I don't agree with this notion of Force rage amping your Force strength. Why? Because Force users are naturally amping themselves in a fight to perform super acrobatics.
I am not here to confirm or infirm these scenes. But to say Force rage makes a Force user stronger is stupid. Force rage is just a power to strengthen your body just like Jedi use a reverse power(forgot its name) to do that.
People keep thinking the Dark Side>Light Side, and it's frustrating.
Originally posted by HP Legend
Before the fight although unfortunately I can't provide the quote as I don't actually own a copy of the book.Not that it matters considering Starkiller was amped back to his normal levels anyway as proven in my post.
Okay thanks.
Cant find my damn copy either.
Moved house too many times. Should buy everything in digital.
1. No I don't subsribe to the fact that Vader was holding back.
Good.
2. The first part of your argument would be fine if it wasn't a blatant strawmann. Vader was not beaten by an exhausted Starkiller LMAO. The part you completely missed when you made this argument is unironically shown in the quotes you provided."Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now."
-The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization
Now as you can see from the above quote it very clearly is insinuating that Vader has improved and is now a match for a more powerful version of Starkiller. Now if we go by your logic and say Starkiller was astronomically weakened then why does the text say that Vader had learned to deal with Starkiller? How can Vader have learned to deal with Starkiller when he is literally equaling an exhausted version?
The idea that Vader’s “learned from that mistake” is demonstrated through Vader’s actions to weaken Starkiller before fighting him and his subsequent performance against him. Nothing inherently demands nor suggests the quote only works if they’re both fighting at their peak. Vader starts by sending all the other Galen Marek clones to attack Starkiller. Note that Vader wants Starkiller alive, so unleashing the clones reveals A.) Vader’s belief that Starkiller can kill the them and B.) Vader plans to weaken, exhaust, and/or injure Starkiller before fighting him; otherwise, there’s no reason to send them after Starkiller. This is exactly what happens, for Starkiller has to unleash almost the totality of his raw power to destroy the cloning facility and the clones, which exhausts Starkiller “to every level of his being.”
”Together they could easily have turned on their creator and overpowered him. Instead they were driven to destroy their own.”
Also, note that Starkiller believes the clones could have easily turned and destroyed Vader. Unless Starkiller’s totally deceived by Vader’s power, that’s clear indication that Starkiller’s vastly more powerful than Vader, given Starkiller can destroy all the clones in a single blast whereas Vader would be swiftly annihilated by their combined might.
The novel goes to great lengths to show that the only reason Starkiller is still standing is because of Juno and because he cares for her. These entire segments of Starkiller being stated to be exhausted are meant to show how his love for Juno can make him recover. After going 13 days without food his love for Juno is literally enough to make him feel stronger than ever:
You’re ignoring that Starkiller has a period of rest and the opportunity for meditation between his thirteen days of torture and when that statement is made. It’s not that he’s suddenly exhausted, feels love for Juno, and his entire Force reserves abruptly fill up again. That idea, besides just blatantly ridiculous by just thinking about it, is completely contradictory to the lore, actually.
For instance, Starkiller, actively moving through Kamino to save Juno from Vader, retains his Force exhaustion after atomizing the Salvation and struggles to lift a relatively miniscule ship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhOMe5NPfeI&t=9m55s. Did Starkiller just forget about Juno or that, by thinking of her, his energies are immediately replenished? Seems odd.
Likewise, we have prime Luke Skywalker incapable of instantly replenishing his Force reserves by thinking of Ben and Mara, despite advocating in love as a useful tool to use the light side. This happens midway through the Fate of the Jedi series: He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones. He wondered if the same was true of Abeloth. Rather, Luke seems to believe the only way to cover is substantial food, rest, and meditation. Has Starkiller just discovered a rare Force technique that even Luke had no clue about? Or are you just wildly misconstruct these statements to desperately force the idea that Starkiller’s not weakened down our throats?
Most importantly, it’s terribly unconvincing that the quote you’re using even refers to Force power rather than Starkiller adjusting from the psychological effects of Vader’s torture and presence and now having newfound determination. It writes about how, “Being in Vader's clutches for what felt like a lifetime,” “He had forgotten what it felt like to be a free agent,” etc. These ideas have absolutely nothing to do with weakening Starkiller. Hell, the text doesn’t make one mention of “Force,” “reserves,” or “energy” throughout the passage. It's speaking to how Starkiller was enslaved and imprisoned by Vader, but now he's outside, free to roam, and in pursuit of finding the women he loves. *That* makes him "feel" stronger than ever.
tl;dr: context is key
You can say all you want that he was exhausted but canon simply does not agree with you.
