Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Also I wonder why none of you complaining about Superman not having super speed vs Hulk on the other thread.That is even worse! Super speed is a power that Superman displays EVERY TIME not only when he reaches critical mass or stops holding back, but no one complained about this..
I wonder why...
And as for your intimation that Superman would otherwise have prevailed, well, a non-capped Hulk (like in the comics) would just turn Superman to dust by kicking up the power output.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What? You aren't making sense.Hulk didn't go all out and unleash his full strength because he was holding back (As explained). It's a different way of phrasing the same mechanism.
Both characters are using their full potential with out tapping into external sources of energy
Originally posted by ODG
It's pretty clear what happened in this thread. A Doomsday supporter used your ruling to argue that WWH has a cap to his strength. Because he is not allowed to go Worldbreaker. The Hulk fan ended up backhandedly conceding this point but rubbed it in that Hulk was being neutered with this limitation since it does not exist in the comics.Then you, the mod, ended up contradicting him and flatly stating WWH was not being neutered. But he is being neutered (for the purposes of discussion). You shouldn't have to defend your rulings incessantly. And in a perfect world, you never should at all. But saying stuff like that, even in an offhand manner, makes your mod ruling look misinformed -- as if you thought there were some comics-driven reason behind delineating between WWH and WBH. Which is why you've got several posters lecturing you about storyline details and acting like you haven't read the comics.
There is no reason in the comics to think that WWH can't go WBH when he needs or wants to. There is a reason in these forums to act that way though. That's the end of the story. No?
...That isn't what I asked. Not being snippy, I honestly was just asking what people actually want me to do.
I honestly don't believe he's being neutered. I get that people won't agree or will say I'm flat out wrong, but I really don't know how anything I said is supposed to contradict or overrule a mod ruling.
And just to be clear, it isn't MY ruling. It was something that Bada and I worked on, and it was something WE both agreed on. We've both spoken about WHY the ruling was made ie to keep debates easier.
Just because I happen to also believe that they are actually separate doesn't invalidate the mod ruling that doesn't actually have that as a condition.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
it's not a big deal, just stop being illogical is all
You're welcome to think it's illogical; I really don't mind.
The ruling was agreed upon months ago. It won't change unless some new evidence comes to light.
Originally posted by janus77
Pr, not being funny but there is a big (well, as far as comic book forums go) distinction to be made here.Calling a character WWH != saying that character is Green Scar during the period of WWH.
Giving WWH all of Green Scar's feats during that period != being Green Scar during that period.
Green Scar was holding back (to staggering levels), during the whole arc, so in a VS fight, you would be perfectly fine to say "he'll just kick it up a notch".
"WWH" (as defined by KMC VS) just doesn't have that "notch" to kick it up to, he is neither as soft and gentle as the Green Scar that fought Caeira nor as powerful as the one that almost destroyed the Earth with a casual footstep.
He is, to all intents and purposes, a separate character from Hulk (though he is based on a set of Hulk's exploits).
That's the difference.
What are you actually getting at?
Originally posted by -Pr-
Just because I happen to also believe that they are actually separate doesn't invalidate the mod ruling that doesn't actually have that as a condition.
They aren't separate. They are literally the exact same being. World Breaker Hulk is World War Hulk, except angrier. He can go from Banner to World Breaker or from Banner to World War Hulk to World Breaker at the drop of a hat. It depends entirely on how much he is holding back.
I'm curious, what gave you the impression that they were separate? It doesn't make much sense to me personally.
Originally posted by janus77
Maybe because it was a thread titled "[b]Hulk vs superman(no super speed)" - you make the thread, you set your criteria (however unfair).And as for your intimation that Superman would otherwise have prevailed, well, a non-capped Hulk (like in the comics) would just turn Superman to dust by kicking up the power output. [/B]
There was another thread where it was tittled Doomsday vs HOTM Hulk.
This one as unfair as it might seem is called Doomsday vs WWH and OP states:
Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Title pretty much says it all. Most powerful version of canon Doomsday vs World War Hulk. Fight to the death. Who wins?
He is reffering to a particular HULK used in one arc.
Otherwise He can go and make a thread called HP Doomsday vs FULL POTENTIAL HULK, OR Hp Doomsday vs WBH.
And set his stipulations.
As much as I believe is dumb to have stips like this, because when in the world a character is going to fight in a world made of indestructible adamantuim is the way it has been in KMC for quite a long time.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
They aren't separate. They are literally the exact same being. World Breaker Hulk is World War Hulk, except angrier. He can go from Banner to World Breaker or from Banner to World War Hulk to World Breaker at the drop of a hat. It depends entirely on how much he is holding back.I'm curious, what gave you the impression that they were separate? It doesn't make much sense to me personally.
At the time of reading it, I honestly felt like Banner wasn't able to reach that highs until the end of WWH. Up until then, I feel like he was operating at a level that was closer to Savage Hulk, and that was sort of the tipping point for him with the whole footsteps thing.
