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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » Revan vs The Hero of Tython


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Revan vs The Hero of Tython
Started by: Nephthys

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Stealth Moose
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I always thought Post-DE Luke was ridiculous for body leaping and having an Imperial Guard to cow his Dark Council. And that whole thing with sapping a planet lifeless? Shame!


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Old Post Nov 17th, 2013 05:55 AM
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KillaKassara
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I always thought Post-DE Luke was ridiculous for body leaping and having an Imperial Guard to cow his Dark Council. And that whole thing with sapping a planet lifeless? Shame!


Exactly. Ex ****in actly.

Just because this unnamed character beat Vitiate, doesn't mean he's anything. As Luke beat DE Sidious, Meetra beat Nihilus.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
That's the reason Neph is vexxing me, she only gives a shit about her hard on for an unnamed character who has very vague and unquantifiable feats and victories. Actually no feats as the only text written about demonstrations power that exist for the character, outside of the N canon sequence in game-play, are in SWTOR: Encyclopedia - which doesn't give enough to go off of.

Yea, a gifted Jedi kills a lot of Temple Guards and goes on to defeat The Emperor as his plans crumble around him. Sounds a lot like Luke from DE - who got stomped by Exar Kun's spirit.


^For when she logs back in to endlessly wank a Jedi Master from SWTOR.


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Old Post Nov 17th, 2013 06:01 AM
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Stealth Moose
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I was actually pointing out that DE Luke is nothing like Vitiate, so the comparison was invalid.


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Old Post Nov 17th, 2013 06:07 AM
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KillaKassara
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I was actually pointing out that DE Luke is nothing like Vitiate, so the comparison was invalid.
Except, DE Luke lost to Sidious in a lightsaber duel when Leia was not present. Except, DE Sidious was far more powerful than DE Luke in every capacity, especially since he was in a perfected clone of his younger self, no amount of skill can make up for having fraction the speed and strength of your opponent. DE clearly demonstrates, from their first duel, that Sidious was better than Luke.

Same goes for Vitiate>Hero.

It's a fact, Luke did surpass Sidious in NJO - I'll give you that. But someone who is disarmed by a young, barely trained Kyp Dorrun with the Force alone, and who has his soul ripped out by Exar Kun's 5,000 year old spirit, is not more powerful than Sidious.

The relevant point I'm making in this thread for Revan is that Hero has no feat that outmatches all of Revan's, and that the Hero defeated a weakened Vitiate, not the one Revan faced.

YOU'RE trying to get me to separate warrior classes from mage classes like this is an RPG and as if SW discriminates one as being more suited for combat than another, when really the mage is just a more powerful warrior class in the hierarchy of this mythos. YOU'RE also trying to get me to separate canons and eras and accept concepts like PIS and CIS to keep your sanity. I won't do that.


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"Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"

Last edited by KillaKassara on Nov 17th, 2013 at 08:16 AM

Old Post Nov 17th, 2013 08:09 AM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
That doesn't really count as a Force Storm, but whatever. Who knows, maybe he did use that attack during the fight. Or perhaps the Hero of Tython just wasn't dumb enough to let him charge up his best attack like Revan was.

This is what Vitiate unleashed on Revan when became serious:

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor's attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him.


Just imagine the level of power that Vitiate unleashed in this case.

Against HoT, Vitiate was not able to expand much:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/_...e_lightning.png

I do believe that the power shown in the link above would have been absolutely lethal and that it would require an individual of HoT's caliber to withstand it, but it seems like as if Vitiate was on a different page against Revan in comparison.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Laugh my freaking ass off!

No, he wasn't. He'd already tried to absorb all the galaxy and failed.

"You’ve learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all."

He's weakened because he'd already tried to perform that ritual and it didn't work. But he was recovering after that. All throughout the invasion of Dromund Kaas and the attack on the Dark Temple the Emperor was recovering his strength.

