Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That being said I'm still not really sure what this is about. I never even hinted to having the believe that more damage equals more pain, let alone not knowing what a nerve ending is.
Originally posted by srankmissingninThe norm is what is balanced out, and what makes since within what he is characterized to do. You have better sense of a medium than guys like jinzin and creshosk, I just find it hard to belive that you think wolverine is nigh indestructable, when he can be quite deceptively easy to kill.
Anyway what Wolverine feats am I going by? They are what I would consider the norm, you know the level at which he is portrayed the majority of the time... am curious what you are using as a guideline though.
Originally posted by srankmissingninI'm sure I've read somewhere in arguments, that wolverine will sit back and dodge everything and get that one lucky stab in, when its perfect for him.
Um have I ever said Wolverine is a defensive combatant?
Sorry if you didn't say it, but damn there are so many people on different forums implying it, and I'm sure I've heard the wolverine is a trained ninja so he'll sit back, a time or two from you.
My problem is this, wolverine takes hits because he can, and he shows it, he runs into battle, more often than not.
Not saying he's stupid, but careless more often than not.
Originally posted by srankmissingninJust so we're on the same page, a plot device is a person or an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot. In the hands of a skilled writer, the reader or viewer will not notice that the device is a construction of the author—it will seem to follow naturally from the setting or characters in the story. A poorly-written story, on the other hand, may have such awkward or contrived plot devices that the reader has serious trouble maintaining suspension of disbelief; indeed, the devices may even leave plot.
Man you and I really are on two separate pages aren't we? Right now I'm trying to figure out what exactly your idea of a plot device is... I have to admit I'm kind of at a loss.
Its not that you are wrong, but I'm going to explain what I'm saying here...
Originally posted by srankmissingninCorrect, A plot device is a person or an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot. In the hands of a skilled writer, the reader or viewer will not notice that the device is a construction of the author—it will seem to follow naturally from the setting or characters in the story. A poorly-written story, on the other hand, may have such awkward or contrived plot devices that the reader has serious trouble maintaining suspension of disbelief; indeed, the devices may even leave plot.
If Wolverine was fighting Venom and all of the sudden they crashed into a building that just happened to have, lets say a flame thrower, then that would be a plot device. Adamantium causing damage to intangible people? Yeah thats a plot device. Adamantium causing an feed back of energy that knocks out Ghost Rider after coming into contact with him? Thats be a plot device.
Originally posted by srankmissingninI can and have mentioned them, but thats not my point on THIS particular issue.
Now try to keep this in mind for a second and tell me what are these plot devices that allow Wolverine to hang with class 100s?
Lets take batman for instance. he is one BIG plot device, he is a walking plot device. The very story is often written on batman, batman tools and his adventures are one in the same, why? Because it fluctuates to meet the writers needs EACH and EVERY time.
Wolverine is no different, if he's fighting a daredevil and a batman, he's down from those hits, but if he fights guys like namor, he takes the hits without falling, why?
To make the comics look good.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has beaten the Hulk several times in comics but I have never said that I think Wolverine can beat the Hulk. Why? Because I don't think that he can. Taking hits for the Hulk is an other thing entirely and something that Wolverine is more then capable of.
Why you ask, its one big PLOT device, it makes the writing look good, we buy it we read it.
Is it good for a discussion, sure as hell it is.
Is it good for a hypothetical debate which is centered, focused, and contingent on logic. No, not at all.
My point is to dissect and sever that, entertainment is MUCH higher on the list than accuracy my friend.
The writers aren't doctors, or scientist, they're writers. They are there to make and write the stories we like and love to read.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
How many times has Spider-man crawled away beaten, gone to his lab and cooked up something that will help him in his next fight.
Many times, but you and I both realize that this isn't within the forum guidelines, and it should be discarded.
Now how MANY times has spiderman thought on the fly and used that many times to win?
Therefore his wit should NOT be discarded, intelligent characters get a big ps rap which is fine.
Does spiderman use his wit consistently, yes.
What is wit?
