Originally posted by Nephthys
I was only half serious. And only half joking.Thats what I meant. Either way this doesn't negatively impact my argument, just invalidates Axels because haha, Trebor was was one of the best in the Order suck it!
It negatively impacts the part of your argument about the Jedi Council. You can stop trying to lowball the prime of the Jedi at anytime, bro. 👆
No it doesn't since his point was that leading members of the Order can still suck, which would invalidate my point that being a Dark Council member is impressive, to which my response was that only leading Jedi can suck because they're more into wise leaders than strong. By invalidating my point you also invalidate his, meaning that I don't have to justify myself or defend against the Trebor implication. Its very simple really
So thanks for the help bro. I guess you really are objective in these things.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No it doesn't since his point was that leading members of the Order can still suck, which would invalidate my point that being a Dark Council member is impressive, to which my response was that only leading Jedi can suck because they're more into wise leaders than strong. By invalidating my point you also invalidate his, meaning that I don't have to justify myself or defend against the Trebor implication. Its very simple reallySo thanks for the help bro. I guess you really are objective in these things.
Your point was that the Jedi Council can be weaksauce members whereas the members of the Dark Council are harder than you around a copy of The Dark Knight. You were quite wrong. 😬
Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed.But thanks to you it doesn't matter. I'm right by default.
You being right or wrong has nothing to do with me nor am I endorsing Jovan's particular point. (I think it's pretty dumb to assume that members of the leading bodies of the Jedi or Sith orders would not be warriors par excellence.)
You made an erroneous claim about the Jedi Council and I proved you wrong.
Accept your inevitable defeat.
@The_Tempest
Neph is actually correct in his assertions:-
Dark Council is commonly populated by super-strong Sith because weak members don't survive; heck, sometimes super-strong members don't survive. In fact, to secure a seat in the Dark Council is a very difficult task because competition is cut-throat. But even in the Dark Council, different seats represent management of different tasks of the Empire. However, power struggles are natural in Sith doctrines.
Jedi Council operates in different manner; Council members are selected by other Council members and members aren't necessarily super-strong. Their is no cut-throat competition involved which would threaten the survival of a Council member in the Jedi Order.
The source which you cited is contradicted by depictions in GL-Canon.
I've always thought it can't be a coinincidence that the 2 leading members of the Jedi Council are also the 2 most powerful Jedi in the order. So the Council likely would be full of the most powerful Jedi.
The exceptional cases will be unorthodox Jedi like Qui-Gon, Dooku and Skywalker.
And it makes sense. It should be those most powerful in the Force leading the Order because they can see deeper into the force. Naturally those same Jedi will be amongst the most powerful Force wielding warriors as well.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Time to explain a bit about capabilities of HoT (Hero of Tython):"You are immensely powerful." (Sith Emperor to HoT)
Defeated following noteworthy opponents in single combat:
[B]01. Bengel Morr (Corrupted)
A powerful Jedi hero; survivor of Sacking of Coruscant event; defeated the battle-hardened Jedi Master Orgus Din in single combat.
02. Sith Lord Tarnis
Son of powerful Darth Angral; skilled swordsman (trained by the EXPERT swordsman Praven) with decent mastery of the Force.
04. Sith Lord Praven
EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; defeated some of the greatest Jedi duelists in history.
05. Rakata entity (20,000 years old)
06. Darth Angral
One of the Empire's most celebrated warlords; very powerful in the Force; master swordsman; decent tactician; commander of Darth Malgus; slaughtered Orgus Din.
08. Emperor's Wrath
EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; kill record of Sith and Jedi exceeding 1000.
09. Leehan Narez (Fallen)
One of the strongest Jedi of the Order
10. Warren Sedoru (Fallen)
One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; survived many near-death situations
11. Tol Braga (Fallen)
One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; defeated a Dark Councilar in single combat
12. Imperial Guard
Elite warriors
13. Voice of the Emperor
Avatar of the dark side; supremely powerful in the Force
------------
As per SWTORE, HoT handled impossible odds.
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HoT, by virtue of available evidence, is superior to both Dooku and Mace in skill and power. Probably in the league of Luke. [/B]
Furthermore, the Hero defeated Lord Fulminiss, one of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in the Empire, who is said to have once disintegrated an entire city with 'a raging storm of pure Force energy.'
Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore, the Hero defeated Lord Fulminiss, one of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in the Empire, who is said to have once disintegrated an entire city with 'a raging storm of pure Force energy.'
