Originally posted by darthbane77
You'll be happy to know I don't have Revan that high anymore, and I'm not sure what possessed me to think he was in the first place. But my opinion that Revan shares parity with the likes of ROTS Sidious and Yoda (in terms of the Force ONLY) is still very much intact.
Spoiler:
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Originally posted by darthbane77
You'll be happy to know I don't have Revan that high anymore, and I'm not sure what possessed me to think he was in the first place. But my opinion that Revan shares parity with the likes of ROTS Sidious and Yoda (in terms of the Force ONLY) is still very much intact.
That's canonically untrue. As well as by feats.
I didn't say they directly scaled off him, although you can easily interpret Revan as a foe of the darkness and thus Yoda being stronger, but given that even TPM Palpatine is factually more powerful than Vitiate/Valkorion, I don't think it's difficult to see RotS Sidious or Yoda above Revan.
And then there's feats, like I said.
Originally posted by SunRazerI don't think any of ROTS Palpatine's or Yoda's feats put them solidly above Revan. They're superior by a slight margin, but not by any large degree. True, you could consider Revan a foe of the darkness, so I grant you that, but I interpret it as more of being a lesser evil; so he's Dark Side but he isn't Sith. It more just Dark Side v Dark Side with Revan a that point. TPM Palpatine isn't above Valkorion or even Vitiate for that matter. A case for Plagueis could be made for being above Vitiate, but even then it's highly debatable depending on whether one considers back cover blurbs as canon, which I do not. That's also a debate (cover blurb debate) that I don't feel like having at the moment.
I didn't say they directly scaled off him, although you can easily interpret Revan as a foe of the darkness and thus Yoda being stronger, but given that even TPM Palpatine is factually more powerful than Vitiate/Valkorion, I don't think it's difficult to see RotS Sidious or Yoda above Revan.And then there's feats, like I said.
No. Sourcebooks outright state that TPM Sidious is the most powerful Sith Master ever. There's no need for the blurb.
As for Revan being a foe of the darkness, if you agree to that, then Yoda scales off him, since Yoda is the most powerful foe the darkness has ever faced according to RotS.
I don't have time for an extensive feats analysis right now, but regardless, I was contesting the notion that they were equal, which is what you suggested earlier with the word "parity".
Originally posted by SunRazer
No. Sourcebooks outright state that TPM Sidious is the most powerful Sith Master ever. There's no need for the blurb.As for Revan being a foe of the darkness, if you agree to that, then Yoda scales off him, since Yoda is the most powerful foe the darkness has ever faced according to RotS.
I don't have time for an extensive feats analysis right now, but regardless, I was contesting the notion that they were equal, which is what you suggested earlier with the word "parity".
I didn't say I agree with that, I said "True, you could consider Revan a foe of the darkness, so I grant you that, but I interpret it as more of being a lesser evil; so he's Dark Side but he isn't Sith. It more just Dark Side v Dark Side with Revan a that point." So what I said is that Revan's situation at that point can be interpreted in different ways, your impression of it is a valid one, but so is mine.
Yeah, that's my bad, I used the wrong word. Revan is arguably on par with them, what's more likely is that he's slightly below them. So I apologize for confusing my vocabulary there.
Originally posted by darthbane77
James Luceno disagrees.
He doesn't. He thought Plagueis could undermine Sidious in a duel, which doesn't necessarily refer to being more powerful. Sidious grew more powerful and factually surpassed Plagueis upon killing him anyway. The quote I'm talking about refers to Sidious after striking down Plagueis. Luceno's opinion only refers to pre-Plagueis death Sidious, not post-Plagueis death as I'm referring to.
Author opinions don't matter anyway.
I didn't say I agree with that, I said "True, you could consider Revan a foe of the darkness, so I grant you that, but I interpret it as more of being a lesser evil; so he's Dark Side but he isn't Sith. It more just Dark Side v Dark Side with Revan a that point." So what I said is that Revan's situation at that point can be interpreted in different ways, your impression of it is a valid one, but so is mine.
I didn't say he has to be Sith. I'm not scaling Sidious off him, lmfao. The point is that Yoda is the most formidable foe the darkness has ever known up to RotS. Ergo, he's stronger than Revan overall.
Yeah, that's my bad, I used the wrong word. Revan is arguably on par with them, what's more likely is that he's slightly below them. So I apologize for confusing my vocabulary there.
No, he isn't on par with them at all. TPM Sidious alone is more powerful than Valkorion, who's more powerful than Vitiate, who's more powerful than Revan. Never mind RotS Sidious, who's continually grown in power since TPM Sidious, and Yoda, who's equal to or virtually equal to RotS Sidious in power.
Revan isn't anywhere near as powerful as beings that can cause weather storms across galactic distances just by appearing as a hologram.
Originally posted by AncientPower
So now Razer is using a level 4 children's literacy guide for the TPM movie, all common sense has been lost.
