The format for responding to quotes here on KMC is new to me, despite the length of time I've been registered.
My only real postings on these particular forums have come in respect threads where there's relatively little back-and-forth exchange.
If I make mistakes, please bear with me.
Who?
You need to back this up.
I've SHOWN Superman and Wonder Woman visually fighting in the Sun's corona.
Wonder Woman #219, which is where this fight takes place, makes no mention of Venus.
It shows, on the contrary, about 5 MORE panels of sun-surface action.
I maintain that's where they were and the artwork and action backs me up.
Give something substantive if you're going to say otherwise.
Let's assume you're right and that this WOULD be "a hell of a jobbing on Superman's part".
Are you saying then that Superman never "jobs", therefore this could not be the case?
Does that really seem a convincing point to you?
Darkseid got blasted with his own Omega Beams right in the face prior to that trip to the sun.
Until that point he was roughing Clark quite well, physically.
Not quite the case afterwards, was it?
Guess who did the deflection of those beams, by the way?
But certainly going to the sun amped him enough to punk Darkseid after that point.
That's part of the logic of GOING to the sun to begin with.
Right?
Last edited by bluewaterrider on Apr 1st, 2012 at 09:03 AM
I want to make clearer what I mean. Information doesn't exist in a vacuum. Typically, it isn't interpreted in a vacuum, either. Rather, what surrounds it tends to influence what people get from it. I'm thinking it is the job of editorial to evaluate what impression people come away feeling after reading or viewing a work, and to dictate changes where necessary. To edit, in other words. Perhaps that idea is mistaken and that ISN'T what editorial actually does. I honestly don't know.
It does seem DC strives NOT to allow the last impression to be character-celebration where Diana is concerned, however.
This is a nebulous concept to express; let me just go to visual, making an analogy in terms you can understand. Let's take our hard-punching friend, Bronze Age Superman as he has a dispute with a strange green-hooded gent ...
Bronze Age, pre-Crisis on Infinite Earth Superman was one of the strongest Superheroes of all time. At 2/3 rds power, for instance, he could literally move the entirety of planet Earth with a good hard shove.
In fact, a check of one of the pre-Crisis Kryptonian respect threads will actually SHOW him doing so!
It goes without saying that he could bring a mountain down with a single hard punch. Easy to see why young kids the world over love this guy.
Certainly I was one of them.
And yet ... is that the foremost impression one would come away with from this? His first punch seems about as effective as a man would be hitting an elephant with rolled up newspaper. Spectre seems hardly to notice it.
Superman's second punch is therefore on another order of magnitude.
Ground, hills, air, all shake with so much reverb aftershock that a moat or crater is left around Spectre. But Spectre himself?
Still blithely floating there, seemingly wondering why Superman doesn't give up on force and try something else.
Note: The punch itself, in fair objective terms, is quite respectable.
It is the FOLLOW-UP, the latter following or editing that discounts what preceded.
I get what you're saying, and I see your point, I guess I just don't feel like Wonder Woman is singled out any more than, say... J'onn, for instance.
I don't think it's a case of making Superman look good to make Diana look bad; just a case of them wanting to make Superman look good because, well, he's Superman.
The one we actually got in the books? Not so much.
I like several versions of pantsed Wonder Woman outfits I've been seeing for the past year or so, though, even to the advertisement for "Drawing the Line" featured as the visual of this particular post.
Getting habituated to this board's word and image processing protocol is some undertaking.
Don't know how I managed to get section-quoting right the FIRST time I tried it ...
Ah well, back to business -- I originally promised to give some visual attention to the fights the original poster mentioned are absent from either respect thread ... ?
I'll start with the disclaimer that these should be thought of as snapshots, especially given that I've discovered I CAN'T perfectly predict the order imagery will appear in when I post several messages in a relatively short time span on KMC, even when I want to. Something happened to mess me up when I posted my very first thread (pre-Crisis Supergirl respect), something happened when I tried my 2nd, something happened when I tried a few days ago just to present shots of the Amazo fight. Oddly enough, the distortion is, or was, affected by whether I view this thread as a logged out "guest" to the forum, or whether I choose to log in and be the registered "bluewater__". In one case I got 2 scans of the same scene, one out of order. In the other I got the proper sequence of events.
