Post Star Forge Revan & ROTS Obi-Wan vs. ROTS Mace & Kyle Katarn

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Yeah, and I think a Force Push at Kyle will take him out as well.

You mean like it didn't to Anakin? Kyle is stronger in the Force by a league.

In the game, Stun is lightside power and Revan, as we know, is canocally a lightsider.

It doesn't matter. Canonically a Lightsider or not, it doesn't mean he knows all Lighhtside powers within the game. He's never depicted in a cutscene or stated by a narrator to know Stun nor Force Valor, so he doesn't "canonically" have them at all. That's what we call gameplay.

WTF, the Rakatans are not stupid. They'll probably have written records. And they are not primitive if they made the Star Forge

If I may:

prim¡Ei¡Etive  /ˈprɪmɪtɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prim-i-tiv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
¡Vadjective
1. being the first or earliest of the kind or in existence, esp. in an early age of the world: primitive forms of life.
2. early in the history of the world or of humankind.
3. characteristic of early ages or of an early state of human development: primitive toolmaking.
4. Anthropology. of or pertaining to a preliterate or tribal people having cultural or physical similarities with their early ancestors: no longer in technical use.
5. unaffected or little affected by civilizing influences; uncivilized; savage: primitive passions.
6. being in its earliest period; early: the primitive phase of the history of a town.
7. old-fashioned: primitive ideas and habits.
8. simple; unsophisticated: a primitive farm implement.
9. crude; unrefined: primitive living conditions.
10. Linguistics.
a. of or pertaining to a form from which a word or other linguistic form is derived; not derivative; original or radical.
b. of or pertaining to a protolanguage.
c. of or pertaining to a linguistic prime.
11. primary, as distinguished from secondary.
12. Biology.
a. rudimentary; primordial.
b. noting species, varieties, etc., only slightly evolved from early antecedent types.
c. of early formation and temporary, as a part that subsequently disappears.

They are, indeed, a primitive race. And they, indeed, haven't seen magic in a millenia, unless you prove they've seen powers like Force lightning before, then they really aren't qualified.

In the game, Valor is a lightside power and Revan, as we know, is canocally a lightsider.

Quoting myself here:

Originally posted by Advent
It doesn't matter. Canonically a Lightsider or not, it doesn't mean he knows all Lighhtside powers within the game. He's never depicted in a cutscene or stated by a narrator to know Stun nor Force Valor, so he doesn't "canonically" have them at all. That's what we call gameplay.

And did I ever say Kyle is going to lose against Kenobi. No, I am saying Kenobi is going to survive long enough for Revan to come to his rescue.

Either way, that's ridiculous to assume Revan can beat Mace faster than Kyle beats Obi-Wan. If you've just read what I read, it's obvious that Obi-Wan would not last that long. And in terms of Force power, Obi-Wan is lacking. Which lead to his defeat by Dooku in ROTS. Kyle, however, is not.

Bring it on!!! I'll be calling my lawyer!

You'll have the papers on your desk by Friday.

Lmao. Again: It requires some considerable amount of power to use the SF but it's never said that it does give power to anybody.

That would be incorrect. Malak stated that Revan was 'stupid' for not realizing the true power of the star forge'. It strengthened the said force user's abilities in the force, so long as they do not die in the process (much of what happened to the Sith Masters according to Bastilla's holocron)

Unsupported assumptions much ? Mace was the second most powerful Jedi in the PT order and aside of this a lightsaber prodigy.

If Mace was as powerful as you give him credit for, then why did he not just reflect the lightning back at Sidious? Considering Revan's feats with force lightning was described as being far greater, Mace is out of luck. He could BARELY hold back Sidious' lightning, explain how he would not be fried by Revans?

In the same manner I could ask you what Revan would do against a force crush coming from Mace. Drop down dead ?

