Juggernaut or The Hulk?

"Don't be stupid. Of course they count. Many of the Marvel victories are won or determined because their opponents were either knocked unconscious or couldn't fight on. Other than death, how else would you determine the victor of a battle in a comic book?"

Retreat and yielding to the enemy are two very common ones.

"No, you scrap it. Whether you like it or not, the Juggernaut has a level of invincibility. Granted he's not completely invincible, but he does have a degree of invincibility."

So he has a degree of not ever being able to be killed? Which is, of course, the meaning of the word invincible. No he doesn't, he is not INVINCIBLE in anyway. Invulnerable, yes. Invincible, no.

"rrelevant. Obviously, you're not comprehending. The whole point of my statement was not about who won or got beaten most recently. My point is that the Hulk has been rendered unconscious by opponents that aren't on the same level of invincibility as the Juggernaut."

Debate rule 1: Don't bring stuff up then render it irrelevant when countered.

"Again, you're missing the point. Time and time again, I've stated that the Hulk has NEVER physically knocked the Juggernaut out or rendered him unconscious. The Hulk knocking the Juggernaut out in a non-physical manner is completely and totally irrelevant. The Hulk is not a natural telepath, nor does he have psionic or mystical powers (all of which are the Juggernaut's weaknesses)."

I never said he's physically knocked him out. He has knocked out Juggernaut and multiple other people at the same time with a psionically resistant backlash, built on his own.

"The Hulk can't even physically knock out the Juggernaut. How is he going to win a straight up fight between the two?"

If you are still asking me how I believe this, 111 pages into the thread. Maybe you better leave. If you don't have the patience to go and read, I don't have the patience to retype the pages I have typed out before.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

So he has a degree of not ever being able to be killed? Which is, of course, the meaning of the word invincible. No he doesn't, he is not INVINCIBLE in anyway. Invulnerable, yes. Invincible, no.

You really need to look up your definition of invincibility.

Definition of invincibility

Invincibility has NOTHING to do with death. Obviously you don't know the difference between invincible and immortal

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Debate rule 1: Don't bring stuff up then render it irrelevant when countered.

No, you brought up stuff about who most recently won or was defeated. THAT's irrelevant. I brought up stuff about opponents on a lower level than the Juggernaut who've knocked the Hulk out in the past.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I never said he's physically knocked him out. He has knocked out Juggernaut and multiple other people at the same time with a psionically resistant backlash, built on his own.

Psionic powers are irrelevant. The Hulk is not going to go into a battle with the Juggernaut and use psionic powers or attack the Juggernaut telepathically. And I stated time and time again that the Hulk has never PHYSICALLY knocked the Juggernaut out. Read my past posts. Maybe you should have the patience to read other people's posts more closely next time, because you're obviously not comprehending any of them.

"Invincibility has NOTHING to do with death. Obviously you don't know the difference between invincible and immortal"

Firstly, it does refer to death seeing as death can indeed, overcome someone. Secondly however, I'll indulge you. Let us assume invincibility IS purely about being beaten. "Undefeatable and unable to be overcome" right? Well........Juggernaut isn't that either. Coz there are things in existance that have beaten him, people who have beaten him. Regardless of circumstance, he is neither immortal, unstoppable, or invincible. Invulnerable is the only one that applies.

"Psionic powers are irrelevant. The Hulk is not going to go into a battle with the Juggernaut and use psionic powers or attack the Juggernaut telepathically. And I stated time and time again that the Hulk has never PHYSICALLY knocked the Juggernaut out. Read my past posts. Maybe you should have the patience to read other people's posts more closely next time, because you're obviously not comprehending any of them."

Despite the fact that I agreed with you when I said "I never claimed Hulk had physically knocked him out" you still choose to say I'm ignoring you? I read everyone's posts clearly. If they change the meaning however, makes it a bit tough. Psionic powers are not irrelevant. Maybe Hulk wouldn't use them, who said he would? I never said that. I said he HAS, on Juggernaut. Historically it happened.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

"Invincibility has NOTHING to do with death. Obviously you don't know the difference between invincible and immortal"

Firstly, it does refer to death seeing as death can indeed, overcome someone.

Please. You're really reaching now. Put whatever spin on it you want, but you were incorrect on your understanding of the term invincible.

Plus, I never said that the Juggernaut is completely invincible Read my post again. I said that he has a level of invincibility. Again, you're either not reading closely enough or not comprehending.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Despite the fact that I agreed with you when I said "I never claimed Hulk had physically knocked him out" you still choose to say I'm ignoring you? I read everyone's posts clearly. If they change the meaning however, makes it a bit tough. Psionic powers are not irrelevant. Maybe Hulk wouldn't use them, who said he would? I never said that. I said he HAS, on Juggernaut. Historically it happened.

-AC

I never said that it didn't happen.

I said that psionic powers are irrelevant in a fight between the Hulk and the Juggernaut simply because the Hulk doesn't naturally have psionic powers and is not going to use telepathic or psionic powers on an opponent.

The first thing I think of when I hear "The Hulk" is not telepath or psionic powers. I think about raw, brute strength and physical force.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Someone has described his suit as armour before hand, multiple times.

Never heard of fabric armour. But that's just me, maybe it is armour maybe it's fabric. Either way, was just a point.

It flexes with him but is supposed to be as durable or near as durable as he is. Magic doesn't need to make sense.

