Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by Never
LoL. The profile says "limitless" yet you say he has a limit? The profiles as agreed to by Marvel's editors - yet you say he has a limit? Guess who is waaaaaaaaaay more credible? Since the profile says it (and has consistently said so) I could not care less what you say about it.

- Who's more credible ? Probably the editors, but don't ask me why.

- Who's more logical and consistent ? Definitely me. I do NOT change the Hulks powers according to a story, an opponent or, even worse, popularity like lots of writers/editors like to do !!

And I have this strong feeling the only reason the Hulks strength is called "limitless" is because the writers themselves wouldn't have the faintest idea about the maximum power level of the Hulk. Too many contradictions have shown up in the Hulk stories (well, in most series), so I do not take the "profile" of the Hulk that serious.

Uh, ever seen a big ass bully get his ass handed to him by a much smaller, much weaker opponent? Hmm, I wonder why? Fighting SKILLS? Ever see Hulk amongst the best h2h combatants? No. When was strength the only important variable in a streetfight?

Strength, weight and size are very important factors when it comes down to a (street)fight. Everybody knows that. Only experienced fighters don't care much about these things because they know how to handle them.

Why does Gladiator get his ass kicked so often when he is allegedly amongst the strongest? Why does Galactus get turned back so often? Why does Silver Surfer lose so much? Strategy? Being "out thought?" Out-hustled?

Don't know, you tell me. But I would guess "bad writing". The comic world is full of it...

Onslaught "held" him until he got angry enough, apparently. Then Hulk cracked open his armor. I distinctly recall Jean "turning off" Banner in Savage Hulk, thus releasing Mindless Hulk (who "logically" has a higher anger threshold).

And the editor approved it.

That says a lot of the editor.

But I think I’m going to end the discussion. We can argue until the cows come home about whether the Hulks strength is limitless or not, but nobody will change his of her mind.

Originally posted by who?-kid
- Who's more credible ? Probably the editors, but don't ask me why.

"Probably?" As regards to Hulk? More like "incontrovertibly."

- Who's more logical and consistent ? Definitely me. I do NOT change the Hulks powers according to a story, an opponent or, even worse, popularity like lots of writers/editors like to do !!

Prithee, how did Hulk's powers "change?" Meant to ask again, how is Hulk's lifting 150 billion tons "out of character?" Perhaps you meant "hyperbole?" Hulk FLYING is "out of character." Wolverine lifting 80 tons is "out of character." Spiderman shooting concussive beams of force from his hands is "out of character." How is Hulk lifting an incredible amount "out of character?"

And I have this strong feeling the only reason the Hulks strength is called "limitless" is because the writers themselves wouldn't have the faintest idea about the maximum power level of the Hulk. Too many contradictions have shown up in the Hulk stories (well, in most series), so I do not take the "profile" of the Hulk that serious.

List one contradiction? Do keep in mind also that WRITERS are oftentimes responsible for these "contradictions" - for example, Wolverine dodging bullets.

Strength, weight and size are very important factors when it comes down to a (street)fight. Everybody knows that. Only experienced fighters don't care much about these things because they know how to handle them.

Hmm. In a fight between Bruce Lee and...er um...someone 6'3", 215lbs who are you betting on? How about a fight between Gracie (forgot his name, the grappler who won the Ultimate Fighting Championship) and umm...Peyton Manning? Strength, weight, size may be of SOME import but they are far from being the MOST important (hence my wondering why it is difficult to believe that Hulk could lose fights). What happened to agility, quickness, balance, and plain old fighting SKILLS?

Don't know, you tell me. But I would guess "bad writing". The comic world is full of it...

Can't really say much to that. To each his own as regards to an opinion of "bad writing."

But I think I’m going to end the discussion. We can argue until the cows come home about whether the Hulks strength is limitless or not, but nobody will change his of her mind.

