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Former Atheist Tried to kill his father; says Jesus saved him
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NemeBro
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The latter. thumb up


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 07:28 AM
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Deadline
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Aw how wonderful another Christian bashing thread. You guys having a good time? big grin


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 08:55 AM
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NemeBro
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I'm not bashing Christians. thumb down


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 09:07 AM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
I'm not bashing Christians. thumb down


I didn't single you out.


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 10:28 AM
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Bentley
Seitei

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I was not bashing christians either


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 10:44 AM
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Deadline
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Maybe you were, maybe you weren't. I see the usual suspects and the same sort of discussions.


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 10:46 AM
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Bentley
Seitei

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I don't like your tone


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 11:39 AM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bentley
I don't like your tone


I don't like your either.


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 12:34 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Why does one being morally superior to the other matter at all? Morality in of itself is not tangible, though it can be used to provide tangible benefit or harm. In this case, the benefits are exactly the same, so why does it matter? Why is it important for you to be able to look down on this person?


It's not about "feeling superior," it's about what's a stronger moral foundation. What is more likely to crumble at any moment: inward desire to do right for practical purposes of collaboration (our evolution) or fragile strings of religious belief for reward/punishment?

I'm not saying it's impossible for the latter to be effective. It's just not connected to reality.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
If this dude is truly a psychopath like you seem to believe, then there is no known cure for psychopathy.


There's no known cure for lots of things. Doesn't mean there aren't treatments and more or less effective methods of managing.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deadline
Aw how wonderful another Christian bashing thread. You guys having a good time? big grin


No one is harming Christians here. We're discussing ideas. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. sad


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 12:38 PM
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Bentley
Seitei

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I suppose that your argument is something not connected with reality cannot change by context, so it's obviously superior way to build a lasting morality set?


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 12:44 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bentley
I suppose that your argument is something not connected with reality cannot change by context, so it's obviously superior way to build a lasting morality set?


I'm not arguing that morality disconnected from reality is superior. So I don't know what you're getting at.


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 01:16 PM
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Bentley
Seitei

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I'm not arguing that morality disconnected from reality is superior. So I don't know what you're getting at.


This is not a question of whether something is superior morally but more reliable. And the way it's enonciated here is actually not very strict because you're amassing every potential belief into an afterlife "punishment" or "reward" into the same package disregarding the understanding of each individual on how those are obtained. Disconnected by reality means that reality cannot disrupt it as easily. Religion is almost never disconnected with reality, it's a social pressure and a political tool all at once.

I think we probably agree in the essential part of your assesment but the formulation is sloppy and unnecessarily biased against spiritual beliefs.


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 01:31 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bentley
This is not a question of whether something is superior morally but more reliable. And the way it's enonciated here is actually not very strict because you're amassing every potential belief into an afterlife "punishment" or "reward" into the same package disregarding the understanding of each individual on how those are obtained.


Hm. If something is more reliable, it would seem superior to me. Of course you could go into a lot more nuance with individual cases, but I'm taking it a bit more broadly.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bentley
Disconnected by reality means that reality cannot disrupt it as easily.


I see that as a bad thing. Inability to adapt is very problematic. Especially in evolutionary terms.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bentley
Religion is almost never disconnected with reality, it's a social pressure and a political tool all at once.


Sure, but in the religious perspective there is always at least some sense of morality being "handed down by God," separated from its practical reality. The Christian perspective is not "we need to behave well because that's what keeps society functioning and helps us collaborate effectively." No, it's not practical at all. It's we have to behave well because God said so and of course there's these things called "sin," "heaven," and "hell." You can't deny that those things are manipulative and have effects on people who are raised with it from an early age. I grew up in fundamentalist circles, so I know. Even more moderate circles certainly have some semblance of this. I'm not straw-manning.


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 01:56 PM
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mike brown
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I really don't think morality is typically something that is based in philosophy. It's more instinctual for most people and we just use philosophy to rationalize it after the fact. For people who instinctively lack morals we have deterrent systems in place to regulate their behavior.

Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 02:27 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by mike brown
I really don't think morality is typically something that is based in philosophy. It's more instinctual for most people and we just use philosophy to rationalize it after the fact. For people who instinctively lack morals we have deterrent systems in place to regulate their behavior.