Whatever. Not a concern here, anyway. Snapshots these are, then, they can all be verified by checking the actual comic or comics, which I'll give reference information to at the end of each series, and wherever I've made any changes to suit the family atmosphere of this forum, like editing out bad language, violence unsuitable for children, etcetera, I'll make note of that, too.
that picture isn't by rags morales ; that's ivan reis.
honestly, yeah, i guess i can see why you feel the way you do. Wonder Woman's costume isn't exactly screaming "strong, independent woman". TBH, as a man, i guess I just appreciate that when a good artist draws her in that costume, she looks hot, so there is that part of it, and sadly, sex sells.
i'm not saying it's right, though. far from it.
I just hope that, even when a writer does have to deal with her in that costume, he writes a wonder woman who doesn't care about the costume she wears; she lets her actions and her personality show us why she's considered such a strong woman.
that whole "not giving a ****" attitude.
though given what her creator thought of her, i'm not sure he really saw her as a role model for young girls.
So, Sacrifice, as a great number of people are probably already familiar, is, arguably, THE penultimate battle between Wonder Woman and Superman of the past 10 years.
The premise is that Justice League associate Max Lord somehow gains near complete mental control over the Man of Steel after years of practice. How, I don't know. Before this story I don't recall so much as one mention that he had mental powers of that sort; I'd be surprised if any author before "Sacrifice" did, either.
No matter. Control he does gain, and, in Lord's convoluted frame of mind, this is proof that Superheroes in general present a clear and present danger that must be eliminated. For it establishes that the mightiest among them can be controlled like so many chess pieces by evil men. Like, for example, Max with Superman.
Diana tries to reason with Max. It doesn't work. He tries to control HER. Doesn't work. Diana tells him it's because she sees with a god's eyes, so she's not vulnerable to that type of illusion.
Okay, then. Max makes Superman see Diana as Doomsday. Convincingly. Then, even more convincingly, he makes "Doomsday" murder Superman's beloved wife, Lois Lane, in plain view.
And laugh about it.
In the span of a few seconds, then, Diana finds herself being simultaneously choked, depressurized, and burned alive as Superman acts with incredibly swift resolve to murder Doomsday by throttling him to death and perhaps even laser Doomsday's face in two, as he throws the monster into the sun. Still reeling from the suddenness and violence of it all, Diana manages to stop the assault by putting her fingers into Superman's still burning eyes. It buys her a moment to compose herself and instantly realize what was in the lead-shielded box Bruce (Batman) gave her in the previous chapter. Kryptonite. Bruce's green kryptonite ring. Unfortunately, by this time she and Kal are literally dancing on the sun's surface, which, if this issue has ANY respect for Superman history and continuity, is strengthening him beyond ordinary bounds. Superman hits Wonder Woman with such a haymaker that it blasts her all the way back to planet Earth, where she hits with such force that it creates an impact crater. Fortunately, Diana is blessed, if not with Kryptonian level durability, god-granted resistance to traumatic injury and quick recovery ability. She recovers her senses and realizes what she must do ...
Compared to the comic, a panel is missing between this scene and the previous one. That scene is one that establishes Diana needs no sword to cut Superman, severely. It convincingly demonstrates to Max, in fact, if not to Superman fans, that Diana could have killed Superman at almost anytime back on Earth -- IF that was her goal. And, presumably, that, at that point, Max would have no pawn to protect himself from her justifiable rage over being forced to kill her friend.
So, Max agrees.
In the comic, Max says "Fine -- ", followed by more dialogue on the following page. I let this end with an ellipse and exclamation because I originally had this prepared for another forum where "Fair Use" was even wiser to adhere to (stricter scan per comic limits).
And I wanted a sense of completion to the selection free of the most jarring of the violence featured in the magazine. Note that, because selections are posted as thumbnails for all registered users on KMC, it would be utterly useless for me to provide a warning against viewing the material displayed, albeit smaller than standard size, only an inch or so below.
In the actual comic, though, Superman is in this pose because he's trying to stem the damage from a severe cut to the throat, trying to give his enhanced healing power opportunity to sustain him the next few moments.
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Apr 1st, 2012 08:53 AM
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; that's ivan reis.
