The level of butthurt here is amusing, to say the least.
Nope. That blast "really hurt" Freeza -- it didn't just singe his hand, lol.
...But you clearly didn't grasp the point behind that analogy, so I'll stop before your head starts hurting, lol.
Incessantly ignoring the fact that Cell was SUPPRESSED when he fought Goku(and SSJ Gohan) doesn't make it any less factual.
Yes, because Goku blasting/hurting a SUPPRESSED Cell has any bearing whatsoever on my previous statements regarding FULLPOWER Cell, right? Stop embarrassing yourself, lol.
Please do point out where I said that Cell was "multiple leagues" above Goku?
Jesus, your butthurtery is not only blinding you, it's literally causing you to make [more] shit up.
Okay..? Again, please point out to me where I said that a full power Cell could stomp Goku as easily as SSJ2 Gohan stomped Cell. STOP. MAKING. SHIT. UP.
Had Cell been using his full power from the onset, he could have beaten Goku soundly, yes... But his power certainly didn't need to double in order to do that.
Even if we use your arbitrary/made-up figure, this is still an arc where relatively minor differences in power equated to HUGE differences when they fought.
*To a SUPPRESSED Cell, perhaps.
The fact that you're still ignoring such a massive bit of context is hysterical. You're digging REALLY deep here, lol.
Okay, now I think you just proved who the 'idiot' is...
Cell was weakened after fighting Goku in his suppressed state. Despite this, Cell was STILL goading Goku into taking a senzu bean, because that was ONLY way Goku might have actually stood any sort of legit chance against him.
...But even if Goku were at 100% and Cell stayed in his weakened/depleted state, Goku's chances of beating him only increased "slightly": (please log in to view the image)
...And not a damn person on the field disagreed with Cell there.
But hey, keep ignoring evidence and pretending like Goku stood a legit chance against FULL POWER Cell(even though he likely couldn't have even beat a SUPPRESSED/BATTLE-WORN/DEPLETED Cell)... It totally doesn't make you look like a complete buffoon or anything.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Mar 9th, 2018 at 10:44 PM
is SSJGGogeta really trying to say that FP Cell -wasn't- well beyond Goku? that was eh.....obvious to anyone who saw the cell games and has basic computing skills.
why you guys even debate with him? just a f****** troll.
Yes, the level of butthurt from you and the pleb sock accounts like Mendax that agree with you, without inputting anything into the conversation.
1. How stupid are you, Galan? Are you suggesting that Frieza being "really hurt", by Goku singing his hand slightly is in any way comparable to Cell having the top HALF of his body vaporized by Goku? Frieza said he was "really hurt", because he wasn't used to having any pain inflicted on him, whatsoever, lol. I can post the scan- Frieza's injury was nothing compared to Cell being mostly vaporized.
Think about it- would you claim that burning your hand on a stove is comparable to being blown to bits by a grenade? No, lol. You'd still think burning your hand on a stove hurt though.
2. I admitted and acknowledged several times throughout my post- that Cell was holding back in his fight against Goku. That's not the point.
3. Cell was holding back a very small amount of his power against Goku. An amount of power so small that it couldn't bridge the gap between him and SSJ2 Gohan, when said bridge was actually larger than the one between Goku and himself. That has been my entire point this whole time. Cell holds the edge, but Goku is still a threat to him. This entire time- I've simply been pointing out that it's idiotic for you to assert that Goku was never a threat to him, when Goku certainly was- and indeed could have possibly even defeated him by using just one senzu bean.
4. Within the Cell saga, we did see that relatively small differences in power could amount to a large discrepancy in battle. That doesn't mean that Goku was never a threat to Cell. Hell, you could even argue that full power Super Vegeta was a threat to Perfect Cell. Despite Cell being MUCH stronger than Vegeta, Vegeta was nearly able to kill Cell with a fully powered Final Flash, and in fact would have done so if not for the fact that Cell realized this and dodged at the last moment.
Just like how Krillin nearly killed Nappa, despite being much weaker. Or Piccolo with Raditz, or how Tien managed to hold off semi-perfect Cell despite not even being within a comparable realm of power.
This isn't DBS we're talking about here- weaker characters can still put down or at least hurt/stall much stronger characters.
The ONLY assertion I'm making here is that your statement claiming that Goku was "never a threat" to Cell was erroneous.
__________________
"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
Again, Goku being a 'threat' to a SUPPRESSED Cell does NOT mean he was any sort of 'threat' to a FULL POWER Cell. Frankly, the fact that you're still trying to pretend otherwise is quite vexing.
You can be stubborn at times, but I know you aren't stupid. You know how DB-logic works, ffs... You also seem to acknowledge/recognize the fact that during the Cell saga in particular, relatively small differences in power equated to HUGE differences in-battle... So why on earth wouldn't that same basic logic apply to Goku and Cell..?