Make a full list of HoT's accomplishments. This will put many arguments to rest.
You also mentioned a (Super) Imperial Guard individual who also have impressive record; put him in the list too.
Time to explain a bit about capabilities of HoT (Hero of Tython):
"You harness immensely power." (Sith Emperor to HoT)
Defeated following noteworthy opponents in single combat:
01. Bengel Morr (Corrupted)
A powerful Jedi hero; survivor of Sacking of Coruscant event; defeated the battle-hardened Jedi Master Orgus Din in single combat.
02. Sith Lord Tarnis
Son of powerful Darth Angral; skilled swordsman (trained by the EXPERT swordsman Praven) with decent mastery of the Force.
03. Lord Sadic
Noted to be highly powerful before he underwent the Power Gaurd programme, which transformed him from a slight man into a hulking cybernetic giant. Said to be the best of Angrals apprentices even before his upgrade.
04. Sith Lord Praven
EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; defeated one of the Jedi's most duelists.
05. The Sand Demon
This thing hunts Krayt Dragons. 😐
Let that set in for a moment. Codex Entry.
06. Lord Nefarid
Its noted that he isn't very powerful in the Force despite the fact that hes pants-shittingly difficult in the game. Still, we see how immensely hard it is to prove yourself worthy of becoming a Sith Lord in the Inquisitor campaign, so he must be pretty good. Also he can become invisible and has a ****ing orbital death laser firing at you throughout the fight, which the Knight dodges several times.
07. Rakata entity (20,000 years old)
I don't remember this but ok.
08. Darth Angral
One of the Empire's most celebrated warlords; very powerful in the Force; master swordsman; decent tactician; commander of Darth Malgus; slaughtered Orgus Din. Lead the Sack of Coruscant, the most significant military attack in Imperial History. This lead to him being offered a place on the Dark Council, but he refused. So even as of Act 1 the Hero defeated a Dark Council-level opponent. After fighting through the Desolator to get to him.
09. Kira Carsen (possessed)
Kira is then possessed by the Emperor and you have to defeat her. While Kira is obviously not as powerful as the Hero, the Emperor is likely the most skilled and knowledgable Force User up to that point in galactic history, plus you'd just fought through a star destroyer and fought a Darth.
10. Pulled down pieces of the ceiling to collapse four tunnels which the Colicoids were using to enter a hospital, despite resistance from several dozen enemies.
.... pretty self-explanatory.
11. Emperor's Wrath
EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; kill record of Sith and Jedi exceeding 1000. Even the Dark Council is afraid of him.
12. Leehan Narez (Fallen)
One of the strongest Jedi of the Order. You have to fight her stupid droids at the same time. She thinks she can make them feel the Force. She is dumb.
13. Warren Sedoru (Fallen)
One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; survived many near-death situations. Satale Shan credits him as the best infiltrator in the Order, as well as some other things which I've forgotten. Is said to have diminished Force Powers, yet still manages to overpower the Force hold the Hero of Tython had on a trooper and toss him aside and mindrape an admiral into revealing the Republic fleets defense codes. Implies that the Emperor boosted his power somehow. Also he's a douche who uses Forcequake. So he's a cheap piece of shit.
14. Guardsman Lassicar
A member of the Imperial Guard who's defeated 'six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords who made the mistake of crossing the Emperor.'
15. Ancient Terentatek
Much bigger than a regular terentatek, this thing was pretty damn big.
16. Lord Fulminiss
One of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in the Empire, who is said to have once disintegrated an entire city with 'a raging storm of pure Force energy.' Was able to drive even Sith Lords and Voss Mystics to gibbering madness and planned to use his power to drive the entire planet Voss insane. Dunno if that makes him a planetary-level Force-User but you have to admit its kind of crazy.
15. The Gormak Guardian
Its ****ing enormous:
The Gormak by its leg is a good 8 feet tall. The Gormak Guardian is telepathic and a manifestation of Sel-Makor, radiating darkside energy and dominating the minds of the Gormak.
16. Blitzed 2 Sith Warriors
For clarity: You come up behind them after they've defeated Jedi Council member Kiwiiks and instead of just killing them from behind the Hero gives them time to react to them by activating their lightsaber, leaping straight over them and then cutting both of them down before they can do anything.
17. Blitzed 2 Sith Warriors (again)
This time they drop down from the ceiling behind the Hero in an ambush yet the Hero is still able to turn around and cut both down with a single slash each.