It's a factual, objective Legends source that refers to all of history. Common sense is that it applies.
Applying demeaning descriptions to sources to try and undermine their validity for the purposes of forwarding an agenda is hardly what I'd call common sense, either.
Originally posted by SunRazer
He doesn't. He thought Plagueis could undermine Sidious in a duel, which doesn't necessarily refer to being more powerful. Sidious grew more powerful and factually surpassed Plagueis upon killing him anyway. The quote I'm talking about refers to Sidious after striking down Plagueis. Luceno's opinion only refers to pre-Plagueis death Sidious, not post-Plagueis death as I'm referring to.Author opinions don't matter anyway.
I didn't say he has to be Sith. I'm not scaling Sidious off him, lmfao. The point is that Yoda is the most formidable foe the darkness has ever known up to RotS. Ergo, he's stronger than Revan overall.
No, he isn't on par with them at all. TPM Sidious alone is more powerful than Valkorion, who's more powerful than Vitiate, who's more powerful than Revan. Never mind RotS Sidious, who's continually grown in power since TPM Sidious, and Yoda, who's equal to or virtually equal to RotS Sidious in power.
Revan isn't anywhere near as powerful as beings that can cause weather storms across galactic distances just by appearing as a hologram.
"That's testament to his strength in the Force. Likewise, "skill and ability to do so" doesn't necessarily mean Palpatine was superior. Luke bested Vader without being superior to him, Zannah bested Bane without (arguably) being superior to him. It simple suggests that Sidious, by that point, had acquired the means to be able to kill Plagueis. Not that Sidious was actually superior. More like a "I've learned a lot from you but I can take it from here" kind of thing."
I already explained why Revan wasn't technically a champion against the darkness, meaning he isn't covered by the Yoda quote (not saying Revan is >Yoda btw, because he isn't.) But you seem to have skipped over that explanation entirely.
The fact that the text you're referring to leave TPM Sidious' "superiority" to Valkorion completely up to debate. Valkorion isn't Sith and therefore isn't covered under the blanket of Sidious' "greatest ever" feats and accolades. As well, feats also say otherwise. Vitiate has feats approaching ROTS Sidious level, and Valkorion is considerably more powerful than Vitiate was. Which would mean Valkorion is likely approaching at least TFU or ROTJ Sidious level, and a case can even be made for Valkorion approaching DE Sidious level.
And again, a lot of this is dependent on 1: the back cover blurb and 2: interpretation of text, which I 1: do not consider canon, and 2: interpret differently than you.
On the topic of Revan, he has plenty of feats that are comparable to Yoda and Palpatine's.
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's a factual, objective Legends source that refers to all of history. Common sense is that it applies.Applying demeaning descriptions to sources to try and undermine their validity for the purposes of forwarding an agenda is hardly what I'd call common sense, either.
It isn't actually Legends though, it's a guide for the movie and only references the saga, nothing more. I own the thing, it's barely even a sourcebook.
It isn't an agenda, so much as an appeal to common sense. The statement directly contradicts the fact that we know Plagueis > Sidious at the time of his death according to Legends.
We also have the direct contradiction that Sidious killed Plagueis first and took Maul as a genuine Sith apprentice. Neither of which align with the Plagueis novel either.
If you're going to make an actual argument regarding Sidious > Vitiate, at least do so without shitting on your own intelligence. You're far smarter than this.
Originally posted by darthbane77
I just had this same debate with Ant on Facebook actually, I interpreted the text as meaning something difference based on other things that have occurred in the mythos that are similar to Sidious' killing of Plagueis. This is what I told Ant, part of what I told him anyway."That's testament to his strength in the Force. Likewise, "skill and ability to do so" doesn't necessarily mean Palpatine was superior. Luke bested Vader without being superior to him, Zannah bested Bane without (arguably) being superior to him. It simple suggests that Sidious, by that point, had acquired the means to be able to kill Plagueis. Not that Sidious was actually superior. More like a "I've learned a lot from you but I can take it from here" kind of thing."
Sidious isn't superior at the time he kills Plagueis, but he's superior after he kills Plagueis. The novel depicts him growing more powerful upon killing Damask, and sources confirm his superiority after doing so. You can find them on my TPM Sidious RT.
I already explained why Revan wasn't technically a champion against the darkness, meaning he isn't covered by the Yoda quote (not saying Revan is >Yoda btw, because he isn't.) But you seem to have skipped over that explanation entirely.
Well, Revan defines himself as exactly that in the novel, so at least that version is counted. But at this point, we're just arguing semantics. If you do believe that Revan counts as a foe of the darkness, then Yoda scales off him. That's all it comes down to.
The fact that the text you're referring to leave TPM Sidious' "superiority" to Valkorion completely up to debate. Valkorion isn't Sith and therefore isn't covered under the blanket of Sidious' "greatest ever" feats and accolades.
