You forgot another option. GL was thinking loud about a tier list but never bothered to finish it or make one and Gillard felt he could complete it. Since GL never mentions it himself and since we know that his opinion like his scripts change regularely it's rather convienient that GL said something along those lines but might have a different opinion later on and the details are solely a brain child of Gillard. That's why we never see an official Tier list in canon sources (if one would officially exist it would be awesome enough and reason enough to publish it and use it), just those of some fanboys.
So don't behave like a retard and accept that some people disagree with YOUR opinion or your take on Gillards opinion/fantasy.
That's actually the most retarded explanation conceivably imaginable by mankind. Tribes in the Amazon rain forest who have never even used the wheel are currently screeching in terror over the sheer amount of mental gymnastics needed to even fathom something like this, especially considering it is stated that Lucas CREATED a tier system, not that he began work of it, spoke them out loud while Nick Gillard was nearby, passively watched as Nick Gillard created his own tier system for Revenge of the Sith and watched him communicate said tier system to Star Wars' official website, promotional material, magazines, the book that details the making of the Revenge of the Sith, etc.
If Nai would make such an argument, then the word "credibility" could not even be put in the same thread as him.
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 11th, 2017 at 11:13 PM
I don't see a LFL approved list anywhere, sorting the different characters into different tiers. Unless you bring it to the table, I will - simply put - act, as if it doesn't exist, because - spoilers - it doesn't in terms of official canon. Got that now?
So instead of giving me what I've asked for (the "tier list" that George Lucas has written down himself), you just keep bringing Nick Gillard, talking about it. Do you honestly not get how the verification of sources works? Hint: Not by citing the same source again, you lame ass excuse for an intelligent lifeform.
And then, you just do that...
...with a quote out of the year 2004.
What the hell?
Apparently, I need to explain it again. Whatever was done in some back-office during the production of Episode III is completely meaningless unless it found it's way in an officially published source. If you fail to come up with that source, I have to assume it doesn't exist in terms of canon, and hence, in terms of this forum. That Nick Gillard makes some reference to it, doesn't equal a publishing of the original material written by George Lucas and especially becomes completely moot when Gillard keeps contradicting himself.
What did find the way into a variety of published sources, after that particular interview, are the lightsaber forms Nick Gillard claims don't exist. That's what we call a "retcon". What found it's way into the published material, is the idea of George Lucas, that you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. Whether George changed his mind on the issue or LFL decided that other explanations would be preferable, doesn't matter. What matters is, that you have failed to produce the "level tiers" written by George Lucas. D'uh.
Where is the published level system? Making a reference to it in an interview is not publishing it. So bring me the source material or shut up. *shrug*
And you would be an 8. On its side.
Oh my god. Are you that dense?
What point is there in establishing a "tier system", when situational context (e.g. "emotions") does overwrite it anyway? Where is the point to try and introduce aforementioned tier-system as "proof" for anything, when it already fails in the only example that matters in this context? So maybe Anakin can't compete with Sidious as of RotS, because the Sith Lord would exploit his emotions. Tier system remains intact, situational context denies the idea that Anakin > Sidious. Hurr-durr.
And the "contradictions" I was pointing to, was Nick Gillard first saying, that there are just eight levels. Then suddenly there are ten levels. Then he sorts people around. Once Anakin is an 8 - maybe 9 via "cheating". Then Yoda and Mace are 8s, then Yoda is a 9, Mace an 8 bordering 9. And so on and so forth. If Nick Gillard can't make coherent statements about the supposed "level system", why should anybody give a damn about it? With the more important question being: If Anakin is always sorted in on one level with Yoda and Mace (with the "possible" sorting him one tier higher), how is that "proof" that he is superior to Yoda and Sidious? Especially when we factor in circumstances that may f... up that "level system" anyway (see: "emotions"). Maybe that was the reason for not publishing the "level system" in the first place?
To me, and pretty much all other intelligent people here, it's pretty obvious that Anakin, in his everyday shape in RotS, is clearly not a match for Sidious, even should he be more powerful (and in terms of raw potential he is) and even more skilled with a lightsaber than the Sith Lord. Because Sidious would outsmart him, play him, exploit his emotions. Whatever.
That would be pretty hard anyway, seeing how deep you buried your head in your own ass.
