This is the net, I am all for debate. But to debate religion is not a smart ifdea. Especialy via the web. Unless you grow up in that persons shoes, your since of prospective would be off. In war, there is no right on wrong. Just war. No matter who you kill or not kill. That is up to those that fight. But to fight when we suppose to enjoy the movie. No.
Time and Place.
This is not it.
Now if you want to compare the matrix against whats going on. You can. That would make Neo a pal and the machine isreal.
__________________ Life is a tale, told by an idiot. Full sound and fury, signifying nothing. I am gone if you want to contact me, [email protected]
Well, since Jesus=Neo, the Israel thing DOES have merit...
And Jedi, please do tell of the overwhelming compenation given to the indians...
Could we "compensate" the jews for Israel, instead of giving it "back" to them?
__________________ The System is everywhere. It is all around us. Even
now in this very room. You can see it when you look out your
window. Or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when
you go to work. When you go to Church. When you pay your taxes.
It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you
from the truth.
UROT- I held back and thought about what I was going to say. And all you did was contradict yourself.
First you wrote:
Then you claim: :
??? Try reading your own posts.
Now, if the first quote was misinterpreted, I could understand your second post. But then, you go and support Red Texas “100%” when he makes statements that “Israel is "fighting back" it's own fault, the evil IT created…They roll over houses, kill children, and steal land, what do they expect?…”
Red Texas -> This is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
The current area of Israel and Palestine was created by the UN (that’s the US, Britain, China, France, Russia, and the rest of the world) after much strife between the two sides between WWI and WWII. Both a Palestinian state and Jewish state were created. At the time it was created there were both Jews and Palestinians living in the area, as there had been for thousands of years. Both populations were free to stay where they lived, or move to their own designated state. The included a division of Jerusalem, much like Berlin was divided between East and West Germany. I am not going to tell you that Israel had no idea this was happening or any input into its creation. Of course they did, but so did Palestine, and all the other Arab countries. Instead of agreeing to some division, the Arab League took the position that no Israel state is allowed to exist. TO THIS DAY, MOST OF THE MIDDLE EAST REFUSES TO CONCEDE THAT ISRAEL HAS EVEN A RIGHT TO EXIST. THEIR MAPS DO NOT EVEN SHOW THE EXISTENCE OF ISRAEL.
A map of the division is here: Here is a map of the area: h t t p://domino.un.o r g /maps/m0082.gif again, this was created by the UN, not Israel, not the US not Britian.
Now, you can argue about little skirmishes, who is right who is wrong, who started it, whether it was the work of extremists, etc.
But, as soon as Israel declared its independence it was attacked. It was attacked by almost EVERY Arab Nation. In a combined attack, the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq invaded Israel. This is known as the Arab Invasion of 1948. At one point Israel was cut off from Jerusalum. The road was eventually opened when arms from Czechoslovakia (YES, Czechoslovakia) were received.
What did the leaders of these nations say about the Israel independence? The Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha declared "jihad", a holy war. He said, "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades". The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini stated, "I declare a holy war, my Moslem brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!"
Are you going to tell me this was Israel’s fault?
Since that time, there has been a constant battle back and forth. One side attacks, one side counter attacks. Some of them have been classified as wars, some are skirmishes, some are just suicide bombs. These changed the borders of all the countries in the area.
Israel repeatedly offered to make peace with its neighboring countries. Finally, in 1978 Egypt took a chance. The Camp David Peace Accord was signed in 1979 and there has been peace between the two countries ever since that time. Both countries have lived up to their promises. Almost 20 years later, Jordan came around. The Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty was signed in 1994 and there has been peace between these two countries.
In 1993 the government of Israel, under Mr. Rabin, signed an agreement with the leader of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as a result, a part of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were given to the the Palestinian Authority. A year later a peace agreement was signed between Israel and Jordan. Israeli military presence in Lebanon, which started in June 1982 came to a complete end in 2000, returning the border line of 1923 to its old recognized and mutually accepted status.
During Desert Storm in 1991, Israel was the only country in the area that did NOT participate in the war. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Omar, Iran, etc. all sided with the allies. Yet, Israel was the only country attack by Iraq.
In the last several year the Palestinians have used more and more suicide bombers. Mainly, they attack civilians. Hamas and other groups declare responsibility for these. Israel’s army in some cases attacks. But, they attack military and terrorist targets. Do some civilians get caught in the cross fire? Yes, but they are not the intended target, as opposed to the suicide bombers who go into a café, disco or on a bus.
If his is happening in your neighborhood, what would you do? Sit back and let it happen, or put up road blocks? Check cars, check people, go after known terrorists, etc. The latest round of attacks were instituted by Hamas after they agreed to a cease fire. Hamas did not blame it on new aggressions by Israel, they stated it was for past aggressions before the cease fire was signed. So, Hamas says, sure lets have a cease fire. Oh, wait, we still need to blow up a few people, so boom, this one is for something prior to the cease fire, now don’t attack us.