That for the most part is what I've been saying. However I do believe in God.


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 04:35 PM
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Bentley
Seitei

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Hm. If something is more reliable, it would seem superior to me. Of course you could go into a lot more nuance with individual cases, but I'm taking it a bit more broadly.




I see that as a bad thing. Inability to adapt is very problematic. Especially in evolutionary terms.




Sure, but in the religious perspective there is always at least some sense of morality being "handed down by God," separated from its practical reality. The Christian perspective is not "we need to behave well because that's what keeps society functioning and helps us collaborate effectively." No, it's not practical at all. It's we have to behave well because God said so and of course there's these things called "sin," "heaven," and "hell." You can't deny that those things are manipulative and have effects on people who are raised with it from an early age. I grew up in fundamentalist circles, so I know. Even more moderate circles certainly have some semblance of this. I'm not straw-manning.



Well, we are delving into what I believe is where we agree. Because for me the problem is precisely that religion isn't really "abstract enough", people need a framework in order to relate with God, it's not just about getting vertical knowledge.

Religion can help build up that framework of thought and morality or it can dumb it down and display drastical contradictions. In either case the problem comes from the capacity and the willingness of the individual to create a valid ethical framework to interact with the world. Most religious communication IS manipulation (from a pragmatical standpoint), but some people aren't willing or able to construct a framework by themselves, so they need to be coerced into accepting others to do that work for it. Manipulation is still going to happen despite religion.

So there is one value and one distressing issue with religion at that point:

The advantage: Religion doesn't try to be entirely pragmatical. It adds a different layer of interactions that simply go beyond having a functional society.

The disadvantage: It adds fluff. Scripture can be an stimulating tool for improving upon your own morality and questioning your previous knowledge. Or it can add nothing at all and waste a time better spent in teaching people how to be good.


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Old Post Apr 3rd, 2019 05:22 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by mike brown
I really don't think morality is typically something that is based in philosophy. It's more instinctual for most people and we just use philosophy to rationalize it after the fact. For people who instinctively lack morals we have deterrent systems in place to regulate their behavior.


I tend to agree. It evolved out of practical necessity and now we talk about it (philosophy).


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bentley
The disadvantage: It adds fluff. Scripture can be an stimulating tool for improving upon your own morality and questioning your previous knowledge. Or it can add nothing at all and waste a time better spent in teaching people how to be good.


You need to have another "Or" in there:

Or it can act as a major obstacle for major moral progress. (i.e. slavery, women's rights, gay rights, etc..)


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Old Post Apr 5th, 2019 07:00 PM
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mike brown
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I tend to agree. It evolved out of practical necessity and now we talk about it (philosophy).
I agree... That's why I don't see the problem with this guy being motivated by a fear of hell let's say. He clearly lacks the kind of instinctive moral impulses I referred to earlier. So if a deterrent system works in it's place then I see that as a worthy solution. Of course I'm not at all confident that with therapy and meds he can come to feel the instinctive form of morality... And if he isn't deterred by jail then an atheistic world view honestly has nothing to offer in the way of motivation via deterrence.

Old Post Apr 12th, 2019 02:00 AM
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Bentley
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
You need to have another "Or" in there:

Or it can act as a major obstacle for major moral progress. (i.e. slavery, women's rights, gay rights, etc..)


The reason I didn't add that it's because it come from the interpretation of religion so I wouldn't say it's intrinsical (faith will always be interpreted). But you do make an insteresting point: pretending that religious teachings are all encompasing despite the fact tradition obviously couldn't have considered everything leads to potential inconsistencies. Religious morality needs to have a non religious counterpart on the side, because faith cannot consider every potential outcome of injustice at any given time. It's meant to serve as a base and never as an absolute.

"Faithless" morality compliments religion and it's, for people of faith, a necessity.


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Old Post Apr 12th, 2019 05:17 AM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
I'm not bashing Christians. thumb down


I'll bash them: f*ck lent. I had pepperoni pizza's on Friday's. Boom!


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Old Post Apr 12th, 2019 02:12 PM
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