You do realize, that:
a) ...contrary to your claim, there is still no published "tier system" crafted by George Lucas himself, thus, it doesn't exist in terms of canon, even if Nick Gillard makes some obscure references to it.
b) ...the contradiction is actually whether there is an 8 or 10 level system and how the characters are placed within it.
c) ...putting Anakin on one level with Yoda, Mace and Sidious doesn't make him better than them, and you just keep making up the "bordering ten" part for Anakin, which isn't seen anywhere?
d) ...it doesn't matter at all, because of the stuff you quoted above, which essentially boils down to: "Even if Anakin is super skilled, his emotions will completely run wild and he will make mistakes that lead to his defeat." Which is great, because, really, if Obi-Wan can exploit that, what would Sidious or Yoda do?
And now for the absolute fantastic part:
What the actual f...?
Did you even read that? Who came up with the rating for the swordmen? Nick Gillard: "I had to give them levels." No mention of Lucas assigning those levels. It was Nick Gillard, probably the only person in the entire staff even giving a shit about fighting, contrary to the guy who - according to himself (RotS commentary) puts "they fight" into his scripts, when it comes to lightsaber duels.
FWI, for those wondering, it seems Nai is half going the "Nick Gillard is lying" route and half "Nick Gillard reformed the tier systems made by Lucas" route (an opinion with substantially less evidence than there is that unicorns exist), though dodges stating that outright for obvious reasons (Nick Gillard did 9/11?)
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 12th, 2017 at 11:32 AM
I wouldn't even bother with Ants posts. Reading his argumentation and the denial of simple logic just hurts. His posts seem to me like they are written by a 12 year old boy who wants to force his system down the throats of others. Ignore it.
I actually went back and looked at your older posts wondering why you completely ignored the published sources I published. As you gladly debate to the end here (http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...threadid=614610), you have the belief that an out-of-universe C-Canon source cannot dictate canon. You use this to justify your placement of Exar Kun around or above Palpatine. Fortunately for me, no one else has this belief, but I'm not going to waste time debating you on that when Gideon has for the last decade and has made no progress. So I'm going to say: let's agree to disagree, but just know that you're not going to be persuading really frequent user, which benefits my case drastically, since of course I want people to recognize this factual information.
So, with you particularly, the only out-of-universe claim that can be used is George Lucas himself, right? Even besides the fact that's... just incorrect, I'll play your game here.
So, we have Nick Gillard state the following within a published Lucasfilm source:
You keep dodging this point, but let's address it head-on... again.
Nick Gillard states that George Lucas created the list. We, as in myself and every non-special needs person, is operating under the assumption that, yes, Nick is therefore elaborating on George Lucas' creation when he states the tiers immediately thereafter, as indicated by him using "So," directly after noting, "George Lucas works on a system of levels." This is only the most logical explanation here. You keep suggesting the tier system was changed, reformed, modified, edited, altered, warped, twisted, or any other word, but there is no basis to this claim. There is no proof that Nick Gillard changed the tier system after George Lucas created them. This entire idea was completely fabricated by you. In fact, I'd call it straight up lying. Actually, that might not be fair to say - you do come up with some half-hearted reasons for why it must have been warped. Let's take a look:
- You: George Lucas states only Mace or Yoda can compete with Sidious.
I already provided an explanation for this, in which you response simply asked the practical purpose of why Anakin being a tier nine means anything if X, Y, and Z happen (in which Sasukedc / NewGuy01 explained to i_like_swords earlier in the thread, so check that out), rather than actually coming up with a reason why my explanation was false, so it seems you conceded the poitn as definitive proof the tier system was changed. Again, definite proof is needed when you make the claim that Nick Gillard changed the tier system after we have him, on-record, stating that George Lucas made it and then proceeded to state the tier system created by George Lucas.
- You: The tier systems are inconsistent.
They... aren't. The fact Nick Gillard has described them using scaling systems doesn't mean their inconsistent when the measuring is inconsistent.
I decided to create for you a visual representation of why it isn't inconsistent, since you seem to be... slow.
(please log in to view the image)
As you can see, even though the scales are different, the result is the same.
Again, consider the point of the tiers are to show which swordsman are better than which.
- You: The tier systems are retconned by the lightsaber forms.