I thought you were questioning Hulk's ability to lift 150 billion tons, not whether or not it is limitless...and AGAIN, I have no clue why anyone would question his official profile? They say the same thing about Magneto - "his powers are, for all intents and purposes, limitless."

]Originally posted by Juggernautfan it's ok to accept "hulk is the strongest one there is" said from hulks own moutj, but it's not ok to accept "nothing can stop me" from juggernaut's mouth.

Oh yawn, does HULK write "The Incredible Hulk?" Is it not Marvel that references Hulk as, among other things, "Earth's Mightiest Mortal?" You talk as if Hulk grabs the pen and says "I am the strongest one there is." No.

hahaha....yea Never, even the Skrull Empire who deal with the Gladiator on a regular basis regard the Hulk as the Earth's mightiest mortal...the Skrull Empire!....ah and Odin refered to him with the same epithet back in one of Hulk and Thor's first battles....so its not just the Hulk saying this stuff...Juggernaut fan, u sound a little less fanatical and more logical when u talk about jugs these days, thats good....but i think ur over doing it when u make so many conclusions about Jugs' powers...like i said earlier, Nightcrawler threw a torch at his face back in the issue i quoted earlier, uncanny x-men #102...and he screamed "you hurt me"...also have u ever read new warriors issue#12...he gets fried by a weakened force field that probably would have killed him if at full power...he screams, "AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHH", falls to his knees, then on his face, momentarily unconscious...then he gets up, can barely speak, and has burns all over his back....later that issue a Thor-like Egytian God, knocks him on his ass with an extra huge lightning bolt, and then they prove to be equal as they trade punches...neither of these two examples support your THEORY.....yes very shaky THEORY that Jugs can take as much punishment as the reality around him or that he is unstoppable....like i said before the gym is not all powerful, it just has a threshold where if enough physical punishment is delivered, Jugs can be hurt and stopped

I’ll give 2 examples, but there are other examples.

A non enraged Hulk, a relatively calm Hulk being, out of the blue, able to carry 150 billion tons, where he normally should carry let’s say 100 tons, that is “out of character”.

100 tons => 150 billion tons !! in a few seconds, without being real mad ? Becoming millions of times stronger just like THAT ?

We’re not talking about 120 tons, or 150 tons, or 200 or even 500 tons. We’re talking about 150 billion tons !! Well, that’s a classic example of what I call “bad writing”. It should never have happened.

And when our green friend gets truly mad, Onslaught still manages to kick his ass rather easily. A Hulk that can lift 150 billion tons in a rather calm state, should be able to fart Onslaught away when he's really angry. But Onslaught ruled during that fight (except for the “final” punch of Hulk, and some people – including me – claim that this was the intention of Onslaught, but that’s a different something).

Now, do you call that logical ? I don’t.

Another example : Hulk vs Thor, we discussed this already. It’s the fight when dr. Strange banished the Hulk to another dimension.

Was Hulk mad while fighting Thor ? O man, he was furious !! And mean !!He should have been almost limitless strong !! Did he beat Thor ? Nope. Very good fight, granted, but in the end, the Hulk had to bow for the power of Mjolnir and Thor.

There ARE other examples…

So the power level of Hulk is very “obscure and variable" to say the least. That’s the reason I do not take his profile that serious, because there are too many contradictions. Not that hard to understand, I think.

Hulk's strength doesn't just increase when he is mad. His strength increases when his adrenaline surges. Adrenaline is generally released when angry or mad....this is true.

But it also happens when you're scared. You ever been scared sh!tless? Know that feeling that your heart is going to explode?

Ex. ever hear that story about a mother who was able to lift up a car because she knew that her baby was trapped inside of it? That mother wasn't mad because her son was about to get squashed by a car...she was scared half to death.

Being scared is a far stronger adrenaline rush than getting angry...