The ritual failed due to actions of Scourge and Revan. Scourge was privy to immense level of useful information about Vitiate and he helped the Jedi Order to undermine ultimate plans of the Sith Emperor.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
He was also amped by the Dark Temple so it evens out.

We don't know this. Things are not so black and white.

Maybe Vitiate was not in the position to fight at all at that time and was able to in a powerful nexus.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
After which she also receives training on Vitiates fortress for a lengthy period of time.

Valid point. I think that HoT had developed/acquired some remarkable talents in the long run.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof that Vitiate had no whites? I've never seen that.

Vitiate didn't had human eyes. He had void like eyes.

He was born naturally attuned with the dark side; not neutral like almost everybody else.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge and Satele say that being in the Emperor's presence would be too much for anyone except the HoT to handle.

Even weakened the Emperor would stomp anyone other than the HoT.

This is correct.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Exactly my point, if Vitiate was so weak (According to the dullard's posting) then how come Revan couldn't take him? Revan's power increased within the 300 year gap between "Revan" and "SW:TOR" and according to everyone, Vitiate was weakened immensely, so why couldn't Revan take him? And my answer to that is... Because he wasn't strong enough, he was too weak to defeat Vitiate on his own, something HoT had no trouble doing.

Vitiate significantly expanded his personal powerbase after his second confrontation with Revan by creating Voices and Children.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Nov 17th, 2013 at 11:57 AM

Old Post Nov 17th, 2013 11:50 AM
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Stealth Moose
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Registered: Apr 2011
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
Except, DE Luke lost to Sidious in a lightsaber duel when Leia was not present. Except, DE Sidious was far more powerful than DE Luke in every capacity, especially since he was in a perfected clone of his younger self, no amount of skill can make up for having fraction the speed and strength of your opponent. DE clearly demonstrates, from their first duel, that Sidious was better than Luke.

Same goes for Vitiate>Hero.

It's a fact, Luke did surpass Sidious in NJO - I'll give you that. But someone who is disarmed by a young, barely trained Kyp Dorrun with the Force alone, and who has his soul ripped out by Exar Kun's 5,000 year old spirit, is not more powerful than Sidious.

The relevant point I'm making in this thread for Revan is that Hero has no feat that outmatches all of Revan's, and that the Hero defeated a weakened Vitiate, not the one Revan faced.

YOU'RE trying to get me to separate warrior classes from mage classes like this is an RPG and as if SW discriminates one as being more suited for combat than another, when really the mage is just a more powerful warrior class in the hierarchy of this mythos. YOU'RE also trying to get me to separate canons and eras and accept concepts like PIS and CIS to keep your sanity. I won't do that.


1. I'm not making any CRPG distinctions. This is some kind of unique strawmanning here.


2. The comparison is invalid because Luke as of fighting Exar Kun's spirit was not the same as Vitiate; specifically, he was not a thousand year old Force oddity who had been immersed in Dark Side techniques and sapped the collective strengths of millions and was capable of Grand Theft Me's. I'm fairly certain that if Kun's spirit tried anything on Vitiate, he's get donkey stomped. Freedan Nadd's spirit was arguably stronger in the Force than some PT Jedi, healing fatal injuries and attacking Jedi masters solely using the Force - both feats done across lightyears. When Kun got his amulets, Nadd was vanquished.

So if you intend to argue the comparison, you have to use something called context.


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Old Post Nov 17th, 2013 04:30 PM
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Nai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hmm, I don't think this is true. According to this:

"For centuries, the Emperor's Voice has delivered the Sith leader's commandments to his servants. In fact, to converse with the Emperor's Voice is to have an audience with the Emperor himself, whose power and consciousness have been placed within the Voice's body."

And SWTORE says the same thing. So by all rights, Vitiates power is held within his Voice when he is occupying it. He isn't splitting it between the two bodies.


"The Voice is the conduit for the Emperor's words." - Servant Two.

"The Emperor is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delives his orders.[...]To guard against further vunerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspire against him. Centuries later [after his confrontation with Revan], this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.