Canon doesn’t agree with me? Canon writes how Starkiller just unleashed all his power twice-over in the span of an hour or less, then proceeds to fight Vader with basically no rest inbetween. You’re the one attempting to counter that by saying feeling love for something immediately overwrites and replenishes all that lost power, which is arguably one of the most outlandish beliefs ever presented in a Star Wars debate, Azronger’s arguments included.
2. Vader losing the fight was a cheapshot lol. Starkiller getting one hit on Vader which makes use of the weakness of his suit does not prove his superiority as a force user. Vader basically tanked that blast and only nearly lost because of the weakness of his suit not because Starkiller was a better force user or duellist in fact as I mentioned the text notes the opposite.
Red herring. I never claimed it made Starkiller a superior Force user. However, I did mention it for a reason. It’s completely inconsistent to claim that Starkiller and Vader fight as relative equals where Starkiller’s indisputably able to gain an upper hand and defeat Vader to then Vader ragdolling an empowered, enraged Starkiller. That would mean Vader’s powers fluctuated dramatically in the span of minutes, e.g. an end-all, be-all inconsistency.
Also, how was it a cheap-shot? Starkiller landed a tactically placed move against an armed and combat-ready Vader. It’s no more of a cheap-shot than dueling someone, finding an opening, then following through. Your claim that Vader “basically tanked that blast” is laughable. Vader’s armor is specifically insulated against Force lightning, not to mention his Force defenses. The Force lightning rammed directly through both, imbolizing Vader. That’s fair play.
As you yourself have admitted Vader was equal to Starkiller per the text itself.
Which isn’t mutually exclusive with the idea that Starkiller got the upper hand.
Then you have the fact that he tanks a far greater barrage of lightning later from Starkiller for a full 30 seconds.
Note that this doesn’t happen in The Force Unleashed 2 novelization. Regardless, even taken literally, Starkiller would be immensely exhausted when unleashing the barrage, as further articulated below.
Starkiller's exhaustion being doubled as of the second fight matters very little as he is still constantly dwelling on Juno in their second fight which as mentioned basically dismisses the exhaustion as thinking of Juno gives him strength.
In other words, you’re genuinely arguing that Starkiller is immune to fatigue or exhaustion, and can nigh-instantly replenish himself after being “drained of huge amounts of energy” and having to “recuperate for an extended period of time,” i.e. the effects of the Force rage, despite no other character, including Luke Skywalker, remotely showing such an ability.
You're basically assuming that because the text does not go into specifics about the rage amp that it was not there.
It’s reasonable to expect the text to make note of its central protagonist fully embracing the dark side and undergoing dramatic psychological changes at the climax, yes.
Considering Boba Fett kidnapping Juno was enough to send Starkiller into a Force Rage I really don't see how Starkiller wouldn't get a rage amp here.
When? Regardless, I imagine that’s just another incident where you’re falsely attributing a moment of anger to a rare-to-use, highly dangerous and mind-altering dark side technique.
Especially since he was stated to be using all his rage as already mentioned which should realistically mean he was rage amped considering Maul as you posted was rage amped when an overwhelming amount of rage fuelled him.
Darth Maul felt a rage unlike anything he had ever experienced before to the point that he thought he might even be consumed by it, with the text expliciting describing his vast increase in power and his consequent dramatic weakening and exhaustion thereafter. The Force Unleashed II novel spends less than a sentence dwelling on Starkiller’s anger.
The standard requirement for a rage amp is basically an abnormal amount of rage which was shown in the text here.
Just “an abnormal amount of rage?” Again, by that logic, literally any character fighting in a beyond-normal-levels burst of anger is experiencing Force rage. I can pinpoint such a moment in almost any fight involving a Sith. However, here’s an actual description of Force rage: “The character must allow the mindless rage of the Dark Side to possess him.” Are you insinuating that Starkiller completely embraced the dark side for a single strike, then completely rejected the dark side immediately thereafter in a snap? As you failed to address last time, Luke doing an even less extreme version of that in Return of the Jedi is described as ”unprecedented”. That means it’s never been done before - Starkiller included.