Excuse me, but you seem to forget the only opponent Mace has demonstrated a successful crush against was Grievous. That's right, a machine that could not even defend himself against the force, wait a go Windu 🙄

And it doesn't resemble a force storm unless Revan did "ravage space-time itself" - not that this couldn't be anything that the premitive people there possibly spotted (starship turbolaser fire and so on). The only thing that is said is that Revan did "call lightning from the sky" that did "kill one of their scouting parties".

I told you that it was a toned down version of Sidious' force storm; wait a go Nai, putting words in my mouth. Again, it was not like Sidious' lightning, because it did not come from Revan's fingertips period It came from the sky. Again argue with Bioware if you have a problem with Revan using something greater than force lightning. 🙄

And is it "pull numbers out of my ass" day? Where the hell does it state he killed one scouting party. Reading comprehension much?

Sidious before ROTJ fried an battalion of Stormtroopers with force lightning. So what ?

Force lightning still, nothing much. Revan's was described as being so great that it was described as arching from the sky (which was impossible given that the Rakatan technology did not permit any starships to work in it's atmosphere)

Read Shatterpoint. And Revan doesn't have Echani precognition - his Jedi precognition is just superior to the Echani precog. Of course you can argue that Mace doesn't have Jedi precognition but I would call that stupid. And Mace does have his shatterpoint ability...

Spitting at facts. Revan does have echani precognition, indicated in conversation with Jedi Handmaiden. It was described as a technique that was rarely possessed. It was also described as allowing someone to perceive the attacks of someone before they made it.

More unsupported assumptions please. Dooku took Obi-Wan down because Dooku was the superior force user. Want to compare Obi-Wan "almost singled out from the order because of a lack of force potential" Kenobi to Kyle "force and lightsaber prodigy equipped with some part of the power of the Valley of the Jedi" Katarn now who was able to take down an entire Imperial Base without using his force powers between MotS and JK II ? Nice try.

LOL, you clearly were not reading any of my posts properly. I said that Obi Wan would prolong the duel, not that he would win. Argue that a Soresu master of that calibur fully focused on defense would not strategically be able to prolong a duel. Please.

Proof to me that Revan has superior lightning (compared to Sidious) or superior precognition (compared to Mace). You can't, you lose.

Lets see, the lightning that he used was described of greater magnitude than Sidious'. These are the same Rakatan witnesses who have seen lightning before, (from the ancients who retained their technology), and as such remain valid witnesses.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Lets see, the lightning that he used was described of greater magnitude than Sidious'. These are the same Rakatan witnesses who have seen lightning before, (from the ancients who retained their technology), and as such remain valid witnesses.

Quote, and source.

'And they, indeed, haven't seen magic in a millenia, unless you prove they've seen powers like Force lightning before, then they really aren't qualified.'

Well they did go to war with the anicent sith - Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties (intro - http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=323861&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=69).

This is why we can't use KoToR+ Revan, his Powers are Unknown, his Canon Lightside Ending is only used for the Star Wars RP, since this has no effect on the Movies. Neither side can prove their point

On the Force Storm issue, the Knights of the Old Republic-era Force Storms were highly inferior to Palpatine's. A potent Force Storm from Revan's era could only kill multiple enemies (whereas Sidious was capable of emitting your standard Force lightning to obliterate multiple foes), whereas Palpatine's Force Storm could obliterate massive fleets.

So, Sidious's Force Storm > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revan's. And this is being generous.

On the issue of the Star Forge:

a. Has it ever occured to you that Malak was simply referring to the tactical and military might of the Star Forge? Given Revan's tactical genius, Malak could be meaning that Revan would have been invincible if it were in his hands - as a potent starfleet factor.

b. You have yet to show a single case where Malak was empowered by the Star Forge. And, considering how he was forced to drain the energies of the individuals in stasis - it leads me to believe otherwise.

'On the Force Storm issue, the Knights of the Old Republic-era Force Storms were highly inferior to Palpatine's.'

It's not so much that they were inferior, they were just different attacks, period. At least that's the impression I got.