As Vitiate apparently retains a part of his power in his original body (otherwise the Voice wouldn't make much sense at all), there is some seperation of power between the Voice and Vitiate's original body. Which is only logical, as a body without Force energy is, pretty much, dead, as we all know from the KotoR-2-experience.

quote:

Not true, Vitiate doesn't grant power to the Emperor's Wrath (that is, the Sith Warrior class). As for Scourge, his martial ability was boosted by the Emperor, but I highly doubt its something that requires a constant portion of Vitiates power, rather than improving him with sorcery in some way. Like for instance how Talzin improved Savage Opress. If it was a constant boost though I also don't see why Vitiate wouldn't sever it after Scourge betrayed him.


I think, you're correct there.

quote:

Again, not true. In fact the encyclopedia indicates that Vitiate draws power from them instead of the other way around.


Yes, he gets some kind of power from them (Force energy, life energy) But they are, as well, getting power from him, given that they have a permanent connection to his mind and share his immortality.

quote:

Eh, this is the only accurate one you named. However, many of the Children were killed in the Consular storyline, including the First Son and they were thus revealed to the Republic, which likely lead to more of them being killed.


"Infants of every species across the galaxy were secretly visited by the Hand and brought before the Emperor, where he sunk his indisidious barbs into their malleable minds. The children were then returned to their cradles, unaware of the hideous power that lay dormant inside them." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.

Emphasis mine. The same page notes that the First Son was "the being who was first imprinted with the Emperor's power."

So, apparently, he leaves some of his power with his children and I doubt, that this part of his power somehow "returns" when they die. Meaning, essentially, that the Consular storyline resulted in a further weakening of Vitiate.


quote:

Also it only says that they 'share' a portion of his power, so its entirely possible that they are merely drawing on his power like the Imperial Guard does when near him. Also since the connection between he and them is always open I don't see why he couldn't draw on their power should he need to.


See above. They are imprinted with a part of his power. How else would he use them as "spies" without them even being aware of that?

quote:

I disagree. Vitiates power is stated in SWTORE to be ever increasing, not diminished. Furthermore he's been draining power from Revan for 300 years since his capture, again indicating an increased amount of power. And he's drawing power (and vitality) from the 12 Hands you mentioned. The only possible draw on his power IMO is from the Children and that is nebulous and arguable.


And is the term "power" referring to his force abilities specifically, Neph? The last time, I have read that particular statement, it was in reference to his "power base" (Hands, Voice, Wrath, Children), which did obviously grow after his confrontation with Revan. His personal force abilties, though?

Splitting his power at the very least between his Voice, his original body and his children, with potentially even more power delivered to his hands, and occassionally - I've forgotten that - the Imperial Guard drawing on it, I don't see how Vitiate as a person should be as powerful, as he was when Revan faced him (talking about his personal force abilities).

quote:

A fair comment, but the Hero's actions were always attributed to them in the game so thats how I presented it. I also don't think her companions contributions were that notable, with the possible exception of Scourge when he joins.


You should differ between actual game-play and storytelling. Just as example: When entering the ship of Darth Angral, T7 tells the HoT that he will go and disable the power reactors for the superweapon, while Kira and the HoT can go deal with Angral. In gameplay terms, the HoT does all the work with one of the two, though.

The second thing is, that I find it rather hard to believe - the same goes for the KotoR games - that having an entire crew, the respective hero will just go on a stroll with one or two of his companions in a quest to save the Galaxy. Taking the cutscene from above, it appears to be "canon", that the Hero, Kira and T7 where actively participating in stopping Darth Angral, when T7 is left out of the equation in terms of game play. Couldn't that apply to other situations as well, as long as there is nobody explicitly left behind (e.g. during the confrontation with the Emperor)?

So there might be 2, 3 or 4 companions with the HoT at some of his more grandious moments, where the gameplay allows only one. And even then: One can't outright dismiss another force user / a combat surgeon with heal abilities / an R2-like astromech / an heavy armed combat specialist or a freaking 300 year old Sith Lord.