Neither side is 100% right. In fact, there are probably serious problems with both. However, Israel has shown a willingness to create peace (Egypt & Jordan) if the other side is willing. They have given back land won in wars. They have kept their promises of peace to Egypt and Jordan.
But, despite a peace agreement and the giving back of land, all they have received from the Palestinians are more suicide bombs. More attacks and more problems. What should you do when you are being attacked by your neighbor? Nothing? Or put up a defense?
This is not an "Evil" that Israel created.
__________________ The past is over. The future a lump of clay. Get dirty and mold it.
If we are going to continue this conversation, this thread should be renamed and moved to the Off Topic Forum (leaving the posts in place).
This is a Matrix Forum and it should stay that way.
Now as far as our ideas not changing, I think we do agree on this.
Under God every man, women, and child should be treated with respect.
As I said before, we are all of one blood. We need to focus on what we all have in common, not the things that separate us.
I think we all need to walk through the door.
__________________
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.
HAL: I honestly think you ought to calm down; take a stress pill and think things over.
__________________
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.
Urot> I’m not saying I can agree with the Israeli governments’ treatment of the Palestinians either (Heck, choosing the “Butcher of Lebanon” as president wasn’t a wise move). But there are Israeli citizens who wants peace as much as the Palestinians.
First of all Israel MUST act on the 100+ UN resolutions against it and withdraw from the occupied territories. WHEN that happens, I think there is some hope. Until then...
But please don’t generalise too much. I, for example, don’t agree with what the Bush-administration is up to, but that doesn’t mean I think every American is crazy.
About God: The one making an assertion carries the burden of proof btw.
JediHDM> The native American Indians have been compensated?? Why then do some still live in reservations in poverty?? It is their land, as much as Palestine belongs to the Israelis. You can’t say one deserves an area of origin more than another. I, too, would very much like to hear of the compensation.
Tshirt> You are correct. The UN did back the creation of Israel in 1947. Small wonder, considering the horrors of WWII.
But the creation of Israel goes back to before ’47. The British government had promised Zionist leaders that it would allocate one of the Arab lands, Palestine, to Jewish settlers from Europe, to keep better control over the Suez channel. Abba Eban himself has explained that “We would help Britain become the ruling power and Britain would help us to develop the Jewish National Home.” So Jewish settlers, among things, volunteers worked with Britain to put down a Plaestinian Arab revolt, the most serious rebellion to face the British Empire in the 1930s. This entire era is a total political double-dealing mess.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
I HOPE YOU'RE KIDDING. I don't consider a war, and "voluntary" racist occupation "peaceful"
You've been read too many Israeli history books. The fact is, those people were DRIVEN from their land.
Think of it this way, bro. Picture this: You're black in the 60's, now, officially, you can VOLUNTARILY leave AN alabama white neighborhood, yes, but you and I knowq, there's not much choice in that...
I'm going to pretend you just didn't rationalize the berlin wall, in Israel, or germany...
You're correct, because in the eyes of that land's rightful people, ISRAEL DOESN'T have a right to exist. The invaders must be pushed back, not handed your capital. War requires war-like attitudes, not hollow peace.
Here you're assuming the UN is/was a fair, balanced non-imperialist organization.
A leap of faith, to say the least.
This wasn't a skirmish, this was an INVASION.
Yes, Israel was attacked, because Israel had no right to exist. They had no right to invade that land, and the Arabs had every right to crush and destroy the Zionist menace.
All you're proving to me is that religion is stupid. I happen to agree.
If you're going the road of the common rightist fool, and connect that quote with the defenders of Palestine's revolution, let me tell you I'm not a typical liberal. I won't roll over for that argument, I won't back away.
Fallacies don't work for me, brother.
Yes.
The war continues, the revolution lives on.
There can be no peace, all "peace treaties" made between Israel and Palestine are but pieces of paper signed by a puppet and a master.
There can be no peace in Palestine, just as there could have been no peace when the Germans were outside Moscow in ww2.
There will be only one winner, here.
Again, no big deal, one of the arab countries dropped the fight. Italy in ww1 comes to mind. There are essentially 3 sides in this war:
The revolution/war will continue as long as one of those two last ones exists, I promise you.
Under whose control are those areas now? I rest my case.
Where is the PA now? beneath the rubble created by Israeli bombs.
OK, I'm getting tired of this history lesson...
Damn those Palestinians for not having US supplied smart bombs!!! Damn them!
Your logic seems to imply that, to make this right, the US should give billions to Palestine TOO... not a bad idea.