'Has it ever occurred to you that Malak was simply referring to the tactical and military might of the Star Forge? Given Revan's tactical genius, Malak could be meaning that Revan would have been invincible if it were in his hands - as a potent starfleet factor.'

It's been a while since I've played KotOR, so I may be a bit rusty on the plotline, but IIRC Revan could already control the SF in that way (mass produce ships) before when he was DL, and Malak states that if he had learnt to fully control the SF, perhaps he would have become invincible implying that it was an aspect of the SF that Revan hadn't discovered as DL, meaning that it can't have been that aspect of the SF - Malak also states that the true power of the SF was to use the SF to make him stronger IIRC.

'You have yet to show a single case where Malak was empowered by the Star Forge. And, considering how he was forced to drain the energies of the individuals in stasis - it leads me to believe otherwise.'

If you mean that the SF was making him weaker so he was forced to drain the life of the jedi to stay alive (at least that's what I think you mean), I'm pretty sure that he drained the jedi not because he needed to, but so as to make him stronger as Revan was proving to be too difficult an opponent.

When did Revan get this Force Storm because the last time I checked, lightsiders don't use force lightning. And just because you can pick force storm as a power in KOTOR, it doesn't mean Revan could use it.

People are actually arguing that he might have known it before KotOR when he was DL, and seeing as this is post KotOR, he would surely regain it once he regained his memories.

However it's more likely that he just used telekenesis to pull lightning out of the sky, like Kyp Durron did in Leviathan.

Well the force storm is actually regular force lightning just with more bolts, and it arches over.I don't get where some of you are getting "summoning it from the sky" stuff. If you notice in KOTOR, there's no sky to summon from the sky on Mannan without killing yourself or even getting it through the building. Unless you're telling me lightning can travel through non-conductors.

Originally posted by zephiel7
That would be incorrect. Malak stated that Revan was 'stupid' for not realizing the true power of the star forge'. It strengthened the said force user's abilities in the force, so long as they do not die in the process (much of what happened to the Sith Masters according to Bastilla's holocron)

He was talking about the production of starships which is clearly the case given that he talks about "effiency" of the Star Forge before. There is not a single line in KotoR saying that the SF boosts up somebodies force powers.

If Mace was as powerful as you give him credit for, then why did he not just reflect the lightning back at Sidious? Considering Revan's feats with force lightning was described as being far greater, Mace is out of luck. He could BARELY hold back Sidious' lightning, explain how he would not be fried by Revans?

First: What makes you think Mace couldn't have done this with his bare hands ? Dooku could do this as we have seen in AotC.

Second: The ability that Revan used (if he did so) was the "force storm" of the KotoR era which is actually insignificant to the power of Sidious force lightning - much more to Sidious force storm.

Three: For this stuff making sense you would have to assume that Revan > Sidious in terms of Dark Side force powers. How many sources do you want that crush this little premise ?

Excuse me, but you seem to forget the only opponent Mace has demonstrated a successful crush against was Grievous. That's right, a machine that could not even defend himself against the force, wait a go Windu 🙄

The same way Revan only demonstrated his uber powerful "force storm" against people who couldn't defend themselves against it, due to the fact that they weren't able to use the force any longer. Somebody pwned his own argument...

I told you that it was a toned down version of Sidious' force storm; wait a go Nai, putting words in my mouth. Again, it was not like Sidious' lightning, because it did not come from Revan's fingertips period It came from the sky. Again argue with Bioware if you have a problem with Revan using something greater than force lightning. 🙄

You mean like the lightning that Kyp Durron called fromt he sky in the "Leviathan" comics using some weather manipulation ? Wow...
And it's not a "toned down version of Sidious' force storm" it's an extend of the "force lightning" ability and has precisely nothing in common with Sidious force storms.

And I don't have to argue with Bioware because this is how their own game mechanics work. Force storm = higher level force lightning. And sorry: It comes from the users hands (at least in the animation), goes up and then hits the targets on the ground.

