Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Two paragraphs and a sentence and it still doesn't change the fact that Juggernaut is not invincible.

There are no levels. He has been overcome, multiple times.

Now, let's move on.

"Not by a Hulk who wasn't enhanced by Apocalypse."

But.....by other people. Many others. So he has been overcome. You cannot apply the phrase "He is invincible....partially" to anything, let alone THIS ONE fight. The question was, "For Juggernaut to be invincible, he would have had to NOT ever be overcome. Is this true?" The answer is no.

-AC

Moving on....

I'll put it in simple terms so that even you can understand. The Hulk can't even punch out the Juggernaut.

Now you tell me how the Hulk (NOT enhanced by Apocalypse) is going to defeat the Juggernaut in a one-on-one slugfest, when the Juggernaut can't even be physically knocked out by him?

And don't cop out by telling me to read this entire thread for the answer or tell me that the Hulk will win by tossing the Juggernaut into space, burying him under a mountain, etc......

Let me get this right. Because it's very VERY VERY baffling at first glance.

You are coming in here, making claims that are then proven to be false, switch your stance to "But Hulk hasn't knocked Juggernaut out physically" which I already know he hasn't, chicken out of everything you've said because you KNOW you are wrong, then have the NERVE to actually ignore 113 pages of debate just so that you can say I can't prove it? THAT is a cop out.

The fact of the matter is this, I have proved my point over many many pages of this thread, since I joined. My first post was in this thread. You are afraid to go and read because you know that you will just get whooped to the back of the class while the adults talk, just like you've had it done to you right here. That is sad. So if you can't be bothered to participate, I can't be bothered to deal with you. You are completely and utterly ignorant.

-AC

*Clears throat*

Hello, I guess I'm the new guy, but don't let that make you think I don't know what I'm talking about.

*Drinks some water and clears throat again*

Now, I am a huuuuge X-men fan, and Juggernaut happens to be my favorite, but he would not win.

Going by Marvel's strength rating scale of lifting ability measured by tons:

Juggernaut's current level is about 80-90 tons lifted, though he is currently in a weakened state due to the fact that his powers are due only to infused effects of the Gem of Cytoraak, but the Gem is no longer directly supplying magical energies so his strength is weakened.

So, with Hulk easily being at 100 tons range, the current Juggernaut would lose.

Going by their usual levels, Juggernaut is also 100. But, Hulk would still win. Reasons:

Strength: As I'm sure has been said ten-million times, Hulk grows more powerful as he grows angrier. Quickly making him physically stronger than Juggernaut.

Fighting Ability: Juggernaut is sufficient at brawling, but Hulk's whole mind is thrown towards fighting and instinct. If they were both only as powerful as a more normal guy, maybe 150 pounds lifting strength or something, but had the same psyche, Hulk would definitely win.

Agility: I don't know if you heard, but Hulk can leap miles and miles, he is certainly more agile than Juggernaut.

Healing Factor: Hulk has a powerful healing factor, Juggernaut doesn't

Too many people are putting too much into Juggernaut's moniker. He is unstoppable, but not in the way many are saying. What his moniker means is, if Hulk were to try and stop Juggernaut's forward momentum, he would be unable, but that does not mean that Juggernaut can't lose a fight. Hulk would be able to knock Juggernaut out, Juggernaut certainly is not immune to unconciousness.

Juggernaut isn't strong enough, a good enough fighter, or agile enough to win.

"Too many people are putting too much into Juggernaut's moniker. He is unstoppable, but not in the way many are saying. What his moniker means is, if Hulk were to try and stop Juggernaut's forward momentum, he would be unable, but that does not mean that Juggernaut can't lose a fight."

Well, Hulk hasn't tried, loads of people in Marvel haven't actually stood infront of him with the purpose in mind to stop his forward momentum. He just hasn't met anyone who has tried solely for that purpose and succeeded, as of yet no one credible has set out to stop him progressing. It's like playing a game of Street Fighter, winning, then retiring and saying "Undefeated". He just hasn't had his forward momentum challenged by anyone yet. The man strolls around saying "I can't be stopped from walking." But who has actually tried? He is not unstoppable in terms of overall. In terms of forward momentum? He hasn't yet met anyone who has tried and succeeded. Doesn't mean there isn't anyone.