There's also the fact that Perfect Cell hadn't even began to power up when he fought ASSJ Vegeta, but you only seem to consider context when it's convenient. /shrug
*Never happened. Nappa tanked Krillin's "full power" blast outright(literally unscathed.) The *only* attack from Krillin that could have done a damn thing to Nappa was his Kienzan... Because it's the friggin Kienzan.
#Context
*a.) The PL of Piccolo's SBC =/> Raditz, b.) Goku was preventing Raditz from blocking/dodging the beam, and c.) Raditz had just been injured/weakened significantly by an enraged Gohan's headbutt.
#Context
*Unless you're trying to pretend like Tien was any sort of legit threat to Semi-Perfect Cell, then this showing is completely moot. Tien expended every iota of his energy, and it only amounted to pushing Cell down a few times -- Cell sustained absolutely NO damage whatsoever.
#Context
The rest of you post is chalk full of irrelevant non-sequiturs, red-herrings, and goal-post-movery. Not going to indulge that kind of BS baiting.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Tbh I'm not even sure why you're arguing with me here. You also know how logic works in DBZ, and the fact remains that there have been times when very powerful characters have been defeated/injured/staved off by far weaker opponents, simply because they underestimated said weaker opponent or were too confident in their own abilities.
Either way, nothing you've said changes the fact that Goku was able to keep pace with a nearly full power Perfect Cell, and was able to significantly damage him to the point of vaporizing half of his body. Without regeneration, Cell would have died at that point. Honestly, going by Cell's own words, he should have died regardless since his "regeneration lump" is located in his head. That's neither here nor there though- my point is that Cell was GENUINELY worried by the premise of Goku firing a full power kamehameha at him.
To say that Goku was never a threat to Cell is simply wrong. The gap between them was very small, and we've seen many times before that Goku's power can double or nearly triple when charging a full power kamehameha wave.
Also, let's be honest- you ignored the rest of my post because you knew you couldn't disprove any of my points. You were only able to point out that I was lacking context for the examples I posted, which is largely redundant.
My point here is that if Cell had sat there letting Goku charge up a Kamehameha at full power to unleash at him, and didn't dodge said kamehameha, retaliate with his own, or erect a barrier, Goku probably could have vaporized him completely and killed him, in my humble opinion. Therefor, it CAN be said that Goku was a threat to Cell. They were legitimate peers, even if Cell held a noticeable edge over Goku.
All I'm saying is that Goku was definitely a threat to Cell, and had Goku fought to kill Cell himself from the get-go, I believe that he could have done so in the same way Vegeta nearly did.
I mean, at least in my opinion, someone is a threat to you if they can injure you. Goku was able to injure Cell very handily. It wasn't a situation like SSJG Goku vs Beerus, where Beerus could casually tank everything that Goku threw at him. They were peers, even if Cell held a noticeable advantage. I.e. Goku was a threat to Cell. That's all I'm saying here, lol.
__________________
"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
And I could post a great deal MORE instances wherein weaker characters were entirely unable to harm more powerful characters.
Usually if a weaker character is able to harm a more powerful character in DB, there is a PIS-related reason why. ie. it's a specialized/haxx/OP attack, OR the more powerful character is caught off guard, OR the more powerful character was weakened beforehand, etc.
Because Goku 'keeping pace' with a SUPPRESSED Cell is in no way indicative of him being able to 'keep pace' with a FULL POWER Cell... Especially in DB-lore.
Why isn't this computing?
*SUPPRESSED Cell.
FULL POWER Cell is another matter entirely.
I ignored the rest of your post because it was full of non-sequiturs, red-herrings, and goal-post-movery, which are entirely irrelevant to the point at hand.
...But even IF I would have taken the time to pick the rest of your post apart, you would have just ignored it anyway, like you've done with nearly all of the other contextual points I've mentioned here. So why waste my time even more than I already have..?
Redundant? Lol, not at all.
It just serves as additional proof that you often do not consider underlying context before you start ranting/bashing... I simply called you on it this time.
*SUPPRESSED Cell.
FULL POWER Cell is another matter entirely.
*SUPPRESSED Cell.
FULL POWER Cell is another matter entirely.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Galan in your opinion what happens if instead of suppressed Cell what if it was fp Cell that Goku hit with the warp kameha? In a slugfest of course Goku gets demolished but you dont think that Goku could cause some problems with his creativity + Cell's arrogance?
So IF Goku hit full power Cell with a Warp Kamehameha, any damage Cell sustained would be relatively superficial, imo... Obviously much, much less than the damage he sustained from Gohan's beam.
Now IF Goku managed to catch Cell completely off guard(and by 'completely off guard' I mean Cell didn't know he was going to be attacked at all), then it's a different matter entirely. DB history has shown that when a character is caught entirely unaware, they can be hurt/killed by far inferior means that would normally have no effect whatsoever *see SSB Goku vs. Sorbet's ring-lazer*...