Also, re-reading the text, I noticed two other details. Starkiller notes after the attack that Vader’s plan is to “destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.” This indicates Starkiller had yet to immerse himself in the dark side, for he realizes that’s Vader’s end-plan and rallies to make sure that doesn’t matter. Moreover, note that Starkiller associates the plan with “destabilization,” i.e. internal emotional turmoil. Nine times out of ten, a character being destabilized will negatively affect their Force abilities:
“Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult. Obviously, a Force Sensitive broadcasting such emotions puts themselves at risk of not using the Force "properly," since to use it seems to require an inner calm that most meatbags do not possess. As much as the Jedi could not use such a technique, the Sith Lords cannot use it for much the same reasons - such passions as guilt, lust, and fear are rarely strengths to the Sith code." -- HK-47
Guilt: Horror and self-reproach filled his mind. He hadn't seen her crawling for the lightsaber; he hadn't sensed her desperate plan until the very last moment-and it was his alarm that had alerted Vader, he was sure of it.
Fear: Instead, he had thought only of saving Juno-a plan, he feared, that might always have been doomed to failure . . . He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.”
In other words, Vader planned to (and partially succeeded in) destabilize(/izing) Starkiller by stoking emotions of “guilt” and “fear,” both of which would affect Starkiller’s ability to properly use the Force. Further, as shown with Anakin on the Invisible Hand and Mustafar, rage in tandem with these emotions lead to a complete shitshow (going from stomping Dooku to beneath Dooku, going from Sidious-level to stalemating Obi-Wan). Thus, on top of everything else, it’s more-than-likely Starkiller in that specific state was weaker than at any other point.
I’m done here.
Points you have to clarify:
- Why Vader sends the Galen Marek clones at Starkiller if not to exhaust him.
- Why Starkiller thinks Vader would be schlonged by the Galen Marek clones.
- How Vader goes from stalemating Starkiller to ragdolling an empowered Starkiller.
- Why landing a fair shot against a combat-ready opponent is a cheap-shot.
- Why Starkiller was still exhausted after destroying the Salvation despite loving Juno.
- How Starkiller knows a Force technique not known by anyone else in history.
- How any Force technique allows an individual to instantly replenish all lost power.
- How Starkiller can snap in and out of Force rage with zero complications.
- Why Starkiller’s guilt and fear wouldn’t negatively affect his Force powers.
- Why Starkiller using “all his rage” means he was consumed by the dark side.
Or, you realize I’m right, we become friends, and we move on. 🙂
It also depends on whether you want to try to reconcile the novelization and other sources, or just take the former. Given the canon stipulations of my debate with Ant, we would have to reconcile, so I think the evidence clearly points to Vader scaling from Starkiller - but if we just take the novelization, the evidence changes a bit.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It also depends on whether you want to try to reconcile the novelization and other sources, or just take the former. Given the canon stipulations of my debate with Ant, we would have to reconcile, so I think the evidence clearly points to Vader scaling from Starkiller - but if we just take the novelization, the evidence changes a bit.
^ like it's hard to argue that if an unshielded Vader can take an enraged Starkiller channeling his power and then shooting lightning at him with all his might for 30 seconds, and that his apparent defeat is just a part of a test for the dark apprentice, and that he's goading Starkiller into using his hate and anger to strike him down, that RotJ Vader doesn't scale from Starkiller in any way lol.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ like it's hard to argue that if an unshielded Vader can take an enraged Starkiller channeling his power and then shooting lightning at him with all his might for 30 seconds, and that his apparent defeat is just a part of a test for the dark apprentice, and that he's goading Starkiller into using his hate and anger to strike him down, that RotJ Vader doesn't scale from Starkiller in any way lol.
Or, if we just look at every other source, Starkiller doesn't channel his power across thirty-seconds. In the novel, Starkiller just needs a well-placed, concentrated lightning strike. In the DS, Starkiller actually ragdolls Vader into submission. You're just selecting the most favorable source to back Vader, even despite the fact there's no reason to place it above the novel and substantial evidence to the contrary.
If you want to use XBOX, I have no issue using the novel or DS to counter. 👆
"Good."
I don't agree with this either so you know. Moving on.
"The idea that Vader’s “learned from that mistake” is demonstrated through Vader’s actions to weaken Starkiller before fighting him and his subsequent performance against him. Nothing inherently demands nor suggests the quote only works if they’re both fighting at their peak."
The quote is very clearly referring to the combat context, the mental gymnastics you have to perform to assume otherwise are pretty huge to be honest, him having the measure of his apprentice "now" is drawing a clear comparison between their previous fights. And why would it state that Vader had got the measure of his apprentice if he was being beaten by him while exhausted [Combat context as mentioned]. And to answer your question no it doesn't work if Starkiller's not at peak as it's very clearly drawing an analogy between their fight in TFU 1 where Starkiller beat him and their fight in the present where they are equal by why would such comparisons be made if Starkiller was massively above Vader and only being stalemated due to exhaustion unlike in TFU 1 where he was at peak and destroyed Vader, now its suggesting parity though according to you Starkiller is massively above him and Vader was stalemating him because Starkiller was exhausted. How does that work?