These nouns denote forms of expression that elicit amusement or laughter. Wit implies intellectual keenness and the ability to perceive and express in a diverting way analogies between dissimilar things: “Wit has truth in it; wisecracking is simply calisthenics with words” (Dorothy Parker). Humor suggests the faculty of recognizing what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd: “Man's sense of humor seems to be in inverse proportion to the gravity of his profession” (Mary Roberts Rinehart). Repartee implies a facility for answering swiftly and cleverly: “framing comments... that would be sure to sting and yet leave no opening for repartee” (H.G. Wells). Sarcasm is a form of caustic wit intended to wound or ridicule another: “ [His] tone seemed as if meant to be kind and soothing, but yet had a bitterness of sarcasm in it” (Nathaniel Hawthorne). Irony is a form of expression in which an intended meaning is the opposite of the literal meaning of the words used: “A drayman in a passion [a rage] calls out, ‘You are a pretty fellow,’ without suspecting that he is uttering irony” (Thomas Macaulay). See also synonyms at mind
Spiderman does more than tell jokes my friend.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That is a plot device and the only person who wins due to plot devices more often is Batman himself.
I disagree for the reason of wolverine doing so, his healing factor is one BIG plot device.
Reed, Doom, all these characters are PLAUGED by this.
Peter is the biggest CIS character out there, him and flash.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Its not a hard concept to grasp... its just wrong.
To top it off, don't feel like I'm singling him out, as the xmen have been doing this because of popularity, but wolverine THRIVES in it.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
On top of that it requires someone to ignore 80% of Wolverine's showings on the grounds that he was "illogically amped up" and chose at their own discretion the showings they like from the remanding 20% of his appearances.
No it doesn't, I've beaten these head on with plain ol logic, comics do draw for exaggeration.
"Wolverine moving faster than sound"
"Wolverine jumping 50+ feet right into the air"
Many of these are cut out from simple logic.
People choose the creme la creme, and want wolverien to do things he shouldn't really be doing by his classifications.
Wolverine is a peak human, a cool character, but a peak human.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No he wins because he still has a means to damage (massively damage by the way) people who "CLEARLY outclass him,"
He CAN win because of that, but he most likely will not in most cases.
Guys like rhino, yes.
Guys like namor, no.
These people can cancel out wolverine's range just fine and give him all the damage he needs.
Now in a popularity contest wolverine wins just fine...
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
and healing factor that affords him the option of taking their hits.
This isn't within the pages of a comic book, both are fighting at their best.
Is it safe logic to say wolverine can do this? Yes, but don't say logic doesn't revolve around debating.
These characters have faced guys with healing factors before, just has wolverine faced guys with strength before, he can win.
One hit keeps him in the atmosphere though...
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wasn't a fight. Wolverine was attacking the Hulk then stopped and the two shook hands.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That was a fight between Skrullverine and the Hulk actually (at least I think it was)
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Death Wolverine real didn't have any up grades save for his sword. In fact Death Wolverine fared worse against Cable then normal Wolverine did.
Are we talking about the one, who went through cyclops full force blasts, and storms wins.
If this is a weaker wolverine, something is wrong here...
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine does more then "stand up" to the Hulk, he holds his own in their fights.
Not by getting hit like a dummy, he dodges like other heroes who have common sense would.
He shouldnt' really be doing that, but he gets speed to match characters like hulk when he fights them, I'll let that slide, sine you are hopefully seeing my point.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If the Hulk was your standard run of the mill brick with class 100 strength and limited invulnerability, he wouldn't survive an encounter with Wolverine.
Thunderclap, you may not like it, but then again, wolverine's hyper senses don't either, don't worry.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Faster then Hulk? Big check.
Originally posted by srankmissingninIn terms of what, attacking, then absolutely positively, like I said about hulk, refer above, but tone it down of course.
Faster then Thing? That be another check my friend.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Sabretooth and Venom? Well no but they aren't bricks so it doesn't really hurt my point.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Do you want to know why Wolverine doesn't do so well in his threats? Its because some jackass has no problem say "look ignore the hundreds of times Wolverine has taken hits from heavy hitters because its total bullshit!
No, its because someone comes on threads he CLEARLY shouldn't be winning and overrate the pure piss out of him.
5 elder preds, people swear up and down, wolverine will kill them without taking a hit.
"wolverine is the bestesat whuct the doese, he canutu loswth"
Godzilla, people don't realize that his claws can't even get to a lethal spot.
God sakes, people were arguing wolverine could win against metallo, and even wonder woman.
These people are what makes guys like you work go in vain, and I know it sucks, and sympathize.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Look here is Cyclops getting the better of Wolverine! Now that one feat clearly out weighs all others."
Wolverine would lose to cyclops 10/10 in a logical fight, hands down.
This is where popularity comes in and makes wolverine do well, because it upsets the fanbases of wolverien otherwise.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
..you didn't forget that I think Spider-man wins did you? And that his range is the reason I believe this.