No, they're entirely different concepts. This is one of those instances where you're actually right: Nick Gillard's opinion on lightsaber forms doesn't matter. The fact Nick Gillard recognizes or does not recognize the lightsaber forms has no bearing on the tier systems created by George Lucas, which are not remotely similiar in any way other than that they also have numbers attributed to them. Frankly, Nick Gillard seems to be under the impression that the lightsaber forms were created based on the tier systems. I'm not sure if that's true or not - I actually don't think it is - but that's not relevant. They are not two different versions of the same idea. One is the ranking of lightsaber duelists in skill. The other is outlining the primary lightsaber forms that Nick Gillard invented into seven categories.
--- --- --- --- ---
Finally, I'll go through your final points one-by-one to clarify any confusing details.
It's not an obscure reference, it's direct. Also, this idea that George Lucas has to publicly state the tier system for it to be canonical is laughable. Nick Gillard is speaking on the behalf of Nick Gillard in this situation.
Thus, we're back to my original proposition to you:
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 12th, 2017 at 08:28 PM
Addressed with a picture in case words are too complex for you.
Correct, but we have this statement that clarifies that Anakin is, indeed, better than them.
And yes, before you ask, we are operating under the assumption Nick Gillard has not changed the tier systems since George Lucas created them.
Because Nick Gillard's statements here are consistent with statements he made back in a 2005 interview about the tier system.
Nick Gillard has eight bordering nine, with Mace having the ability to drift on over to nine.
With Anakin, I'm assuming the same idea is in play, just with nine and ten.
That's a far more logical conclusion to reach then:
THE ENTIRE TIER SYSTEMS ARE THEREFORE NON-CANONICAL BECAUSE OF A PERCEIVED INCONSISTENCY!
That depends on a lot of factors, actually. As I mentioned earlier, check out Sasukedc / NewGuy01's post to i_like_swords.
(please log in to view the image)
Tell me why George Lucas and Nick Gillard couldn't have made them together. George Lucas would have still created them. Nick Gillard would have still created them.
Let's look back to the Making of Empire Strikes Back to see if there's any useful information:
The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.
Oh, look at that. Yeah, seems the same thing George Lucas and Leigh Brackett did for the original trilogy was done with George Lucas and Nick Gillard in the prequel trilogy.
--- --- --- --- ---
Your argument is legitimately terrible.
Yes, George Lucas created the tier system outlined in the starwars.com interview.
No, there is no reason to believe otherwise, even though you really, really want to.
I... I don't really know what more to say. Everything seems pretty obvious, but I imagine you'll continue this out for eternity. Isn't that how every debate with you and Gideon ended, after all? As I said earlier, if Gideon couldn't persuade you that Sidious beats Kun, I very much doubt I'll persuade you on this, and I do have a limit at which I will just decide to stop responding. Already, it seems, I have most of the forum agreeing with me, and across this debate, it seems even more users have decided to agree with me based on how retarded your own argument is. Given how there would be no point in me continuing unless someone below specifies they are hesitant here and want to see where this debate goes before they reach a conclusion, I see no reason to continue responding to your endless wall-of-texts.
Can we agree that this tier list is not in the official canon as a tier list? And hence also not anywhere on any site? So if you want to see it as canon go ahead, that's ok but since there is no official list published I consider it not canon.
You can persuade me though, just show me this tier list on an official site, a complete list as you visualized it (just the one from GL), shouldn't be hard with something that is considered canon by the SW staff.
I simply don't see it sorry. I mean if GL worked on it and finished it, why not publish it as a tier list. This is a simple interview.
You know such a list would be gold for the websites, magazines etc.? So why don't we have it? Was it not finished, was GL just working on it to never finish it and did Gillard took it upon himself. Did GL just forget to provide it to the official canon sources so they never published it?
As it stands now, it's simply not canon. But thanks for trying, no offense.
To make it more simple. The interview you showed me says that GL is working in a list and Obi-Wan would be something like a 6 or 7. Which makes sense, because GL was not sure yet if Obi-Wan is a 6 or 7 it seems, else the number would be set. We get only some indicators on how this list could look like but there is no list in this article. Let me help you. This would be a list.
Obi Wan 7, Anakin 8 (amped 9) Yoda 9, Sidious 9, Dooku 9, Vader 10, Han Solo 20...
I hope you understand it now.
So it means the list was not finished (is working on it, 6 or 7 etc.) and since it was never published he never finished it or didn't put it into canon. I would assume that he stoped bothering and concentrated on the story telling and Gillard just continued on the very little info that GL gave him.
Last edited by Prof. T.C McAbe on Oct 12th, 2017 at 09:35 PM