I agree with the rest of your post. One of them will come back with something said before as has most of the stuff in your post been said before, but people are getting out of hand.

-AC

Well, he has stood up to Thor's pure unbridled Odin Force before...

...and he has been lifted in the air VIA telekinesis and remained forward momentum...

...which was one instance where it showed the implications that the Gem of Cytorakk grants him more powers(in this case, flight) than he is, at this point, able to access.

Yeah.

But no known physical force is known to be able to stop his forward momentum completely.

Hulk wouldn't be able to stop him.

But yeah, I suppose we haven't seen him try and walk through Galactus or the Living Tribunal yet, so who knows...

😎

"Hulk wouldn't be able to stop him."

Until he tries, until anyone within reason has tried, you can't really say they can't. Especially someone with limitless strength.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Let me get this right. Because it's very VERY VERY baffling at first glance.

Somehow, you being baffled is no surprise to me whatsoever.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are coming in here, making claims that are then proven to be false,

Which claims do you speak of have been proven false? Tell me.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
switch your stance to "But Hulk hasn't knocked Juggernaut out physically"

That was my original stance. I didn't switch anything. Read my posts.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
chicken out of everything you've said because you KNOW you are wrong,

I've chickened out of nothing. Again, READ my posts. I stand by every statement that I've made. What I DO know is that you've given me no conclusive evidence whatsoever that the Hulk can defeat the Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The fact of the matter is this, I have proved my point over many many pages of this thread, since I joined.

What have you actually proven? You have proven NOTHING. You have provided nothing but baseless assumptions and conjecture. That is why this thread is still alive and people are still wondering who would actually win in a battle between the Hulk and the Juggernaut.

How do I know this? Other than misunderstanding the meaning of the word invincible, you have contributed absolutely nothing to sway my nor anyone else's belief that the Hulk can defeat the Juggernaut in a physical capacity. NOTHING.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
My first post was in this thread.

What, so do you want a cookie?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are afraid to go and read because you know that you will just get whooped to the back of the class while the adults talk, just like you've had it done to you right here. That is sad. So if you can't be bothered to participate, I can't be bothered to deal with you. You are completely and utterly ignorant.

This coming from someone who can't be bothered to read someone else's posts in a coherent manner nor understand a simple, concise point that someone is trying make. You're pathetic.

Juggernaut HAS been stopped before. By War Hulk.

That means he can be stopped. Which means he's not unstoppable.

Not saying that means he'd win or lose a fight against the Hulk. Being unable to have your forward momentum halted isn't all it's cracked up to be in combat.

Also - it's pretty clear that Juggernaut ISN'T unstoppable. He can't fly - gravity stops him. If you deposited him in deep space, he can't walk anywhere - lack of gravity stops him. If he floats into orbit and gets pulled back to earth from space, he can't stop himself from being sucked in - lack of resistence surface stops him. If you set up a reflective inertia wall that reverses your forward momentum and generates a counter force equal to what you're exerting, Juggernaut MUST be stopped, on one end or the other, because it's exact equal force - he's pushing against himself. If it takes him longer to walk through some materials than other, that means that he can be slowed, which means that at high enough levels, he can be stopped. He's only unstoppable within the confines of Cytorakk's power. It, like all things, can be broken, since Cytorrakk is not all-powerful.

There's certainly no doubt about the fact that the Juggernaut has been stopped. Yes, the Juggernaut has been physically stopped before by War Hulk.

Not the original Hulk mind you, but a Hulk who was enhanced by Apocalypse.

The question remains as to whether or not the Hulk (unaided in any physical or psionic capacity) can actually defeat the Juggernaut since he can't even physically knock him out or render him unconscious.

Saying that the Hulk "would be able to" or "should be able to" knock out the Juggernaut isn't good enough. The fact of the matter is that the Hulk hasn't.

The Hulk hasn't yet and no one in this thread has shown me that he can. Thus, I don't believe that the Hulk can defeat the Juggernaut in a physical confrontation.

I can agree with that. I don't think Juggernaut can be physically beaten, so the most any physically-powered foe can do is either remove him from the battlefield or fight forever. I don't necessarily think Juggernaut is a good enough fighter to beat Hulk, either.