Hulk...in the split second he had before that mountain got dropped. Must have damn near sh!t his pants. Later in the comic, he's holding up the mountain range but gets weaker because that initial adrenaline rush is fading quickly. So Reed Richards antagonizes Hulk to make him angrier (hoping to boost his strength so he can brace the mountains longer) Hulk even points it out at the time...

In real life...not comics. Isn't it safe to say that you're stronger when you're scared for your life as oppose to angry enough to murder someone?

Originally posted by Linkalicious
Hulk's strength doesn't just increase when he is mad. His strength increases when his adrenaline surges. Adrenaline is generally released when angry or mad....this is true.

The most important factor - talking about Hulk - to become stronger is his rage. Being scared (adrenaline or no adrenaline) hasn't helped him much.

Ex. ever hear that story about a mother who was able to lift up a car because she knew that her baby was trapped inside of it? That mother wasn't mad because her son was about to get squashed by a car...she was scared half to death.

Okay, but still she didn't get millions of times stronger, did she ? And I'm sure she (almost) broke her back. I have no problem with your adrenaline-theory, but I wouldn't rely on it too much.

Being scared is a far stronger adrenaline rush than getting angry...

Hm, it's a good point, but I don't know... if you ask me, being really furious is a stronger adrenaline rush than being scared. And certainly a more dangerous one.

Who do you want to fight : an extremely scared opponent or an extremely furious opponent ?

Hulk...in the split second he had before that mountain got dropped. Must have damn near sh!t his pants.

True, but as you say, a split second... that's too fast to be credible, even in comics. The difference with his "normal" power level and with that one from Secret Wars is, in my opinion, too big AND too fast. In other fights it sometimes takes him ages to become strong enough.

And who says he was that scared ? He looked surprised.

Later in the comic, he's holding up the mountain range but gets weaker because that initial adrenaline rush is fading quickly. So Reed Richards antagonizes Hulk to make him angrier (hoping to boost his strength so he can brace the mountains longer) Hulk even points it out at the time...

Yes I know. I never argued about it. I just wanted to say that I think it's a mistake.

But you have some good points. See you.

only thing i'll comment on is the "who you'd rather fight?" question.

Fighting someone and performing physical acts of strength are two different things.

A scared person's body would be just as ready to receive pain and abuse and it would be able to perform similar feats of strength to that of an angry person, but he wouldn't win the fight because the angry person has the desire to harm and the scared person would defend. Also, head trauma, from getting punched in the head makes you lose the ability to function your body properly.

Hence...being knocked out. Don't matter how scared or angry you are, if you get hit hard enough to get knocked out, then you're knocked out.

Originally posted by who?-kid
100 tons => 150 billion tons !! in a few seconds, without being real mad ? Becoming millions of times stronger just like THAT ?

We’re not talking about 120 tons, or 150 tons, or 200 or even 500 tons. We’re talking about [b]150 billion tons !! Well, that’s a classic example of what I call “bad writing”. It should never have happened.[/B]

You don't really get the full effect of this when you use abbreviations. So here:

1 ton = 2,000 pounds(lbs) This is equal to a small 4x4 vehicle.

100 tons = 200,000 lbs This is a large size construction vehicle.

200 tons = 400,000 lbs This is a 2 level apartment building.

500 tons = 1,000,000 lbs Well, i dont know anything that weighs one million pounds. A skyscraper?

150 billion tons = Well, my calculator just got a big E on it, but done on paper, it equals 300,000,000,000,000 lbs. 3 hundred TRILLION pounds.