I remember loud and clear, don't worry.
His speed and precog, along with strength and agility help to maintain this range though...
I agree with your conclusion, but not your premise
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Now you really don't want me to explain the difference between Doc Ock and the Hulk or Thing do you? I'd really rather save you the embarrassment.
Wolverine gets grabbed he loses leverage, and he is defeated, simple as that, in any case, Thing and Hulk can take a few of wolverine's shots and grab him into submission.
After all they have higher initial durability to do so...
Originally posted by srankmissingninAre we talking about when storm had to come rescue wolverine in the end?
Marrows bone to the wind pipe did nothing except really piss Wolverine off. Cannonball had to crash into him to stop Wolverine from killing Marrow.
Originally posted by srankmissingninYes that counts too.
Not sure which Archangel thing you are talking about but his razor feathers send a shock to the nervous system and temporally paralyze the victim.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Ogun... mr. I can kill a full grown water buffalo with a casual slap, am beyond the concept of pain and death Ogun? And Silver Samurai has never given Wolverine to much trouble.
Originally posted by srankmissingninWait wait wait, have you ever been knocked out before.
Once again to be koed you need to go down for the ten count... being knocked out for a second or two doesn't qualify a win.
Concussive force is MUCH harder for wolverine to heal out of...
That isn't the stipulations of this match at all either, please don't add any.
Originally posted by srankmissingninI sympathise.
*sigh*
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
So in sort basically what you are saying is that the Hulk must not have been using his full strength because if he was *you think* that Wolverine couldn't take it. That isn't a very compelling argument.
I know you love xmen dude...
"wolverine is immune to leverage"
"wolverine is faster than sound"
"wolverine can jump 50 feet in the air"
"wolverine is a high level superhuman"
aren't compelling arguments either, and are pretty old.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Hehe... Hulk pulling his puches, I just can't get over that 😆
I've heard of loving wolverine, but goodness...
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
He shouldnt' really be doing that, but he gets speed to match characters like hulk when he fights them, I'll let that slide, sine you are hopefully seeing my point.
Dude wolverine started of as a Hulk villian I am sure he dodged Hulk in that comic at least once. I am pretty sure he wasnt bieng overatted then because nobody knew who he was. Wolverine also goes at it with Wendigo to so was overrated the first time he came out. From what I know Cyclops couldn't have fought both those guys. 😛
Originally posted by DroopyAnd for some time afterwards apparently.
Dude wolverine started of as a Hulk villian I am sure he dodged Hulk in that comic at least once. I am pretty sure he wasnt bieng overatted then because nobody knew who he was. Wolverine also goes at it with Wendigo to so was overrated the first time he came out. From what I know Cyclops couldn't have fought both those guys. 😛
He was a superhero, Colossus hit him full force, and Wolverine being overrated before he's really established gets the boost to take the shot.
Originally posted by Droopy
Dude wolverine started of as a Hulk villian I am sure he dodged Hulk in that comic at least once. I am pretty sure he wasnt bieng overatted then because nobody knew who he was. Wolverine also goes at it with Wendigo to so was overrated the first time he came out. From what I know Cyclops couldn't have fought both those guys. 😛
he was a hulk villan, did I say he wasn't, wolverine did terribly in that fight, terrible.
I know he dodged, thats how he lasts so long.
wolverine beating x, so he beats xxx, doesn't mean SQUAT here.
cyclops kicks wolverine's ass.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
circumstance, took the words right out of my mouth.circumstance, are you catching on to what I'm saying.
Four Horsemen wolverine, because if we are talking about that one, he had enhancements to his body as well.
Are we talking about the one, who went through cyclops full force blasts, and storms wins.
If this is a weaker wolverine, something is wrong here...
Not by getting hit like a dummy, he dodges like other heroes who have common sense would.
He shouldnt' really be doing that, but he gets speed to match characters like hulk when he fights them, I'll let that slide, sine you are hopefully seeing my point.
If hulk is logically trying his best, then wolverine is dead EACH and every time before the starting bell.
Thunderclap, you may not like it, but then again, wolverine's hyper senses don't either, don't worry.
How so, hulk can run several miles per hour along the ground.
In terms of what, attacking, then absolutely positively, like I said about hulk, refer above, but tone it down of course.
I didn't know what you meant by brick, but if this is wolverine prime that moves faster than sound...
No, its because someone comes on threads he CLEARLY shouldn't be winning and overrate the pure piss out of him.