Valkorion's stated to be a Sith entity.
As well, feats also say otherwise.
Running by feats, Revan isn't close to on par with Sidious or Yoda.
Vitiate has feats approaching ROTS Sidious level, and Valkorion is considerably more powerful than Vitiate was. Which would mean Valkorion is likely approaching at least TFU or ROTJ Sidious level, and a case can even be made for Valkorion approaching DE Sidious level.
Not really. TPM Sidious has already concealed himself from Yoda's senses, grown tenfold in power since effortlessly collapsing buildings, and been anointed by galaxy-wide dark side shockwaves. He also gets scaling from Plagueis' feats.
RotS Sidious' feats are already superior, and there's the accolades.
On the topic of Revan, he has plenty of feats that are comparable to Yoda and Palpatine's.
Like?
Originally posted by AncientPower
It isn't actually Legends though, it's a guide for the movie and only references the saga, nothing more. I own the thing, it's barely even a sourcebook.
It is Legends. It's from before the split, therefore it applies to Legends. And it refers to all of history. I mean, when it says "most powerful Sith Master who ever lived", do you really think that just applies to nobody? lol
It isn't an agenda, so much as an appeal to common sense. The statement directly contradicts the fact that we know Plagueis > Sidious at the time of his death according to Legends.
It refers to after Plagueis' death, by which time Sidious is canonically more powerful than Plagueis.
We also have the direct contradiction that Sidious killed Plagueis first and took Maul as a genuine Sith apprentice. Neither of which align with the Plagueis novel either.
Then that's an inaccuracy. Most sourcebooks have inaccuracies one way or another - doesn't mean the entirety of it is invalidated.
If you're going to make an actual argument regarding Sidious > Vitiate, at least do so without shitting on your own intelligence. You're far smarter than this.
I've made alternate cases many times. I'm just using available evidence to make another.
You realise the official Canon timeline reflects what the guide says? Sidious killed Plagueis beforehand and took Maul as his apprentice. It is not an inaccuracy, if anything it further reflects the fact it's the equivalent of a G-canon reference guide with no reference or baring on the actual C-canon. To go back a few years.
Originally posted by SunRazerThe text doesn't say he became more powerful than Plagueis' upon Damask's death, it only makes note that Sidious increased in power.
Sidious isn't superior [b]at the time he kills Plagueis, but he's superior after he kills Plagueis. The novel depicts him growing more powerful upon killing Damask, and sources confirm his superiority after doing so. You can find them on my TPM Sidious RT.Well, Revan defines himself as exactly that in the novel, so at least that version is counted. But at this point, we're just arguing semantics. If you do believe that Revan counts as a foe of the darkness, then Yoda scales off him. That's all it comes down to.
Valkorion's stated to be a Sith entity.
Running by feats, Revan isn't close to on par with Sidious or Yoda.
Not really. TPM Sidious has already concealed himself from Yoda's senses, grown tenfold in power since effortlessly collapsing buildings, and been anointed by galaxy-wide dark side shockwaves. He also gets scaling from Plagueis' feats.
RotS Sidious' feats are already superior, and there's the accolades.
Like? [/B]
The novel version of Revan is counted I agree. I don't count SoR Revan as an enemy of the darkness as much as an extension of darkness opposing another extension of darkness, much like rivalry between Sith. They're both dark, but are arrayed against each other.
He also states that he is no longer Sith, the quote to which you're referring was based on the knowledge that the Coalition had at the time, they assumed Vitiate was still Sith; therefore the quote reflects as much because it's expressing and recapping what the player already knows before beginning KOTFE.
Vitiate hid his presence from the Jedi for over a thousand years. Jedi Master Baral Ovair was a Sith spy who hid himself from the Jedi for decades as well, which means it's possible to easily hide from the Jedi for more than just the ultra powerful Sith, so that alone takes away from Sidious' feat.
Revan being (arguably) hindered a DS nexus against Vitiate who would have been amped by the nexus. Contending (twice) and barely falling to a strike team consisting of the 8 protags at the Temple of Sacrifice, and then again at the Forgotten Terrace against an almost equally impressive strike team, both teams being superior to the B-team that Sheev steamrolled. Causing a galaxy wide disturbance in the Force that left many Force users (such as Lana Beniko) shaken and doubting themselves. And that's just novel and SoR feats, others that I think are at least somewhat comparable would be Revan bwing hindered while fighting through the Star Forge non-stop against dozens upon dozens of amped Sith and SF droids and then fighting an amped Dark Bastila and Darth Malak back to back, as well as fighting his way out of the Valley of the Dark Lords and through the Dreshdae settlement against the hundreds of Sith that were present at the time; Revan would have, once again, been hindered by the DS Nexus on Korriban while his opponents were amped.
On a side note, I think I'm getting better at this, lol.