Let me say, though, that isn't why the ruling was made. It was made because people were going in to threads that were designed to have the Hulk operating at the level that he was during the arc and saying "He goes WBH/HOTM and wins" which is ultimately pointless and makes threads redundant.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
..................So you're repeating literally exactly what I said?
I feel like you didn't understand what I meant in my post.
No I got it perfectly, Hulk goes critical mass and reaches "WB MODE" in which he has two gears, holding back and non holding back.
Superman drops his mental block and his thumb cracks imperex armor he kicks it up a notch and starts one shoting Imperex probes.
I got it perfectly, none of them are tapping into external sources of power and can go either WB MODE or No mental block any time they want.
Originally posted by Rao Kal Elyou should maybe sit this one out
Also I wonder why none of you complaining about Superman not having super speed vs Hulk on the other thread.That is even worse! Super speed is a power that Superman displays EVERY TIME not only when he reaches critical mass or stops holding back, but no one complained about this..
I wonder why...
Originally posted by -Pr-Don't worry about what people want you to do. As all this discussion surrounding the mod ruling only occurs when there are statements floating about that can be misconstrued as misinformation.
...That isn't what I asked. Not being snippy, I honestly was just asking what people actually want me to do.
Originally posted by -Pr-See this. This is not how I would suggest going about it. Stop saying he isn't being neutered. Because the character is, based on the comics. At the very least, even if you personally don't believe so, you can't deny there isn't a damn good argument to that effect. But clearly, discussion about the mod ruling isn't helping this thread or others.
I honestly don't believe he's being neutered. I get that people won't agree or will say I'm flat out wrong, but I really don't know how anything I said is supposed to contradict or overrule a mod ruling.
Originally posted by -Pr-Keeping debates easier is a fine reason and you don't need any reason more. But suggesting there isn't an overt, forum-motivated reason behind it -- which is how people interpret you're "he's not being neutered" comments -- is sending the wrong message.
And just to be clear, it isn't MY ruling. It was something that Bada and I worked on, and it was something WE both agreed on. We've both spoken about WHY the ruling was made ie to keep debates easier.
Originally posted by -Pr-If you are going to participate in that sort of discussion, but suggest that any counter-point discussion is violating a mod ruling, then you're only going to invite these sorts of problems. Because whether or not you realize it, you're making it seem like you're hiding your personal opinion behind a mod ruling you instituted.
Just because I happen to also believe that they are actually separate doesn't invalidate the mod ruling that doesn't actually have that as a condition.
In the end, the following advice will sound patronistic, and I'm honestly not trying to make it like that, but: if you don't want others to question the reasoning behind the mod ruling, then you need to stop talking about your reasoning behind the mod ruling.
Just let it lie.
Originally posted by ODG
Don't worry about what people want you to do. As all this discussion surrounding the mod ruling only occurs when there are statements floating about that can be misconstrued as misinformation. See this. This is not how I would suggest going about it. Stop saying he isn't being neutered. Because the character is, based on the comics. At the very least, even if you personally don't believe so, you can't deny there isn't a damn good argument to that effect. But clearly, discussion about the mod ruling isn't helping this thread or others. Keeping debates easier is a fine reason and you don't need any reason more. But suggesting there isn't an overt, forum-motivated reason behind it -- which is how people interpret you're "he's not being neutered" comments -- is sending the wrong message. If you are going to participate in that sort of discussion, but suggest that any counter-point discussion is violating a mod ruling, then you're only going to invite these sorts of problems. Because whether or not you realize it, you're making it seem like you're hiding your personal opinion behind a mod ruling you instituted.In the end, the following advice will sound patronistic, and I'm honestly not trying to make it like that, but: if you don't want others to question the reasoning behind the mod ruling, then you need to stop talking about your reasoning behind the mod ruling.
Just let it lie.
I'm not the one inviting these conversations. You think I WANT to come on here and answer every post asking the same questions that were asked months ago?
Me having a personal opinion is separate from mod rulings. Bada is the same, and that's how it's been since we became mods.
If people would stop asking me about it, then I wouldn't answer.
Originally posted by -Pr-
What are you actually getting at?
If you literally limited it to the Hulk [Green Scar] - "as he was" - during that period, you would have WBH on your hands, because that's who Green Scar is.
Whereas "WWH" the KMC Vs character has the feats Green Scar did during WWH, but not the potential, not the latent powers, not the level of holding back that Green Scar was doing.
You need to accept that "World Breaker" IS who Green Scar has been since on Sakaar. It's just that he's always been holding back, as stated in WWH and as demonstrated by the contrast when he finally stopped holding back in HOTM.
Once you accept that, I think you'll see where the confusion stems from.
It's perfectly fine to have a limited Hulk, to facilitate debate, but it's asking for trouble when you say that this limited Hulk IS the Hulk as depicted in the comics he is named after, because the comics disagree with you and we can all read.
Originally posted by janus77
Honestly? I'm just wondering how you don't get that, in the process of "limiting" Hulk down to the feats of WWH, you have created a parallel character to the Hulk of WWH (Green Scar).If you literally limited it to the Hulk [Green Scar] - "as he was" - during that period, you would have WBH on your hands, because that's who Green Scar is.