If a clan of Natives were tro come to my neighborhood, and claim my house as historically theres, throw me out, shoot my brother, kill my cat, and then send me to the crackhouse down the street "voluntarily," then block me from getting to my mom's crackhouse across the way using roadblocks, you'd bet I'd be pissed, pissed enough to do some damage to chief runningfoot for stealin' my stuff.
I was waiting for the apologism, I found it...
"giving" back land. Again, back to MY example, the crackhouse ain't gonna cut it. I want MY house back!
You've yet to show that.
__________________ The System is everywhere. It is all around us. Even
now in this very room. You can see it when you look out your
window. Or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when
you go to work. When you go to Church. When you pay your taxes.
It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you
from the truth.
They are not all crazy tiz true. My main target in all of my posts were zelots. It doesn't matter if they are Religious Right Winged Conservatives, Zionist, or any other group pushing for their ideas in a hostile way.
I also have stated in my posts that every man, woman, and child should be treated with respect under God. The Zionist movement dosent represent that type of philosophy. The extreme Zionist feel that Palestinians are nothing more than Nazi propaganda junkies.
Think back to the 2000 UN conference on racism in Durban, South Africa.
Isreal and the United Stated didn't want to hear from the U.N. about the atrocities towards the Palestinians from the Israelis. So what did they do? They walked out.
The original draft resolution to the UN conference stated its “deep concern” at the “increase of racist practices of Zionism and anti-Semitism” and spoke of the emergence of “movements based on racism and discriminatory ideas, in particular the Zionist movement, which is based on racial superiority.” It made direct criticisms of Israeli repression against the Palestinians on the West Bank as a “new kind of apartheid, a crime against humanity.”
The US and Israel insisted on the removal of any direct reference to Israel. Prior to the walkout, the two delegations had been offered the prospect of a compromise resolution, drawn up by Finland and South Africa in consultation with the Arab states. Having toned down any specific criticisms of Israel, press reports indicated that the new version had even been pronounced acceptable to Washington by US Congressman Tom Lantos, who was part of the delegation. But events proved that there was no intention to compromise by the US and Israel.
Discrediting the Durban conference was a top priority for the Zionist regime and its US backers because it was seen as an arena through which the Palestinians could score a propaganda coup, when everything else was going against them.
Shimon Samuels, the head of the Jewish caucus in Durban, declared, “We saw an NGO (Non-Governmental Organization) document that would have made (Hitler’s Nazi Party propaganda chief) Goebbels happy. And now it is clear that we are going to see, at the end of the government conference, resolutions that can be called the UN’s Mein Kampf.”
Mordechai Yedid, Israel’s official spokesman at the conference, insisted there could be no condemnation of Israel in the resolution. He told the plenary meeting prior to the US-Israeli departure, “anti-Zionism, the denial of Jews the basic right to a home, is nothing but anti-Semitism, pure and simple.” Yedid derided the Arab regimes proposals to criticize Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians as “a group of states for whom the terms ‘racism’, ‘discrimination’, and even ‘human rights’ simply do not appear in their domestic lexicon”. The UN resolution, he continued, was “the most racist declaration in a major international organization since World War Two”.
His remarks prompted a walkout by Egypt’s Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher, who represents one of the most pro-US of all the Arab states.
Announcing its withdrawal from the conference, US Secretary of State Colin Powell denounced any attempt to single out “only one country in the world, Israel, for censure and abuse’” and any suggestion that apartheid existed in Israel. For his part, then Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres proclaimed, “We were portrayed in an insulting and baseless manner as a colonial nation... The Arab League, all of it, has come out against peace.”
The right-wing media in Israel marched to the same tune. An article in the September 4 Jerusalem Post by Yossi Olmert described the Durban conference as “the mirror image of the Nuremberg rallies, in which the Nazis propagated their anti-Jewish messages, striving hard to delegitimise the Jews, as an inevitable step leading to their eventual liquidation.” He conceded reluctantly that “not all the participants in Durban are Nazis, maybe not even a majority of them, but too many are, and they clearly give this shameful gathering its true character”.
As I said before The israelis are always painted as the victims, when in most cases that is far from the truth.
I agree with that statement.
Again as I have stated before I can't prove or disprove the existence of God thats why I live my life as an Agnostic.
__________________
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.
Last edited by -=Urot=- on Sep 24th, 2003 at 01:51 AM
I am against the war in the Middle East (that includes W's Crusade), I for one believe in one thing, that there is no religion and no belief only illusions to shiled people from reality, if people woke up people would be at peace and we would'nt have racial or religion discrimination, and our civilization can move on. That is my view anyway.
__________________
Check out my fic "The Warrior to Unite"
True world peace is something I would love to see in my lifetime.
__________________
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.
KMC Community Forums
Sep 23rd, 2003 05:05 PM
its HAL! with the ominous stare