That said, if Hulk REALLY has no upper limit to his strength, it's possible that, given time, he can become strong enough to reach his War levels of strength. If that's the case (and I doubt that War is the physically strongest being in the universe), then he can stop Juggernaut. And if one rule can be violated, perhaps they all can and Juggernaut can be beaten.

Or, Hulk and wrestle the helmet off, then sonic clap Juggernaut into submission. Juggy doesn't seem to do well against sonics.

"Or, Hulk and wrestle the helmet off, then sonic clap Juggernaut into submission. Juggy doesn't seem to do well against sonics."

If Angel can fly down and tug his helmet off, I seriously doubt Hulk is gonna have to wrestle the thing off his head.

"There's certainly no doubt about the fact that the Juggernaut has been stopped. Yes, the Juggernaut has been physically stopped before by War Hulk."

I'm not gonna kick a dead corpse by getting drawn into a squabbling debate about who said what with you Fly. You claimed Juggernaut was partially invincible, the only problem I had with that was the fact that you cannot be partially invincible and no matter how many times you try to change the definition, it won't change that.

You said things are different in Comicdom, the term doesn't differ from comics to real life, Junior. They use the English Language on Earth in comics just like the do here. It applies, you were and are wrong. That's all that I have to say about that. I'm not looking for you to accept this, it's clear you won't because you know that deep down you are wrong and admitting it would make you look silly. So I'll just leave you to once again say "You don't understand the term. You're pathetic."

"I've chickened out of nothing. Again, READ my posts. I stand by every statement that I've made. What I DO know is that you've given me no conclusive evidence whatsoever that the Hulk can defeat the Juggernaut."

Funny that, I gave everyone on this thread evidence on why I BELIEVE The Hulk can defeat Juggernaut. You weren't around, sucks for you but that isn't my problem. You are too afraid, lazy or both, to go and read them.

"What have you actually proven? You have proven NOTHING. You have provided nothing but baseless assumptions and conjecture. That is why this thread is still alive and people are still wondering who would actually win in a battle between the Hulk and the Juggernaut. How do I know this? Other than misunderstanding the meaning of the word invincible, you have contributed absolutely nothing to sway my nor anyone else's belief that the Hulk can defeat the Juggernaut in a physical capacity. NOTHING."

Read the thread then come back to me. I can get people into this thread to tell you how substantial of a contributor I have been to this entire thread. It only came back to life when I recently came back and started replying to people again (Tron the moderator of this forum can actually attest to it).

Don't be a hypocrite, ask me to read what you say and then say that you're not actually gonna take the time to go back and read the thread. Most CERTAINLY do not accuse me of proving nothing when you haven't even been in this thread for as long as I have.

"What, so do you want a cookie?"

Typical childish babble. Posting irrelevantly just to make yourself seem good. It's not cool, it's not respectable, quit it.

"This coming from someone who can't be bothered to read someone else's posts "

You accused me of that, now let me show you what you said earlier:

"And don't cop out by telling me to read this entire thread for the answer "

Hmm? HMM? If you can't be bothered to read a thread in which you are debating, why should I be bothered to repost the pages of debate material that I had posted earlier, to you? I don't need to prove anything, I'm not the newbie to this debate thread. You should be proving stuff to me if proving things is what you're about, which so far, you are not.

"Saying that the Hulk "would be able to" or "should be able to" knock out the Juggernaut isn't good enough. The fact of the matter is that the Hulk hasn't."

Yes but this all revolves around the fact that to you a fight is won via a knockout. It's Marvel, they don't meet up in a ring with Mills Lane and fight to a count, kid.

"The Hulk hasn't yet and no one in this thread has shown me that he can. Thus, I don't believe that the Hulk can defeat the Juggernaut in a physical confrontation."

This one interests me. "No one in this thread has shown me he can." You also claim that I have contributed and proven nothing. Which begs the question, how much of this thread have you actually bothered to read? Coz if you did, you would know that I've contributed alot more to this thread than most people, let alone you. You would also know that whether you agree with it or not, me and others have produced substantial evidence FOR Hulk.