"Vader starts by sending all the other Galen Marek clones to attack Starkiller. Note that Vader wants Starkiller alive, so unleashing the clones reveals A.) Vader’s belief that Starkiller can kill the them and B.) Vader plans to weaken, exhaust, and/or injure Starkiller before fighting him; otherwise, there’s no reason to send them after Starkiller. This is exactly what happens, for Starkiller has to unleash almost the totality of his raw power to destroy the cloning facility and the clones, which exhausts Starkiller “to every level of his being.”"
Vader planned to exhaust him, this proves what exactly? And don't you dare say it proves Vader didn't believe he could beat Galan and needed to exhaust him first, that's blatant strawman, if I had the oppertnity to exhaust someone before a fight even if I could beat them on even playing field I would LMFAO.
"Also, note that Starkiller believes the clones could have easily turned and destroyed Vader. Unless Starkiller’s totally deceived by Vader’s power, that’s clear indication that Starkiller’s vastly more powerful than Vader, given Starkiller can destroy all the clones in a single blast whereas Vader would be swiftly annihilated by their combined might."
This argument is not going to convince anyone, Starkiller's opinion is not canon fact.
"You’re ignoring that Starkiller has a period of rest and the opportunity for meditation between his thirteen days of torture and when that statement is made. It’s not that he’s suddenly exhausted, feels love for Juno, and his entire Force reserves abruptly fill up again. That idea, besides just blatantly ridiculous by just thinking about it, is completely contradictory to the lore, actually."
There's a pretty clear disparity between that and this, Starkiller's medative period is assistance yes but you are failing to grasp the point here. Starkiller after some meditation and the mere thought of her replenishes him to normal levels after thirteen days of torture. His exhaustion later wouldn't be negated by the mere thought of her as given he required meditation in addition to that, however this is more than the mere thought of her. She is physically present, his determination and love for her is at an all time high and Vader is the one thing standing between him and her, unlike originally where it was a mere thought of her. His love for her being far more prodominant and as per this quote "The only emotion he would give in to was love" he was totally immersed in it, submerging himself in it which should negate the need for meditation. He's not just thinking about it this time but actively immersing himself in it to stop Vader and save Juno, therefore here he should also be "Stronger than ever". Are you grasping my point?
"Likewise, we have prime Luke Skywalker incapable of instantly replenishing his Force reserves by thinking of Ben and Mara, despite advocating in love as a useful tool to use the light side. This happens midway through the Fate of the Jedi series: He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones. He wondered if the same was true of Abeloth. Rather, Luke seems to believe the only way to cover is substantial food, rest, and meditation. Has Starkiller just discovered a rare Force technique that even Luke had no clue about? Or are you just wildly misconstruct these statements to desperately force the idea that Starkiller’s not weakened down our throats?"
Considering Luke's never been under Galan's exact circumstances this isn't a valid comparison.
"Most importantly, it’s terribly unconvincing that the quote you’re using even refers to Force power rather than Starkiller adjusting from the psychological effects of Vader’s torture and presence and now having newfound determination. It writes about how, “Being in Vader's clutches for what felt like a lifetime,” “He had forgotten what it felt like to be a free agent,” etc. These ideas have absolutely nothing to do with weakening Starkiller. Hell, the text doesn’t make one mention of “Force,” “reserves,” or “energy” throughout the passage. It's speaking to how Starkiller was enslaved and imprisoned by Vader, but now he's outside, free to roam, and in pursuit of finding the women he loves. *That* makes him "feel" stronger than ever."
Maul's rage amp only made him feel like he could accomplish anything therefore it's totally invalid right? It never mentions the force so therefore it must not refer to the force even though it specifically notes him as feeling like he could accomplish anything, in the same way that Galan "Felt he stronger than ever".
"Canon doesn’t agree with me? Canon writes how Starkiller just unleashed all his power twice-over in the span of an hour or less, then proceeds to fight Vader with basically no rest inbetween. You’re the one attempting to counter that by saying feeling love for something immediately overwrites and replenishes all that lost power, which is arguably one of the most outlandish beliefs ever presented in a Star Wars debate, Azronger’s arguments included."