And is it "pull numbers out of my ass" day? Where the hell does it state he killed one scouting party. Reading comprehension much?

Reading comprehension ? Obviously lack of logic on your side. Why would multiple scouting parties move together so that Revan can own them all at once. Oh my...that's what scouting parties usually don't do.

Force lightning still, nothing much. Revan's was described as being so great that it was described as arching from the sky (which was impossible given that the Rakatan technology did not permit any starships to work in it's atmosphere)

See above.

Spitting at facts. Revan does have echani precognition, indicated in conversation with Jedi Handmaiden. It was described as a technique that was rarely possessed. It was also described as allowing someone to perceive the attacks of someone before they made it.

I guess the Jedi Exile possessed it too because being able to tool the Handmaiden and her sisters...
Jedi Precognition > Echani precognition. Just look at the fact that Kreia did forsee things happening 4,000 years later. So what need would Revan have to use echani precog if he has Jedi precog and how is this gonna help him against somebody who has precognition as well ? Logic anybody ?

LOL, you clearly were not reading any of my posts properly. I said that Obi Wan would prolong the duel, not that he would win. Argue that a Soresu master of that calibur fully focused on defense would not strategically be able to prolong a duel. Please.

I guess you didn't again get the point, huh ? Dooku was superior in the force, hence able to choke Kenobi and then toss him through the room, taking him out of the fight. What would stop Kyle or Mace from doing the same (or use a force push / other force skills) against Kenobi. Hence his "prolonging the fight with Soresu" attempts will be quite mood if he ends up in the next wall force pushed, chocked or something else by his opponent.

Lets see, the lightning that he used was described of greater magnitude than Sidious'. These are the same Rakatan witnesses who have seen lightning before, (from the ancients who retained their technology), and as such remain valid witnesses.

Let's see: You are making stuff up to back up your attempts to construct an argument failing utterly because you obviously know jack shit about the things you want to discuss. And I doubt that the Rakatan that did encounter Revan did personally witness fights happening 3,000 years in the past...

'He was talking about the production of starships which is clearly the case given that he talks about "effiency" of the Star Forge before. There is not a single line in KotoR saying that the SF boosts up somebodies force powers.'

This is clearly not the case as Revan already had discovered this function when he was previously DL, and Malak is clearly talking about something that Revan never discovered as DL. It wasn't the starsip production.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
This is clearly not the case as Revan already had discovered this function when he was previously DL, and Malak is clearly talking about something that Revan never discovered as DL. It wasn't the starsip production.

Oh my...
Malak stated that he is operating the SF more efficient than Revan. What do they do with the SF ? What is the only thing they do with the SF ? Producing starships

And obviously he can't compare himself to Revan when he was refering to something that Revan never did or - even less - when talking about force powers.

So what ? He was talking about his ability to produce ship with the Star Forge who did exceed that what Revan did with the SF. And that's it...

I'm not sure if I'm too tired or something, but I don't really get your point.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
I'm not sure if I'm too tired or something, but I don't really get your point.

The entire point is that Revan only used the SF to produce ships for his military actions against the Republic. So obviously, when Malak said that Revan would have become invincible if he had figured out how to use the entire power of the SF - he was talking about the fact that with more ships (a greater fleet) the Republic wouldn't have had any chance to stop Revan.

Notice how Revan and the officer are talking about the production abilities of the SF before.

So pleeeeeaaaaseee tell me why Malak should suddenly talk about Revan using the SF to boost his force powers (something that the SF can't even do - it's a damn production facility powered by the Dark Side) considering that:

1) Revan did next to nothing with his actual force powers.
2) They were talking about ship production before.
3) He was comparing himself to Revan which would make no sense if he was talking about something Revan never did with the SF.

So what ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
The entire point is that Revan only used the SF to produce ships for his military actions against the Republic. So obviously, when Malak said that Revan would have become invincible if he had figured out how to use the entire power of the SF - he was talking about the fact that with more ships (a greater fleet) the Republic wouldn't have had any chance to stop Revan.