16. Tol Braga (Fallen)
One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; defeated a Dark Councilor in single combat after several days of fighting. The Hero can also dominate his mind, which is a really damn good feat.
17. Imperial Guard
Elite warriors, 'unmatched in martial skill' and able to contend with Jedi and Sith. The Knight fights through them to get to the Emperor (after already fighting through Kaas City).
13. The Sith Emperor
Avatar of the dark side; supremely powerful in the Force. Fought on a darkside nexus so powerful that conventional weapons don't even work near it.
This is the big one. An amazing feat.
------------
As per SWTORE, HoT handled impossible odds.
------------
HoT, by virtue of available evidence, is superior to both Dooku and Mace in skill and power. Probably in the league of Luke. Nephthys also agrees with this assessment.
1 / 2
Originally posted by Nephthys
If you have anything that can match overwhelming 4 of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy at the same time, easily, then I'd like to see it. Otherwise I consider my argument quite proven.
What is more, this is by no means "a feat to end all FL feats." I find Sidous’s or Marek’s showings to be equally impressive tbh.
However, not to prolong debate on this particular point, I certainly agree that Vitiate’s lighting is stronger than Dooku’s and that is among the most potent FL that we have witnessed in the mythos. … But it won’t be a deal breaker in this fight, as it will be explained below.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean like I have throughout this entire thread? Yeah, I should really get on that.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean, other than the giant temple that Kazdan Paragus was in?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't be retarded.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because he didn't use it in the cutscene fight doesn't mean he can't do it in a fight. How many times am I going to have to point this out to you people: ITS A GAME! THE FIGHT HAPPENS IN GAMEPLAY! YOU DON'T SEE THE WHOLE FIGHT!
So the fight is largely in a gameplay, and we have no way to tell for sure what happens there.
On the other hand, we know for sure what happened in a cutscene , we see what powers and abilities Vitiate displayed there.
So….even though we cannot tell how Vitiate did outside of cutscenes you frivolously assume that he must be doing some uber-a$$ sh1t there, because….you know….why not?
Wow, you “methodology” sucks.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The HoT beat him and he couldn't subdue him because the HoT is better than him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not because his TK only works when hes dying. You ever consider that the HoT, oh I don't know, blocked his TK? I know its a longshot, but give me a little leeway here.
And this:
Originally posted by Nephthys
he did use TK on the HoT, but could do little more than push him/her back.
So what stops Dooku or Windu from blocking Vitiate’s TK, since, you know, they have much better TK feats than HoT.
Originally posted by Nephthys
T3 is still a droid, made out of metal and likely equipped with combat armor. Disintegrating him is more impressive than doing it to a human or unshielded force sensitive.
Still not sure how you make this feat to be so uber, considering that we have witnessed Force users disintegrate a dozen or so technobeasts, numerous storm-troopers (they are in armor! lol), a frigate….
Originally posted by Nephthys
here is absolutely no reason why he can't use his TK in combat. Not one.
But to be honest, I’m willing to concede the point if you provide conclusive evidence that Vitiate did destroy that temple. Good luck.
Originally posted by Nephthys
When Yoda has a lightsaber gash on his side and you're amped it's somewhat pathetic, yes.
But nice that you’ve provided this example.
Dooku has the ability to keep up with Yoda speed-wise. The same Yoda who matched in speed Sidious, who, in turn, blitzed in seconds few of “the Jedi Order’s most celebrated swordsmen” before they could even react.
Now, given that Vitiate has never been portrayed to attain such speed in combat, Dooku will likely run circles around him their duel.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate would have kicked his ass.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say he did.
Originally posted by Nephthys
1) So?
2) Theres no evidence that they were suffering mentally. Revan at least hardly seemed to be affected given that he'd just defeated a superior force using tactics spoken of with awe. He was sound enough to command an entire army after all.
2) So…… according to you Jedi at the verge of falling to the DS are in top mental shape? In that state they are not especially susceptible to tricks that further their fall to the DS? Vitiate’s efforts bolstered by preparation and a DS nexus somehow do not count? This can happen again in the context free of these specific conditions? … Yeah, your point is obsolete.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It failed because Revan had a way of resisting.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You can see from Scourge that the brush of Vitiates mind can be debilitating. Sure its full force would be even moreso. So why is it not even mentioned that Revan was affected in the same way? The most likely and indeed only, reason is that as Revan had previously mentioned he had developed a method of resisting him. We know that this cannot be the attack he used to interrupt Vitiate because a) its an attack, not a method of resistance and b) he teaches it to Meetra and Scourge who cannot use both sides of the Force like Revan can. The simplest and only deduction we can make from this is that Revan was not affected as Scourge was because he was using his own method of resistance. Dooku and Mace do not possess said method. Therefore they will suffer just as Scourge did.