WHo Kid, whats the deal man, ur being very opinionative about lots of this stuff...if someone had not read the issues ur talking about they would probably agree with ur ideas...however, it has been stated on more than one occasion that the adrenaline released from Hulk's adrenal glands when he becomes enraged is the source of his strength increase...im pretty sure this may even be mentioned in the marvel hand book, but Reed Richards, The Leader, and Doc Sampson have all mentioned this anyway...everything that happens in the body is caused by some kind of chemical enzyme or catalyst....to say the madder Hulk gets the stronger he gets is just saying it very simply...so to say this particular strength increase was due to the fear induced by seeing a mountain range that "drawfed the Andes" about to drop on the Hulk and his buddies, would be a logical explanation...fear releases adrenaline too...this is a science based power...not supernatural, to say that Hulk's strength increases from the emotion of anger and just because would be supernatural..like juggernauts powers...the only supernatural power the Hulk possesses is the power to always navigate his way back to his place of birth, the first gamma bomb site...next, why is Hulk being able to lift 150 billion tons out of character, if anyone in the marvel universe could do it then the Hulk could...when have u ever seen the Hulk not strong enough to do something, have his muscles ever given out?...lost his grip? has ever not been strong enough for a task?...i can find examples of ever other power house not being strong enough to do something....however, Hulk never has, except back in the day when he proved to not be as strong as creature called the GLOB...but i doubt ur familiar...thus, in my opinion, i would say it would be out of character for the Hulk NOT to be strong enough to carry that mountain...for u to say that the Hulk should only have been able to lift 100 tons at that point is pure bullshit, because no one has ever said that the Hulk starts at 100...some directories say it, but there is no comic book proof of this, and it is only some people opinion...but i think anyone who says that should read more hulk comics...Hulk is not like the Thing or Thor or Herculese, he will never be displayed as not being strong enough or being over powered...

...thats because it is the Hulk's role in the marvel universe to be the strongest there is....additionally, what was that stuff u propagated about the Hulk getting his ass kicked by onslaught and Thor, he traded some massive blows with onslaught.....onslought was certainly not rulling anything....onsought held him down for a moment, then the Hulk broke free and hit him hard enough to shatter his physical form...and as for his battle with Thor, it definitely wasnt a decisive victory for Thor, the Hulk had been fighting for several issues straight, and Thor was not fighting by himself, nor did he do anythig that could be considered a victory and the hulk certainly didnt bow down to anything

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
You don't really get the full effect of this when you use abbreviations. So here:

1 ton = 2,000 pounds(lbs) This is equal to a small 4x4 vehicle.

100 tons = 200,000 lbs This is a large size construction vehicle.

200 tons = 400,000 lbs This is a 2 level apartment building.

500 tons = 1,000,000 lbs Well, i dont know anything that weighs one million pounds. A skyscraper?

150 billion tons = Well, my calculator just got a big E on it, but done on paper, it equals 300,000,000,000,000 lbs. 3 hundred TRILLION pounds.

Wow... well, I'm much too lazy to take my calculator...

But thanks to your effort - mind you, you do not have to agree with me about the strength level of Hulk - we all can see how insanely heavy 150 billion tons really is.

and another thing, the 150 billion tons was not the first crazy feat of strength performed by the Hulk, just the most mentioned...in many of his old issues he done lots of crazy shit, like leaping into outer space, or pulling 100 million tons of lumber cross country...anyway...that is not the point of this thread, the subject is Jugs or Hulk...I posted pleny of reason in my last 3 posts, why Hulk is the strongest, and Jugs is not at all ultimately unstoppable or invulnerable...I say the Hulk decisively wins...just like he has in each of their encounters

Originally posted by Wynndar
WHo Kid, whats the deal man, ur being very opinionative about lots of this stuff...

Well, that's the whole idea of a forum 😉.

...however, it has been stated on more than one occasion that the adrenaline released from Hulk's adrenal glands when he becomes enraged is the source of his strength increase...im pretty sure this may even be mentioned in the marvel hand book, but Reed Richards, The Leader, and Doc Sampson have all mentioned this anyway...

everything that happens in the body is caused by some kind of chemical enzyme or catalyst....to say the madder Hulk gets the stronger he gets is just saying it very simply...

...next, why is Hulk being able to lift 150 billion tons out of character, if anyone in the marvel universe could do it then the Hulk could...