Notice how Revan and the officer are talking about the production abilities of the SF before.

So pleeeeeaaaaseee tell me why Malak should suddenly talk about Revan using the SF to boost his force powers (something that the SF can't even do - it's a damn production facility powered by the Dark Side) considering that:

1) Revan did next to nothing with his actual force powers.
2) They were talking about ship production before.
3) He was comparing himself to Revan which would make no sense if he was talking about something Revan never did with the SF.

So what ?

Wait a second. Why would Malak tell Revan that he would be invincible in terms of having a fleet? Wouldn't that make Malak also invincible, except that he wasn't? What would Revan do that would make him invincible, that Malak wouldn't do, considering they're talking about the SF producing the fleet(your words)? It seems like Malak is pointing to the fact that with the dark side power of the SF, Revan would be invincible.

'The entire point is that Revan only used the SF to produce ships for his military actions against the Republic. So obviously, when Malak said that Revan would have become invincible if he had figured out how to use the entire power of the SF - he was talking about the fact that with more ships (a greater fleet) the Republic wouldn't have had any chance to stop Revan.'

Well you see, Malak states that if perhaps Revan had learnt not the entire power but the true power of the SF, - a different function all together.

I guess you didn't again get the point, huh ? Dooku was superior in the force, hence able to choke Kenobi and then toss him through the room, taking him out of the fight. What would stop Kyle or Mace from doing the same (or use a force push / other force skills) against Kenobi. Hence his "prolonging the fight with Soresu" attempts will be quite mood if he ends up in the next wall force pushed, chocked or something else by his opponent

The setting is a flat hard surface. And even if there were walls that would sandwhich Obi-Wan Kenobi like in ROTS, what would stop Revan from lifting it up? Let me guess what you're going to say, he's too immersed in his duel with Kyle or Mace. Whatever.

Next, how long will it take Revan to kill Mace?
Probably 4 minutes.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
The setting is a flat hard surface. And even if there were walls that would sandwhich Obi-Wan Kenobi like in ROTS, what would stop Revan from lifting it up?

What would it even matter? Kenobi would be unconscious. He's never been known for having great Force usage. In terms of Force power, Kyle > Obi-Wan. The same thing happened with Dooku and Obi-Wan. Dooku is quite simply just better in terms of Force knowledge and mastery, hence he was able to remove Kenobi from the duel with ease. And do tell, how can Revan be lifting up things. . .

Let me guess what you're going to say, he's too immersed in his duel with Kyle or Mace. Whatever.

. . .when he's busy dealing with Mace? First off, if Revan tried to "lift up" anything (not that'd it help, because he'd already be down) he'd have to break concentration. And there's no way in hell Kenobi is going to last that long when he was tooled by a superior Force user so easily.

Secondly, Kenobi only clashed sabers with Dooku for a solid 20 seconds at most (some nanoseconds, I'm sure, lol) before getting tooled. First, he was Force pushed in battle at the 18 second mark. And took out some droids, etc., etc. and when he engaged Dooku the second time - he only brought down one swing (two seconds), and was then lifted into the air and simply owned.

Kyle is definitely the superior lightsaber user, and he's the superior Force user. So, what're trying to say? If you have doubts of Kyle abilities, read my quotes.

And for anyone who wants to bring in "l0l ob1 was us1n6 at4ru" from the novel - true, he was using Ataru for a bit until he switched to Soresu to trick Dooku, much like Anakin had. But again, that was only in the very beginning. Not like it matters because he was curbstomped by the Force.

As for your actual response, I'll have to say: "yes".

Next, how long will it take Revan to kill Mace?
Probably 4 minutes.

I object on grounds of simply "bullshit". Four minutes my ass. For either victor in the case of Mace v. Revan, it'll take awhile.

What you say might be right, but I think you're underestimating Obi-Wan Kenobi. I think he'll last at least 2 minutes against whoever. But then again, that's my theory.