the only time it has been mention of it's ability to absorb kinetic energy transfer. 😬
Its a good thing, that Cap isn't going to use brutre force then isn't it?
Originally posted by Juk3n
And his average durability showings put him beyond Caps average damage output showings.
Cap doesn't fight bricks on average but when he does he can usually at least stun them
Originally posted by Deadlinei dont recall Cap using pressure point attack to ko, Hulk or Namor... maybe to cause them pain with an attack that would otherwise not work..
I already said Proffessor Hulk, he also pressure pointed Namor underwater.
more often then not it is just a pis attack where there was no mention of pressure points being the reason for ko'ing a class 100+ of their caliber.
could you pls post the scan so we can see what it is you are referencing.
by the way i actually believe that Namor is more susceptible to pressure point attacks than guys like Wolverine and Sabe due to Namor's healing factor actually not being on par nor as effective as theirs. just b/c he has a healing factor doesnt mean it is the same or operates the same as Logan's.
Prof hulk is another matter entirely his does operate similar to logan's with slight differences in weaknesses but even still i dont recall Cap ever ko'ing Prof Hulk with a pressure point blow
Originally posted by Deadline
Cap doesn't fight bricks on average but when he does he can usually at least stun them
The difference is A) no brick Cap has ever fought is more durable than adamantium (for the shock absorb argument), And B) bricks cap has 'stunned' with a HF comparable to Wolverine? I'll bet its a very minority showing. And Wolverine DOES fight bricks on average and they MAINLY fail to KO him. Sometimes the real world logic has to be damned because feats > what should happen.
Spider-man can dodge bullets because his majority showing show him capable of it. Has he been hit before? Sure, but we don't hold it against him because of his average showings. Applies here.
Originally posted by King Castle
i dont recall Cap using pressure point attack to ko, Hulk or Namor... maybe to cause them pain with an attack that would otherwise not work..
He didn't Ko proffesor Hulk he stunned him momentarily. Yes hes Koed Namor underwater. Didn't read your post properly.
Originally posted by King Castle
more often then not it is just a pis attack where there was no mention of pressure points being the reason for ko'ing a class 100+ of their caliber.
You don't get to dictate whats PIS or isn't just because you don't like it.
Originally posted by King Castlecould you pls post the scan so we can see what it is you are referencing.
I would have to dig it up and I can't be arsed to find them.
Originally posted by King Castleby the way i actually believe that Namor is more susceptible to pressure point attacks than guys like Wolverine and Sabe due to Namor's healing factor actually not being on par nor as effective as theirs. just b/c he has a healing factor doesnt mean it is the same or operates the same as Logan's.
There is no proof to back that opinion up and of coures you would think that.
Originally posted by King CastleProf hulk is another matter entirely his does operate similar to logan's with slight differences in weaknesses but even still i dont recall Cap ever ko'ing Prof Hulk with a pressure point blow
He didn't KO him, please don't argue that Wolverine is harder to KO than Professor Hulk. Don't even think about it.
Originally posted by Juk3n
The difference is A) no brick Cap has ever fought is more durable than adamantium (for the shock absorb argument),
Irrelevant he doesn't use brute force. I can think of one martial artist who used pressure points against a kinetic absorber eg Red Lotus vs Sebastien Shaw.
Originally posted by Juk3n
And B) bricks cap has 'stunned' with a HF comparable to Wolverine? I'll bet its a very minority showing.
Proffessor Hulk. You also making the baseless asumption that because a brick doesn't have a comparable factor HF that it won't work on Wolverine.
Cap doesn't hit with class 100 force but they can be just as effective, both Wolverine and bricks react in the same way when they get by class 100 punches.
Originally posted by Juk3n
And Wolverine DOES fight bricks on average and they MAINLY fail to KO him. Sometimes the real world logic has to be damned because feats > what should happen.
Which is why Cap wins 2/10 or 3.
Originally posted by Juk3nSpider-man can dodge bullets because his majority showing show him capable of it. Has he been hit before? Sure, but we don't hold it against him because of his average showings. Applies here.
Depends on whos firing the gun doesn't it?