And the third problem with this MMORPG "feats" I have, is that their nature is pretty much unknown. We don't know, whether the HoT struggled against Vitiate or stomped him. We don't know, if he just dueled the Sith Emperor in a "classic" match, as its seen in movies and cutscene, or if he was amped with heavy armor, personal shield, medpacks and stimulants. While this may sound like the "Revan might have defeated Malak with blasters and mines" stuff, in this case the options are far more limited and hence - seemingly - far more probable.

quote:

Kira is never shown drawing on the power of an Emperor's Child. We see in the Consular campaign that a Child is a completely different personality and being to their host, so I see no reason why she would be able to. Furthermore, she's an unfinished one anyway, as Vitiate notes, after calling her weak.


How could you even know that, Neph?
If that power is something, Vitiate stored within his children, even unknown to them, then how could they make a difference between their "own" power and that of Vitiate? And I think you are fairly underestimating Kira. When you go on a companion quest with her on Nar Shadda, it is revealed, that she pretty much exterminated an entire rivaling fashion that treated "her people" like slaves on her own. And apparently in a fashion that scared all other people off even years after she left.

Not too shabby, for some almost untrained force using youth, right?


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Last edited by Nai on Nov 19th, 2013 at 11:51 PM

Old Post Nov 19th, 2013 11:46 PM
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Nephthys
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The End


 

You're surprisingly knowledgeable Nai. Did/do you play TOR or is this all from research?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
"The Voice is the conduit for the Emperor's words." - Servant Two.

"The Emperor is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delivers his orders.[...]To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspire against him. Centuries later [after his confrontation with Revan], this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.

As Vitiate apparently retains a part of his power in his original body (otherwise the Voice wouldn't make much sense at all), there is some seperation of power between the Voice and Vitiate's original body. Which is only logical, as a body without Force energy is, pretty much, dead, as we all know from the KotoR-2-experience.


I don't see any separation of power between Vitiates real body and the Voice in those quotes. By all rights, the Voice is exactly what it says it is in the quotes I provided: the vessel in which Vitiates power and consciousness is stored. I think this is likely the case based on Warrior storyline, since in that storyline, Vitiate has been tricked into journeying (as the Voice) into the Dark Heart and was trapped there by Sel-Makor. Vitiate is actually completely trapped there because of this, he can't do anything with his real body, which surely wouldn't be the case if he was only partially occupying it in terms of mind and power. He needed the new Wrath to come to the Dark Heart and kill him before he could be free, at which point his consciousness and power presumably returned to his body none the worse for wear, since Vitiate is ready to create a new Voice immediately after this.

Yes, the Voice is merely something to allow him to interact with the world without any actual threat to his being, but that doesn't mean that it does not possess his full and total power. SWTORE and the codex do not say the Voice has a portion of his strength. They say it possesses 'his incredible power', definitively.

As to how this is possible without him dying, I think its basically established that Vitiate is more of a spirit than a man. He is doing what Kun did, except while still anchored to his real body and possessing proxies.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
Yes, he gets some kind of power from them (Force energy, life energy) But they are, as well, getting power from him, given that they have a permanent connection to his mind and share his immortality.


I see nothing indicating he's giving them power. That they are connected to his mind and share his longevity doesn't indicate he's giving them power. In fact in SWTORE, Scourges profile says this about them:

"For his dedication, Scourge was rewarded with the title of Emperor's Wrath and an eternally agonizing immortality. But unlike the servants of the Hand, the Wrath was spared the crippling binding process so that he may wield his full might to crush the enemies of the Emperor." - pg. 163

So by all rights they are given immortality through this binding process and not given power by that, but crippled for it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
"Infants of every species across the galaxy were secretly visited by the Hand and brought before the Emperor, where he sunk his insidious barbs into their malleable minds. The children were then returned to their cradles, unaware of the hideous power that lay dormant inside them." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.

Emphasis mine. The same page notes that the First Son was "the being who was first imprinted with the Emperor's power."