Apparently for you Scourge being terrified of Emperor’s mind domination proves somehow that these feeling will be shared by Scourge’s superiors, Dooku and Windu. Scourge was living a whole life intimidated by Emperor—psychologically conditioned to fear him. Dooku and Windu will not conform to the same reaction in this combat scenario.
2 / 2
Originally posted by Nephthys
Objection! There has been no proof! Nothing has been shown to suggest they can resist it. Either show me something or concede the point.
Given that you agree that Dooku and Windu dominate in sabers, there’s one proof they win right there. The Force contest was also addressed, so I’m not sure why are you acting as if you are blind to it. Maybe out of denial?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Their lightsaber prowess is irrelevent if they cannot close the distance and engage them with their sabers. Which as I'm telling you, they'll get no chance to do.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he'd be trying to stop them from getting to Vitiate. Obviously.
They are his superiors speed-wise and absolutely dominate him in sabers. He has no chances to stall both of them when they mean business. If he tries, Mace BMF Windu slaps him 4 times in the face before he can blink. Just like Mace did to Kar Vastor 😎
Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe if you actually offered an argument against his lightning being the best I wouldn't.
How will he be cut down quickly when Mace is dealing with his lightning?
Originally posted by Nephthys
They defeated a Sith Lord far superior to Dooku for one thing.
Originally posted by Nephthys
They can easily handle Dooku's Force lightning as evidence by their handling of Vitiates superior lightning .
Originally posted by Nephthys
Speedfeats in blitzing Sith (once when they surprised him/her from behind even).
BTW. Details of the fight? How good where said Sith?
Originally posted by Nephthys
No? He's simply become completely nihilistic. Again, watch the actual video. He explains quite clearly that he's just embraced the darkside because he believes that everything deserves to die. Or better yet, just read this codex entry.
This obviously won’t happen when he will face Windu or Dooku, who are faster and more skilled then him and will waste no time to sit down and chat.
Oh, and the link that you’ve provided puts yet one more nail to the coffin where your argument lies:
"Master Braga’s failure to redeem the Emperor broke his spirit. With his pride and faith shattered, he succumbed to nihilistic despair."
Somehow I think the use of a word “despair” does not indicate that Braga was in top mental shape at the time of his clash with HoT. Neither Dooku nor Windu will deal with the same psychological problems here.
In short, you argument concerning HoT has failed thoroughly.
Originally posted by NephthysUrgh, are you really going to ask me to repeat all his freaking feats every post?
As of now I have seen nothing here, or in other threads, that make me believe Braga will be a match for a combatant, say of Maul’s caliber, let alone Dooku or Windu. So much for his “immense powers”
Originally posted by Nephthys
Just look back at everything I've written about him in this thread. Though really I only need one feat. That he could fight for several days indicates immense power reserves. He is obviously no weakling.
Ok, someone has to do it and shatter your childish dream that this feat somehow makes Braga „immensely powerful”
You ostensibly confuse “power feat”, “skill feat” and “persistence feat”.
This feat only indicates that Braga is one persistent motherfvcker, not that his skills with a saber or in the Force are magically on Dooku or Mace’s level.
In fact, it does not say anything about his skillset at all. The only thing you’ve proven is that Braga has met his match in some Sith Lord.
(BTW. How good is said Sith Lord? What Force powers/saber skills he possesses?)
Given that from what we have seen Dooku and Windu are faster, stronger, more skilled in the Force and are Braga’s decisive superiors in saber combat, Braga is nothing special compared to them.
Yes, Braga has good power reserves, but they will hardly come to play when he will be murdered/blitzed by Windu or Dooku.
Originally posted by Nephthys
By contrast the Sith on the Dark Council are the best in the Empire bar the Emperors Wrath and its specifically noted that no weakling is elected. When they are, in the case of Darth Zhorrid, they are eliminated extremely swiftly.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Even you admit that Vitiate is an immensely powerful Sith. That the HoT defeated him proves that they are also immensely powerful.