although spidey has had his powers to aid him in fighting throughout the years......i still believe that one who engages in combat so often throughout such a long amount of time develops fighting skill seperate from their acquired powers......spidey's powers help.....but what about those villians who match him in speed,strength, and other categories? they test his fighting ability everytime they go up against him. I'm sure by now he's developed at least a rough set of skills he uses that is seperate from his powers....
i'd have no problem believing spidey would lose to someone with slightly inferior physical stats but a load of MA knowledge.........heck, that's just like fighting in the real world. if you know what you're doing and the other guy doesn't........it may not matter that they're a little bigger,stronger, faster, etc
Either not full match (i.e. strong but slower) or...dumber and losing via plot devices.
Spidey's rogue gallery isn't good proof of his combat skills...though there are some obscure people like Black Tarantula who can be the perfect test subjects for that situation.
Then I can understand your reasoning. The very thing there is that Nighter has actual superhuman stats AND combat training (was elite mercenary even before getting powers) and no way should he be treated as a Daredevil\Batman type.
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Depends on the level of stats and training really. A low level superhuman wouldn't make a difference. Another Spiderman with much higher training would. What better combat training is there than experience itself though?
I have to disagree, ofcourse he relies on his powers (why wouldn't he?) but he's definitely not a nobody, years of fighting experience would do that even if he suddenly loses his powers he'd be pretty strong, fast and agile and there are examples of that happening.
Azula: My mommy didn't love me so I'm going to burn down your village.
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You might want to look up the definition of skill then. And honestly how many characters rely on their powers? Wolverine does also. They did a "What if" about what Spiderman would be if he didn't hold back and he was a monster as well.
Also I agree extra training would benefit him, but he isn't a nobody without it, he's had his powers removed and was able to survive supervillians.
Basically the problem is that many posters on the forum are thinking about him using human abilities, which are much less useful for him. His style is unorthodox and goes with his power sets. He getting training would help his style of thinking, nothing more. What would he start doing? Normal Earth based moves where he stands still and does one hit a a time? Which is harder to defend? That or a person doing something unorthodox that is hard to defend against.
Take it from an actual MA with really good experience AND really high physical ability. And I'm not talking about these people who all think they know something because they watch UFC.
But since you guys love UFC as an example. Why did Brazilian Jiu Jitsu become so popular and effective? Pop quiz.
It was because the styles that fighters were using on this side of the globe were mainly boxing and poking tactics with no defense against ground and grapple based moves. When BJJ came about it was new and unorthodox and people didn't know how to defend against it, hence it was so powerful. Now everybody knows it and it is effective (but somewhat overrated). Would a guy with only BJJ knowledge stomp in MMA now? Hell no, he would be crushed by other competitiors.
But we must also look at stat gap, you can put me against a 12 year old 3rd degree black belt and he would get stomped (they are out there). My physical ability is much higher, much higher than an averge man's and much more a small kid. Hence why I train everything. It is all one pool really.
If they are evenly attributed and one has more physical training, that person will often do better.
If they are evenly s killed and one has higher stats, the other one will more often do better.
If one is a little more skilled, and the other is quite higher physically, the latter will still win because physical ability is always there. It isn't something you turn off. A "skilled" person still makes mistakes and are open to different things, hell the most skilled fighter can be beaten by an average Joe at the bar if he's hit the right way.
Now Parker with no powers isn't going to take on Batman, of course not, but he could take on an average or well trained man with no powers, I believe that. Even without his super powers he would still be more physically advantaged than most could hope to achieve that are normal humans, and he is still more dangerous with his powers and without that (what if) training, than he would be with the training and no powers.
Props to SK
Last edited by Tha C-Master on Dec 16th, 2009 at 01:57 PM
My defense of Pete revolved around the idea that MNer's abilities and the way they work can't account for what amounts to the precognition that is Pete's SS. His computational brand of fighting can't account for someone who can literally know what you'll do before you do it. That, and his physical stats don't match up to Pete, since the SS would negate most of the skill edge.
Minus SS, MNer pwns of course. But that's not in the spirit of the original thread.
I'm gonna need to see some MN feats, to agree with this, because right now I peg him around Cap level.
The comics I have read of Midnighter, he usually takes down mooks and canon fodder.. In their first issues, he did take down some super humans that were flying through buildings and such, which could be impressive, except the super humans turned to clay against other heroes and even bullets..
You mentioned Trial by Fire? Is that an Authority story? Image or Wildstorm?
I can't find it through a Google search. All I keep getting is either the Kyle Rayner story, or webpages about Christianity..
True sometimes but not always. This would be his best method of victory, but you're shortchanging MNer. I give Spidey maybe 8-9/10 with SS, 2-3/10 without. He takes a lot of hits sans SS.
The Authority have a great respect thread, including a robust section on MNer. There's more than enough contained there to get a rough idea of his abilities. He's > Cap though. WS occasionally has the problem that no one knows their villains, and the Authority usually kills its villains, so we don't have a frame of reference for power levels sometimes. But he's still done way more than trash mooks.
And yes, as Bentley mentioned, he hurt a legit low herald Superman clone with a precise strike to his ears. One of his highest showings.