So, apparently, he leaves some of his power with his children and I doubt, that this part of his power somehow "returns" when they die. Meaning, essentially, that the Consular storyline resulted in a further weakening of Vitiate.


See above on the topic of his Voice. A good deal more power is sunk into the Voice, yet Vitiate was unaffected by its demise. Why should it be different for the Children? In both cases its his very being thats infused in them.

And I don't see how the power wouldn't be regain-able by him. As I said, Vitiates power is 'ever-increasing', so he doesn't weaken himself in the creation of the Children.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
See above. They are imprinted with a part of his power. How else would he use them as "spies" without them even being aware of that?


They aren't aware of it though. The Children are completely separate personalities to their hosts, as seen in the First Son who is a totally different person to Syo Bakarn. SWTORE says that Vititae 'can see and act on a whim' through the Children, since he shares in their thoughts and can easily possess them at any time. Their very being is bound to his, since as ares pointed out on page 6, it isn't just his power that resides in side them, they are "infused with part of his being". I see no reason that such a close connection wouldn't allow Vitiate to draw on their power if he had need to.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
And is the term "power" referring to his force abilities specifically, Neph?


Yes.

"In return, the Emperor draws on his servants (the Hand) strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail." - pg. 163.

Vitiate doesn't ever diminish himself. He only grows stronger. The Vitiate that the Hero fought was more powerful than the one Revan did.

CANON!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
You should differ between actual game-play and storytelling. Just as example: When entering the ship of Darth Angral, T7 tells the HoT that he will go and disable the power reactors for the superweapon, while Kira and the HoT can go deal with Angral. In gameplay terms, the HoT does all the work with one of the two, though.


I though T7 goes and finds computer access in that mission. He tells them to go shut down the reactors and fight Angral. Its not like he was actually fighting with them at the time.

The Hero doesn't do all of the work, even in gameplay, but remember that Kira is the Hero's padawan at the time and for good reason. The Hero does the lions share of the work since shes much more powerful than Kira (Kira directly says she has no hope of ever being as good as you).

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
The second thing is, that I find it rather hard to believe - the same goes for the KotoR games - that having an entire crew, the respective hero will just go on a stroll with one or two of his companions in a quest to save the Galaxy. Taking the cutscene from above, it appears to be "canon", that the Hero, Kira and T7 where actively participating in stopping Darth Angral, when T7 is left out of the equation in terms of game play. Couldn't that apply to other situations as well, as long as there is nobody explicitly left behind (e.g. during the confrontation with the Emperor)?


I'm pretty sure you're wrong about T7 fighting Angral with you.

I would disagree. There are missions in the game where the whole crew fights together and that is highlighted as happening. There are missions where its said what the other crew members are doing while you go with one. Furthermore, cutscenes occur and its still just one companion at the time and only your active companion can talk in conversation. Finally, I'm pretty sure there are numerous mentions of purposefully moving in a small team and of others staying on the ship. In this specific case of the Hero of Tython when you assault the Emperor's fortress its explicitly said that you only take one person with you, so I'll take that as meaning that's the Knight's usual modus operandi. If they only take one person with them to fight the freaking Sith Emperor, I doubt they feel the need for the whole team to beat Leeha Narez or whatever.

I mean, with this logic you could argue that the Strike Team took their whole crews with them to fight Revan. Which I highly doubt happened.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
So there might be 2, 3 or 4 companions with the HoT at some of his more grandious moments, where the gameplay allows only one. And even then: One can't outright dismiss another force user / a combat surgeon with heal abilities / an R2-like astromech / an heavy armed combat specialist or a freaking 300 year old Sith Lord.


Except that in her most grandious moments its noted that the Hero only has one companion (Kira for Angral and T7 for Vititate). Other than that.... before the start of Act II, well, I highly doubt T7 contributed much in battle. And I sincerely doubt Doc does either. A medic is only useful out of combat and in he would only be a liability. He only has heal abilities in gameplay remember. Outside of it its all kolto and stuff. So yeah, I'd dismiss them pretty easily. Guy who's name I don't even remember because he's so forgettable probably barely rates as well. He's just a soldier. And his big thing is that he gets a lot of his own troops killed so I doubt he's all that. I don't see any of the non-Force users as being helpful in a fight against anything better than standard Imperial soldiers, really.