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Mar 14th, 2018 at 06:42 PM
Minor damage...? He had several limbs removed and was bleeding all over.
I think I understand what you're talking about here now though- You're not saying Goku couldn't vaporize Cell with a Kamehameha if both were at full power, you're saying whatever he could do to Cell would be simple for Cell to regenerate, and couldn't put Cell down for good. Am I right?
Because if that's the case, then I agree with you completely. I just think that saying Goku was never a threat is inaccurate. I personally believe Goku could have killed Cell in a variety of ways if he really wanted to, but I can definitely see what you're saying now.
Regardless, I still think it was retarded that Cell regenerated from Goku's kamehameha in the first place. He literally states on panel that he has a lump in his head that controls his regeneration, and as long as it's intact he can reform. I don't understand how he could regenerate from a lump in his head, if his head is completely vaporized.
__________________
"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
Relatively minor in the sense that he endured SSJ2 Gohan's Kamehameha head-on(which, again, was FAR more powerful than what anyone else on the field was capable of generating), without being completely blown to shit... To a guy like Cell, a few missing limbs is nothing.
I'm saying that the only way Goku could hope to injure a full power Cell is if he used some sort of cheap-shot/sneak-attack that Cell was entirely unprepared for. Sans that, he isn't harming full power Cell at all... And he obviously doesn't possess the power to cause any lasting damage to Cell, regardless.
Inconsistency at its finest.
Evidently that concept only applies if Cell's *entire* body is vaped, lol.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
The only thing I disagree with you on is that Goku couldn't harm full power Cell at all. Think about it, even being generous enough to assume that Cell was only operating around 80%(yes, this is generous considering that he was ragdolled so effortlessly by someone only 2X more powerful than Goku. The absolute lowest we can assume is that Cell was operating at maybe 60% when fighting Goku- but given the amount of difference in the difficulty he had fighting Goku compared to Gohan, I'd say around 80% would be more than a fair estimate), that means that Goku could potentially STILL damage him. We've seen, ever since the Raditz saga, that the Z-fighters including Goku can double or even TRIPLE their power levels when charging extremely powerful attacks. Goku went from something like 400 to 900, IIRC, when firing a kamehameha against Raditz. We have no reason to assume that principal doesn't still apply. So theoretically, a FULL POWER Kamehameha from Goku at that point should have been MORE than capable of injuring someone even as powerful as Cell, had Cell sat there and just taken it like he did with Vegeta's Final Flash.
I think there are a ton of factors that go into a characters durability in DBZ. They can increase their durability by powering up, similarly to how they increase their energy output(destructive capacity) by powering up. However, I'm not of the belief that even SSJ2 Gohan would have been able to outright tank a full-power kamehameha wave from MSSJ1 Goku at that point. Sure, he could easily bat it away, dodge it, or overpower it with his own blast/attack- but I don't believe he could have just no-sold it without receiving any damage. I believe the same goes for Cell's kamehameha that Gohan overpowered with his own. I don't believe Gohan could have outright tanked that attack without taking any damage, even as a SSJ2.
There are just too many variables to call it imo, and unfortunately it was never elaborated on whether or not the Z-fighters can raise their power levels by trying to tank attacks like they do when they're firing said attacks. Just like how I don't believe that KKX4 Goku during the Saiyan saga could have tanked Vegeta's Galick Gun, despite being far more powerful than Vegeta at the time. The blasts themselves often times seem to be capable of boasting power levels even higher than the pl of the person generating it, which is why you don't see very many instances in DBZ of someone tanking an attack outright. That's just my opinion on the topic, but I could be wrong. As I said, there are a ton of factors at work in this discussion.
Yeah though, that's another thing that makes it so hard to establish rules and definitive systems when discussing DB. There are just so many inconsistencies, lol. That's why I think it's worth debating in the first place.
__________________
"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
I understand what you're saying, but perhaps you don't understand what I'm saying..?
Using your same logic, it would mean that the Kamehameha SSJ2 Gohan used against a full power Cell was 2-3x more powerful than himself... Which means that it was approaching SSJ3-levels of power. Despite the fact that he didn't even attempt to block the beam, Cell 'only' came away with a few missing limbs and a bloody mouth(which, again, is nothing to him.) And as I mentioned earlier: that Kamehameha was FAR more powerful than what ANYONE on the field was capable of producing.
So imo, unless full power Cell was entirely unprepared for Goku's blast, any 'damage' he sustained from it would be relatively superficial. But again, if he were entirely unprepared for the attack, it would be a different matter entirely.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Uh, Goku had just fought Cell and was basically powerless. This in no way, shape or form, is an accurate representation of what Goku's performance would be like against a Cell jr. if he was at full power.
That's like saying that Saiyan saga Gohan ~ Saiyan saga Vegeta, because he managed to fight on par with him after he was nearly killed in his fight with Goku.
Figured that would be obvious, but I suppose not.
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"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
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