Whereas "WWH" the KMC Vs character has the feats Green Scar did during WWH, but not the potential, not the latent powers, not the level of holding back that Green Scar was doing.
You need to accept that "World Breaker" IS who Green Scar has been since on Sakaar. It's just that he's always been holding back, as stated in WWH and as demonstrated by the contrast when he finally stopped holding back in HOTM.
Once you accept that, I think you'll see where the confusion stems from.
It's perfectly fine to have a limited Hulk, to facilitate debate, but it's asking for trouble when you say that this limited Hulk IS the Hulk as depicted in the comics he is named after, because the comics disagree with you and we can all read.
I think there's a power disparity, which I'm free to think even if you guys say/think that I'm wrong, and honestly, I'm fine with that. I do get where you're coming from, as I have from the start; I just don't agree.
It doesn't factor in to the mod ruling though, which I've already stated here, and in previous threads.
Originally posted by -Pr-There is no discussion about mod rulings.
I'm not the one inviting these conversations. You think I WANT to come on here and answer every post asking the same questions that were asked months ago?Me having a personal opinion is separate from mod rulings. Bada is the same, and that's how it's been since we became mods.
If people would stop asking me about it, then I wouldn't answer.
They're done and set in stone.
But, frankly, it was really your statement about your personal opinion concerning the mod ruling (which we agree can stand independent of the ruling) that really started the backlash. I'm not suggesting anything new. If you don't want people challenging the mod ruling with their personal opinions, then that applies to you too. Obviously, you didn't challenge the mod ruling with your personal opinions, but you started to rationalize it with your personal opinions.
Which isn't any better... because the end effect is the same: it invites discussion about mod rulings. And that shouldn't happen.
Originally posted by ODG
There is no discussion about mod rulings.They're done and set in stone.
But, frankly, it was really your statement about your personal opinion concerning the mod ruling (which we agree can stand independent of the ruling) that really started the backlash. I'm not suggesting anything new. If you don't want people challenging the mod ruling with their personal opinions, then that applies to you too. Obviously, you didn't challenge the mod ruling with your personal opinions, but you started to rationalize it with your personal opinions.
Which isn't any better... because the end effect is the same: it invites discussion about mod rulings. And that shouldn't happen.
Where did I rationalise the mod ruling with my own opinion?
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElActually, WWH has at least three gears: (i) normal WWH who isn't glowing with energy and is obviously holding back; (ii) Worldbreaker who is glowing energy and threatening continental damage with mere footsteps but is still holding back; and (iii) Worldbreaker who is glowing energy and destroying planets with collateral damage and isn't holding back. That last one, was only ever seen at the very end of Heart of the Monster.
No I got it perfectly, Hulk goes critical mass and reaches "WB MODE" in which he has two gears, holding back and non holding back.Superman drops his mental block and his thumb cracks imperex armor he kicks it up a notch and starts one shoting Imperex probes.
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElThe point he is trying to get across to you, is that there is no forum rule that stops Superman in a thread from going all out without a mental block. You are allowed to discuss that possibility -- especially in threads where Kal is pitted against a foe who is extremely powerful. But for WWH, there is a forum rule that prevents WWH from going all out without a mental block and bars such discussion. Indeed, there is a forum rule that prevents him from accessing a level of power where he is still actually holding back: (ii) holding back Worldbreaker.
I got it perfectly, none of them are tapping into external sources of power and can go either WB MODE or No mental block any time they want.
This is an obvious fact that no longer needs to be belabored by any of us.
Originally posted by ODG
The point he is trying to get across to you, is that there is no forum rule that stops Superman in a thread from going all out without a mental block. You are allowed to discuss that possibility -- especially in threads where Kal is pitted against a foe who is extremely powerful. But for WWH, there is a forum rule that prevents WWH from going all out without a mental block and bars such discussion. Indeed, there is a forum rule that prevents him from accessing a level of power where he is still actually holding back: (ii) holding back Worldbreaker.This is an obvious fact that no longer needs to be belabored by any of us.
If a rule of that sort was needed for Superman, there would be one. Thankfully, there's pretty much only one person on the board that tries to pull that shit, and I spend enough time as it is telling him to shut up.
Not to mention the power disparity between both characters.
Originally posted by -Pr-I already pointed this out before: when you said that WWH isn't being neutered. Several pages ago and since. That was your personal opinion. It stands separate and apart from your mod ruling. But it provoked a discussion from people who disagreed with your personal opinion, and ended up misconstruing it with as if it were a statement about the mod ruling. But they shouldn't be blamed for that.
Where did I rationalise the mod ruling with my own opinion?
It was miscommunication. But in the future, personal opinions rationalizing mod rulings are just as likely to provoke discussions about mod rulings as are personal opinions challenging mod rulings. Neither should be happening.
Originally posted by -Pr-👆
If a rule of that sort was needed for Superman, there would be one. Thankfully, there's pretty much only one person on the board that tries to pull that shit, and I spend enough time as it is telling him to shut up.Not to mention the power disparity between both characters.