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Last edited by Nephthys on Nov 20th, 2013 at 02:25 AM

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 02:21 AM
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Nephthys
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The End


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
And the third problem with this MMORPG "feats" I have, is that their nature is pretty much unknown. We don't know, whether the HoT struggled against Vitiate or stomped him. We don't know, if he just dueled the Sith Emperor in a "classic" match, as its seen in movies and cutscene, or if he was amped with heavy armor, personal shield, medpacks and stimulants. While this may sound like the "Revan might have defeated Malak with blasters and mines" stuff, in this case the options are far more limited and hence - seemingly - far more probable.


I fail to see how this matters. If the Hero won then they won. If they won through stims then they win through stims here too. Its irrelevant.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
How could you even know that, Neph?
If that power is something, Vitiate stored within his children, even unknown to them, then how could they make a difference between their "own" power and that of Vitiate?


Because I know how the Children work? You yourself posted the quote:

"Infants of every species across the galaxy were secretly visited by the Hand and brought before the Emperor, where he sunk his insidious barbs into their malleable minds. The children were then returned to their cradles, unaware of the hideous power that lay dormant inside them." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.

Its the Emperor's power that's inside of them aka darkside power. We see this when Vitiate possesses Kira, she starts glowing with red light since she's tapping into that power. The exact same effect occurs (almost) every time you face a Child in the Consular campaign, when you face the First Son and when you fight Vitiate himself.

Either way, its sealed so that most of them are taken as non-force sensitive. One notes that she had no idea she had this kind of power inside of her (she was a regular soldier before). Theres also the fact that Syo isn't nearly as powerful as the First Son.

Finally, Kira is an unfinished Child, recall.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
And I think you are fairly underestimating Kira. When you go on a companion quest with her on Nar Shadda, it is revealed, that she pretty much exterminated an entire rivaling faction that treated "her people" like slaves on her own. And apparently in a fashion that scared all other people off even years after she left.

Not too shabby, for some almost untrained force using youth, right?


Well she is a force sensitive. And I'm not sure shes almost untrained. She did grow up in a Sith academy. I mean, I'm not saying she's crap, but she is notably out of the HoT's league as well as out of the league of most people you fight. She gets taken captive by some random Sith in Act 1.


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Last edited by Nephthys on Nov 20th, 2013 at 02:30 AM

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 02:21 AM
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ares834
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quote:
They aren't aware of it though. The Children are completely separate personalities to their hosts, as seen in the First Son who is a totally different person to Syo Bakarn. SWTORE says that Vititae 'can see and act on a whim' through the Children, since he shares in their thoughts and can easily possess them at any time. Their very being is bound to his, since as ares pointed out on page 6, it isn't just his power that resides in side them, they are "infused with part of his being". I see no reason that such a close connection wouldn't allow Vitiate to draw on their power if he had need to.


I see no reason that it would give him access.

Ultimately, what the HoT fought was only part of Vitiate as other parts of his essence were withinthe Children. And nothing, other than an ambiguous use of the word "shared", suggest that he could draw power from his Children.

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 02:30 AM
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Nephthys
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He has access to their thoughts and body, why not their power? Vitiate was draining Revan in much the same situation, remember?


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 02:33 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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The notion that Vitiate would wish to weaken himself in any way by giving his power elsewhere before undergoing the most powerful ritual ever attempted is as ridiculous as thinking Revan>HoT. :trollface:


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 02:40 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
He has access to their thoughts and body, why not their power? Vitiate was draining Revan in much the same situation, remember?


Because they are different powers. Plenty of Jedi and Sith can use the force to control other characters but haven't shown the ability to drain them.

And we don't know how Vitiate was draining Revan.