5 elder preds, people swear up and down, wolverine will kill them without taking a hit.
"wolverine is the bestesat whuct the doese, he canutu loswth"
Godzilla, people don't realize that his claws can't even get to a lethal spot.
God sakes, people were arguing wolverine could win against metallo, and even wonder woman.
These people are what makes guys like you work go in vain, and I know it sucks, and sympathize.
Wolverine would lose to cyclops 10/10 in a logical fight, hands down.
This is where popularity comes in and makes wolverine do well, because it upsets the fanbases of wolverien otherwise.
I remember loud and clear, don't worry.
His speed and precog, along with strength and agility help to maintain this range though...
I agree with your conclusion, but not your premise
Nono, I read your quote just fine, and it sounded like wolverine can cut everything up, and I'm sure that titanium would be like butter to those claws.
Wolverine gets grabbed he loses leverage, and he is defeated, simple as that, in any case, Thing and Hulk can take a few of wolverine's shots and grab him into submission.
After all they have higher initial durability to do so...
Are we talking about when storm had to come rescue wolverine in the end?
Yes that counts too.
Silver samurai has been a rival to wolverine for years.
Wait wait wait, have you ever been knocked out before.
Its a state, you don't just "pop up", from it by simply reconstructing damage in the manner you speak of....Concussive force is MUCH harder for wolverine to heal out of...
That isn't the stipulations of this match at all either, please don't add any.
I sympathise.
I'm saying that hulk would ko' wolverine just fine at his best, it shouldn't even be up for discussion, a trained martial artist could do it.
Try countering the facts and claims and you'll understand.
I'm tired of the "it happened" so it must be true and logical, wolverine is street level, hulk has ripped onslaughts armor, lets not forget that.I know you love xmen dude...
"wolverine is immune to leverage"
"wolverine is faster than sound"
"wolverine can jump 50 feet in the air"
"wolverine is a high level superhuman"
aren't compelling arguments either, and are pretty old.The hulk that broke an asteriod?
The hulk that lifted a mountain?
The hulk that bent and crushed adamantium?
That hulk?I've heard of loving wolverine, but goodness...
I'm really tried right now and there was only one thing I want to respond to in this post...
I ****ing hate the god damn x-men
Originally posted by DroopyThats how he lasts so long, hulk is faster.
Well if you know he dodged and thats how he lasts so long then why did you say he gets speed boosts against guys like Hulk when he came out fighting the Hulk did he get a speed boost then because he dodged Hulk then. 😛
Do you know your comics? 😄
what do mean my logic I am just saying one minute you say he needs speed boosts to fight the Hulk the next you say him dodging the Hulk is how he lasts in the fight with Hulk, is faster but the thing is if he came out dodging the Hulk how does he get a speed boost when nobody new anything about him to say he got a speed boost and if cyclops beats wolverine then X men kill spidey 😛
Originally posted by brainchild81
Doesn't make any sense. Spidey's dropped him. Namor's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay stronger than Spidey. KO him? I'll be extra nice and say that the adamantium stops that. Namor's punches should @ the very least be able to send Wolvie airborne.
My sentiments exactly.
The writers aren't doctors or mathatics, they're writers.
He punched wolverine not once but twice, and wolverine hit him right back without flinching.
They do this for the fight to look interesting, hulk could EASILY thunderclap wolverine or something.
Note, spiderman "flicked" wolverine 30 feet, a backhand a swat, next he's hitting him hard and wolverine doesn't flinch.
THEN wolverine backhands spiderman 39 feet, something he's too weak to do.
Originally posted by Droopy
what do mean my logic I am just saying one minute you say he needs speed boosts to fight the Hulk the next you say him dodging the Hulk is how he lasts in the fight with Hulk, is faster but the thing is if he came out dodging the Hulk how does he get a speed boost when nobody new anything about him to say he got a speed boost and if cyclops beats wolverine then X men kill spidey 😛
He does hit hulk, this is a hypotetical debate.
its a speed boost to make the fight look interesting man, he's also faster against guys like spiderman too.
I'm saying that you are fluctuating your points, is my point, you want to go by what happened, then shift back over to "what can happen" to support you.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Originally posted by Droopy
But the thing is you cant really say that wolvie is doing something he isnt capable of in his first appearance he did what you said he couldnt,writers or not if he came out a villian for the Hulk he should be able to dodge him at the least.
He can do a few dodges yes, you have strawmanned my argument.
Remember how you said "one mistake will cost him"?
My sentiments exactly.