You missed the "Canon" part that says that with meditation and the mere thought of Juno Galan felt stronger than ever and recovered from 13 days of captivity and torture and ignore in this fight that Starkiller was "Going to give into love" and utterly submerge himself which should result in an amp or at least equality and overriding his exhaustion, showing parity to baseline Starkiller.
"Red herring. I never claimed it made Starkiller a superior Force user."
Then what the hell have you been arguing this whole time.
"However, I did mention it for a reason. It’s completely inconsistent to claim that Starkiller and Vader fight as relative equals where Starkiller’s indisputably able to gain an upper hand and defeat Vader to then Vader ragdolling an empowered, enraged Starkiller."
Starkiller was at normal levels both times tbh, or at least that's how I view it, the second time amped by love and the first by rage but only back to normal levels.
"That would mean Vader’s powers fluctuated dramatically in the span of minutes, e.g. an end-all, be-all inconsistency."
If we go by his logic yeah, by mine, no.
"Also, how was it a cheap-shot? Starkiller landed a tactically placed move against an armed and combat-ready Vader. It’s no more of a cheap-shot than dueling someone, finding an opening, then following through. Your claim that Vader “basically tanked that blast” is laughable. Vader’s armor is specifically insulated against Force lightning, not to mention his Force defenses. The Force lightning rammed directly through both, imbolizing Vader. That’s fair play."
Trying to claim Starkiller cheated or something is irrelevant but over the course of the fight the two were equals as per the text itself and this had nothing to do with power or skill and is therefore irrelevant to the debate. Starkiller didn't go against the rules or anything like that but there's a pretty clear difference between demonstrating superiority and this and the mental gymnastics you have to perform to convince yourself they are the same are even bigger than the guy who first made this case claiming base Galan and Vader are equals yet Vader can ragdoll amped Galan.
"Which isn’t mutually exclusive with the idea that Starkiller got the upper hand."
Via something that had nothing to do with power or skill and is therefore irrelevant to the present discussion.
"Note that this doesn’t happen in The Force Unleashed 2 novelization. Regardless, even taken literally, Starkiller would be immensely exhausted when unleashing the barrage, as further articulated below."
See below.
"In other words, you’re genuinely arguing that Starkiller is immune to fatigue or exhaustion, and can nigh-instantly replenish himself after being “drained of huge amounts of energy” and having to “recuperate for an extended period of time,” i.e. the effects of the Force rage, despite no other character, including Luke Skywalker, remotely showing such an ability."
Considering Galan's circumstances being different than Luke's this is a very weak comparison to draw from.
Continued below post 2.
"It’s reasonable to expect the text to make note of its central protagonist fully embracing the dark side and undergoing dramatic psychological changes at the climax, yes."
Do I really have to note the other times where this has happened which were rage amps.
"Darth Maul felt a rage unlike anything he had ever experienced before to the point that he thought he might even be consumed by it, with the text expliciting describing his vast increase in power and his consequent dramatic weakening and exhaustion thereafter. The Force Unleashed II novel spends less than a sentence dwelling on Starkiller’s anger."
So the text doesn't make as big a deal out of it therefore it's non exsistent?
"Just “an abnormal amount of rage?” Again, by that logic, literally any character fighting in a beyond-normal-levels burst of anger is experiencing Force rage. I can pinpoint such a moment in almost any fight involving a Sith. However, here’s an actual description of Force rage: “The character must allow the mindless rage of the Dark Side to possess him.” Are you insinuating that Starkiller completely embraced the dark side for a single strike, then completely rejected the dark side immediately thereafter in a snap? As you failed to address last time, Luke doing an even less extreme version of that in Return of the Jedi is described as ”unprecedented”. That means it’s never been done before - Starkiller included."
I think you'll struggle to find instances similar to attacking with "All of his rage and all of his grief" and absolutely howling with fury in an animalistic manner that very closely resembles allowing the mindless rage of the dark side to posses you in the quote you posted while you attack.
Also, re-reading the text, I noticed two other details. Starkiller notes after the attack that Vader’s plan is to “destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.” This indicates Starkiller had yet to immerse himself in the dark side, for he realizes that’s Vader’s end-plan and rallies to make sure that doesn’t matter. Moreover, note that Starkiller associates the plan with “destabilization,” i.e. internal emotional turmoil. Nine times out of ten, a character being destabilized will negatively affect their Force abilities:
Difference being Vader failed to destabilize Galan who notes that it was his plan not that he suceeded.
Damn I spent way to long on this post lol.