"Please. You're really reaching now. Put whatever spin on it you want, but you were incorrect on your understanding of the term invincible."

Hahaha, reaching all of a sudden equates to being correct then? Death can overcome someone, unless you've noticed. It says "Unable to be overcome." It doesn't say "Unable to be overcome except by Death".

"I said that he has a level of invincibility. Again, you're either not reading closely enough or not comprehending."

Yes but by definition you cannot be a bit undefeatable. Which is what you are implying he is, by claiming he has a level of invincibility. He has none because he is defeatable and killable. Invulnerable, is what he can claim to be.

"The first thing I think of when I hear "The Hulk" is not telepath or psionic powers. I think about raw, brute strength and physical force."

The first thing I think about with Juggernaut is strength and invulnerability. That doesn't stop you dusting the cobwebs off each and every fantastical and sensationalistic Juggernaut moment and acting as if he strolls around tearing holes in universes though does it?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Hahaha, reaching all of a sudden equates to being correct then? Death can overcome someone, unless you've noticed. It says "Unable to be overcome." It doesn't say "Unable to be overcome except by Death".

Reaching means reaching. Do you want me to post a link to the definition of that word too? I never said that you were correct. In fact your other post showed that you completely misconstrued the meaning of the term invincible.

Where does it say death anywhere on that page or in the definition? Invincible has to do with being conquered, beaten, subdued, etc.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Death can overcome someone,

Yeah, and so can somebody's bad gas.

What does death have to do with anything? Why are you even bringing death into the equation?

Where did I state that the Juggernaut can't die? Apparently, your misinterpretations of the words invincible and immortal led you to believe that's what I was stating.

But again, misinterpretations and misunderstandings are nothing new to you.

Oh for God's sake.

Invincible, for the fiftieth time, is an absolute term. There ARE no levels of it. You can't be quite invincible, or a bit invincible, or invincible aginast weak people.

You are or you ain't. If people are going to debate dictionary definitions no wonder the thread won't die.

Jeez, everybody but the sticklers know what people mean when they say somebody's more invincible than the other.

Not if dictionaries are being invoked.

"Where did I state that the Juggernaut can't die? Apparently, your misinterpretations of the words invincible and immortal led you to believe that's what I was stating.

But again, misinterpretations and misunderstandings are nothing new to you."

Where did you state that Juggernaut was unable to be killed or unable to die? Maybe not directly but you labelled him invincible, which by the dictionary you read or I read, he is not. He is not undefeatable. He is not partially invincible, regardless of meaning, as you claim he is. You are choosing to not understand me for the sole purpose of boosting your argument.

As mentioned by Vic, it's an absolute term. You ARE invincible totally, or you are not invincible at all. Juggernaut is the latter.

It's that simple.

-AC

Dictionaries have to be invoked when some people don't know the simple difference between immortal and invincible.

"Dictionaries have to be invoked when some people don't know the simple difference between immortal and invincible."

Juggernaut is neither of those. End the diction debate.

-AC

Apparently, you didn't know the simple difference between the two terms.

Diction debate ended.

"Apparently, you didn't know the simple difference between the two terms.

Diction debate ended."

Why is this now about me and the definitions I use? You claimed he's invincible, you then proved that he isn't. You defeated yourself, no need to cry about it. I knew the difference, invincibility, while not under definition, is applicable to death. I gave reason as to why, because it gives reason on the link you sent.

Anyway, this isn't about linguistics or diction. It's about Juggernaut Vs The Hulk.

Let's pick up where we left off which was proving Juggernaut isn't invincible, which we did.

-AC

Originally posted by theflyxx
Dictionaries have to be invoked when some people don't know the simple difference between immortal and invincible.

You quite clearly aren't adhering to your own definition.

'incapable of being overcome or subdued'

Therefore for Juggernaut to be invincible, he would have had to have never been overcome. Is this true?

Let's end the tension. No, no it's not.

I thought it was an interesting point earlier actually, about enough physical force to overcome the level of magic which is resisting physical force.

OH MY FUC*ING GOSH. This thread has gone on for 112 pages. that's a vs. forum record.kewl

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Let's pick up where we left off which was proving Juggernaut isn't invincible, which we did.

I stated that the Hulk has never physically rendered the Juggernaut unconscious or knocked him out. It's a fact that no one can argue or dispute.

You then bring up the Hulk knocking the Juggernaut and other people out telepathically or with psionics. Telepathy and psionics are complete non factors in a battle between the Hulk and the Juggernaut because the Hulk is neither a natural telepath nor psionically powered. Hence, your statement is completely irrelevant in regards to a straight out fight between the Juggernaut and the Hulk.

I stated that the Juggernaut has a level of invincibility. You then jump on somebody else's argument that by definition, someone is either invincible or they aren't and that it's an absolute term. That may apply in real life and by definition, but since when has that ever applied in comic books? Everyone who reads comics knows that there ARE levels of invincibility. The term invincible is used quite frequently to describe many characters, hence the many different levels. All you have to do is look inside a comic book.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
You quite clearly aren't adhering to your own definition.

'incapable of being overcome or subdued'

Therefore for Juggernaut to be invincible, he would have had to have never been overcome. Is this true?

Not by a Hulk who wasn't enhanced by Apocalypse.

As far as definitions and levels of invincibility are concerned, read my above post.