One thing: a picture of Hulk lifting the mountain and getting angry and shouting at Reed Richards obviously doesn't count, because he was lifting the mountain from the beginning, before he got mad at Richards. In my opinion, he couldn't have done that.

however, Hulk never has, except back in the day when he proved to not be as strong as creature called the GLOB...but i doubt ur familiar...

thus, in my opinion, i would say it would be out of character for Hulk NOT to be strong enough to carry that mountain...for u to say that the Hulk should only have been able to lift 100 tons at that point is pure bullshit, because no one has ever said that the Hulk starts at 100
...some directories say it, but there is no comic book proof of this, and it is only some people opinion...

But if you disagree, you disagree with lots of people. And what do YOU think his starting level is ? And whatever it is according to you, it is only your opinion, nothing more.

Like I said, the 100-tons thing is generally accepted.

Back to topic :

Juggernaut has his nigh invulnerability, and Hulk has the potential to be much stronger...

I do not know who will win a fight : it entirely depends on who you like most.

Originally posted by who?-kid
A non enraged Hulk, a relatively calm Hulk being, out of the blue, able to carry 150 billion tons, where he normally should carry let’s say 100 tons, that is “out of character”.

Let me post this from his bio and see if you catch it (yes, it responds directly to your query about him being "relatively calm"😉.

"During times of >>>>>>>>>>high stress<<<<<<<<<<<< or anger, an increase in adrenaline causes the Hulk's strength to increase dramatically."

Do you see it now? Do you see now why a "relatively calm" (BUT STRESSED) Hulk can do it?

And when our green friend gets truly mad, Onslaught still manages to kick his ass rather easily. A Hulk that can lift 150 billion tons in a rather calm state, should be able to fart Onslaught away when he's really angry. But Onslaught ruled during that fight (except for the “final” punch of Hulk, and some people – including me – claim that this was the intention of Onslaught, but that’s a different something).

Not understanding this at all...rife with incongruities.

One, when did Onslaught "kick Hulk's ass?" I have the comic book right here. Never happened. Speaking of hyperbole...

"Onslaught ruled?" Huh!? They went back and forth, shattering windows. Hold up lemme crack this open. Yeah - you are definitely exaggerating. First panel, Hulk hits Onslaught causing him to say "Hnngh!" Second panel shows them meeting each other (grappling, perhaps). Third panel Onslaught hits Hulk with what appears to be an uppercut. Hulk didn't budge. Fourth panel, Hulk hits Onslaught with a right cross. Subsequent panels show Onslaught connecting with a left, then double-fisted uppercut. The next punch thrown is Hulk's, which shatters his armor.

Gentlemen...Hulk hit Onslaught three times (visibly), Onslaught hit Hulk three times.

And Onslaught ruled that fight. *shrug* Okay.

Two, if Hulk was not as (we'll say "angry" considering that is the word we are discussing) "angry" then, why should he be able to lift 150 billion tons? Real life question. How much can you bench press? Okay...now if your LIFE was on the line (better yet, your mother's) - how much could you bench press?

Was Hulk mad while fighting Thor ? O man, he was furious !! And mean !!He should have been almost limitless strong !! Did he beat Thor ? Nope. Very good fight, granted, but in the end, the Hulk had to bow for the power of Mjolnir and Thor.

Whoa, you must have read an entirely different #300. Hulk did not "bow" to jack. You have to be kidding me? They traded blows. Then Hulk went flying into the statue (adamantium). Hulk picked it up. Thor threw Mjolnir, creating that reverberating noise. All covered their ears.

And Hulk BOWED to Thor? *shrug* Okay.

There ARE other examples…

I have all day....

No. Show me where you can say he was scared or mad during that scene in Secret Wars, and I will argue no more.

Let me hover a mountain range that dwarfs the Andes over YOUR head and "courageous" is NOT the word that will describe you.

Then let it drop.