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 02:41 AM
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NewGuy01
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Didn't Tempest provide a quote saying that Vitiate drew power from his children in an older debate, before ridiculing him because of yet another reliance on outside source for power?


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 02:45 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Didn't Tempest provide a quote saying that Vitiate drew power from his children in an older debate, before ridiculing him because of yet another reliance on outside source for power?


Don't remember. But it was the Hands probably not the Children.

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 02:49 AM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Because they are different powers. Plenty of Jedi and Sith can use the force to control other characters but haven't shown the ability to drain them.

And we don't know how Vitiate was draining Revan.


You mean like Vivicar possessing Yuon P- oh no wait, he WAS draining her. stick out tongue

He isn't just controlling them, he is connected to them mind, body and spirit.

Its very similar. And all it says is that there's a mental link:

"REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger. Though the two were physically separated by a dozen parsecs, there was still an unbreakable mental link, fashioned by the Emperor and sustained by the infernal machines powering the cell."


quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Didn't Tempest provide a quote saying that Vitiate drew power from his children in an older debate, before ridiculing him because of yet another reliance on outside source for power?


I think that was either wrong, or the Hands as ares says.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 02:53 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean like Vivicar possessing Yuon P- oh no wait, he WAS draining her. stick out tongue

He isn't just controlling them, he is connected to them mind, body and spirit.


His essence is within them sure, but that still doesn't mean he was or even could drain them or draw on their power.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its very similar. And all it says is that there's a mental link:

"REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger. Though the two were physically separated by a dozen parsecs, there was still an unbreakable mental link, fashioned by the Emperor and sustained by the infernal machines powering the cell."


The quote even refers to the "infernal machines" sustaining the mental link between the two. So no, it's not a very similar situation.

Last edited by ares834 on Nov 20th, 2013 at 03:03 AM

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:00 AM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
His essence is within them sure, but that still doesn't mean he was or even could drain them or draw on their power.


Urgh, so stubborn! >:[

Unfortunately it does. Vitiates power never diminished, he was always getting stronger CASE THE FVCK CLOSED.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
The quote even refers to the "infernal machines" sustaining the mental link between the two. So no, it's not a very similar situation.


Only in sustaining the link, which is irrelevant with the Children where the link is sustained by his ~essence~ being inside them.

Also

quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The notion that Vitiate would wish to weaken himself in any way by giving his power elsewhere before undergoing the most powerful ritual ever attempted is as ridiculous as thinking Revan>HoT. :trollface:


Hell yes.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:10 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Urgh, so stubborn! >:[

Unfortunately it does. Vitiates power never diminished, he was always getting stronger CASE THE FVCK CLOSED.


Only the opinion of the unnamed author...

Also, even if he is growing more and more powerful that could easily refer to his full power which he has dispersed amongst himself and his Children.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Only in sustaining the link, which is irrelevant with the Children where the link is sustained by his ~essence~ being inside them.


Except, the mental link between the two is entirely different. One is sustained by machines while the other is created by the Emperor's essence infusing the host.

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:24 AM
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Nephthys
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Registered: Dec 2007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Only the opinion of the unnamed author...

Also, even if he is growing more and more powerful that could easily refer to his full power which he has dispersed amongst himself and his Children.


Nope, case closed, I win. You did good, I did better wooooOOOoooooooo!

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(also if he really couldn't touch it afterwards, how would it still be part of his full power? erm)

Also, it hasn't been proven that putting portions of his power in them actually diminishes his personal power permanently. Perhaps he simply puts the power in and then replenishes it like with every other Force use.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Except, the mental link between the two is entirely different. One is sustained by machines while the other is created by the Emperor's essence infusing the host.


Ok...

In that the mental link with the Children is FAR deeper and stronger. Why would he be able to drain Revan with a link sustained by machines, but not with the Children who have his freakin essence inside them?????

Also, Vitiate still created the link in both cases, so I fail to see how the thing is sustained makes a lick of difference.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:35 AM
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