Originally posted by Wynndar
hahaha....yea Never, even the Skrull Empire who deal with the Gladiator on a regular basis regard the Hulk as the Earth's mightiest mortal...the Skrull Empire!....ah and Odin refered to him with the same epithet back in one of Hulk and Thor's first battles....so its not just the Hulk saying this stuff...Juggernaut fan, u sound a little less fanatical and more logical when u talk about jugs these days, thats good....but i think ur over doing it when u make so many conclusions about Jugs' powers...like i said earlier, Nightcrawler threw a torch at his face back in the issue i quoted earlier, uncanny x-men #102...and he screamed "you hurt me"...also have u ever read new warriors issue#12...he gets fried by a weakened force field that probably would have killed him if at full power...he screams, "AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHH", falls to his knees, then on his face, momentarily unconscious...then he gets up, can barely speak, and has burns all over his back....later that issue a Thor-like Egytian God, knocks him on his ass with an extra huge lightning bolt, and then they prove to be equal as they trade punches...neither of these two examples support your THEORY.....yes very shaky THEORY that Jugs can take as much punishment as the reality around him or that he is unstoppable....like i said before the gym is not all powerful, it just has a threshold where if enough physical punishment is delivered, Jugs can be hurt and stopped

how am i overdoing it? from the day juggernaut was thought of and put into comics, to the day he met onslaught *sigh* he was a very consistant character. yes, somehow onslaught did what nobody else could do. he defeated juggernaut. hulk had not did that, thor had not did that. atleast without depowering juggernaut. all my original arguement was, that hulk isn't as strong as juggernaut innitially. still nobody has proved me wrong......... so hulk lifted 150 billion tons? how can you directly compare that to juggernauts strength??? like i said, in thier first encounter hulk had been RAGING FOR HOURS. plenty of time to build up his strenght vs how much time he had to build up his strength under the mountain range. he was said to be "on the virge of insanity" with rage. yet he still proved incapable of overpowering juggernaut. THAT doesn't support ANYBODIES THEORY that hulk is stronger at base levels....... he just isn't. in my opinion of coarse. if we are debating current juggernaut, yes hulk would win, but classic juggernaut, i'm still voting for him. he did to thor what hulk had never proved capable of doing. he overpowered him, in nearly every encounter they have had. other than that, the only clear cut victory that hulk has over juggernaut is at best 50/50. hulk 404, and 457. one because he was amped up. i have nothing more to offer on this subject. we all have our opinions, and will have to agree to disagree on the matter.

will some body explain to me who the Globs are.

Originally posted by JuggernautFan yes, somehow onslaught did what nobody else could do. he defeated juggernaut. hulk had not did that, thor had not did that.

Goodness, yet you say later in the thread:

the only clear cut victory that hulk has over juggernaut is at best 50/50. hulk 404, and 457. one because he was amped up.

So...did he defeat him or did he not defeat him? And Thor never defeated Juggernaut? Thor can defeat Juggernaut each and every single time he fights him, IN THEORY. Will writers do that? No.

Re: Hulk not being stronger at base levels, PROVE that he is not? NOBODY HERE can. NOBODY. At best you offer conjecture.

all my original arguement was, that hulk isn't as strong as juggernaut innitially.

We have to "prove" you wrong when you never "proved" you were correct?

i said, in thier first encounter hulk had been RAGING FOR HOURS.

"Prove it." In addition, is there any mathematical equation that demonstrates/explains the proportion of Hulk's strength to his anger or stress levels?

he was said to be "on the virge of insanity" with rage. yet he still proved incapable of overpowering juggernaut.

In what issue was this, please? And is that a direct quote?

Originally posted by Never
"Prove it." In addition, is there any mathematical equation that demonstrates/explains the proportion of Hulk's strength to his anger or stress levels?

There should be. That would make these arguments so much easier.

this argument is dumb...it just depends on whoever the hell the writer wants to win