It all comes down to laziness and inability to accept things for you.

You will obviously reply to this in some kind of a childish manner but before you do I request this:

READ THE THREAD or at LEAST a bulk of it. Because without doing so, you are being rude, pig headed and obnoxious for making claims toward me and other posters in this thread that are untrue.

"...And on the 113th page, AC owned the ignorant poster.", I believe is the next verse.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You claimed Juggernaut was partially invincible, the only problem I had with that was the fact that you cannot be partially invincible and no matter how many times you try to change the definition, it won't change that. The term doesn't differ from comics to real life, they use the English Language on Earth in comics just like the do here. It applies, you were and are wrong. That's all that I have to say about that.

First off, let me clarify something for you. I stated that the Juggernaut has a level of invincibility. I have NEVER stated that he is completely invincible. For the umpteenth time, READ my posts more closely. Secondly, I stated that "levels" of invincibility don't apply in real life or by definition, but they DO apply in comics. Superman is invincible......until someone exposes him to Kryptonite. Colossus is invincible.......until he encounters somebody stronger than him (ie. the Hulk). Iron Man is invincible.......until somebody shows up with an EMP device. It happens ALL the time. Again, my point is not that the Juggernaut is completely and totally invincible. I said that he has a level of invincibility. Whether or not you don't want to believe it, I really couldn't care less. It's shown time and time again in comics.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I gave everyone on this thread evidence on why I believe The Hulk can defeat Juggernaut. You weren't around, sucks for you but that isn't my problem. You are to afraid, lazy or both, to go and read them.

The funny thing is that before I posted my most recent messages, I did read your posts......and I wasn't impressed......at all.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Read the thread then come back to me.

See above.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's not cool, it's not respectable, quit it.

Geez, no need to cry now. No feelings were meant to be harmed.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"This coming from someone who can't be bothered to read someone else's posts "

You accused me of that, now let me show you what you said earlier:

"And don't cop out by telling me to read this entire thread for the answer "

Hmm? HMM? If you can't be bothered to read a thread in which you are debating, why should I be bothered to repost the pages of debate material that I had posted earlier, to you?

As I stated earlier, I have read your posts. Telling me to go "read the thread and all of my past posts" in response to me figuratively questioning how could the Hulk defeat the Juggernaut in a physical confrontation after what I stated is a cop out and a display of laziness on YOUR part.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes but this all revolves around the fact that to you a fight is won via a knockout. It's Marvel, they don't meet up in a ring with Mills Lane and fight to a count.

OK, then you tell me exactly how either the Hulk or the Juggernaut would have a decisive victory if one of them wasn't rendered unconscious or killed. Someone running away or being tossed into space isn't acceptable in a battle of this magnitude. It's lame and ridiculous to say that the Hulk or the Juggernaut would win because their opponent would end up fleeing.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This one interests me. "No one in this thread has shown me he can." You also claim that I have contributed and proven nothing. Which begs the question, how much of this thread have you actually bothered to read? Coz if you did, you would know that I've contributed alot more to this thread than most people, let alone you and also that whether you agree with it or not, me and others have produced substantial evidence FOR Hulk.

For the third time, I HAVE read your numerous posts. I said it before and I'll say it again. You have provided nothing but baseless assumptions and conjecture. You've provided me with absolutely nothing to sway my opinion. At the rate things are going, I don't think that will ever change.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You will obviously reply to this in some kind of a childish manner.........you are being rude, pig headed and obnoxious for making claims toward me and other posters in this thread that are untrue.

Again, what have I claimed was untrue? Calling me rude, pig headed, obnoxious, ignorant, lazy, and lastly, childish will get you nowhere nor will it help cement your argument that the Hulk can physically defeat the Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri "...And on the 113th page, AC owned the ignorant poster.", I believe is the next verse.

The only things you own around here are ignorance, a misconception of your true value to this thread, and the inability to comprehend.

"First off, let me clarify something for you. I stated that the Juggernaut has a level of invincibility. I have NEVER stated that he is completely invincible. For the umpteenth time, READ my posts more closely. Secondly, I stated that "levels" of invincibility don't apply in real life or by definition, but they DO apply in comics. Superman is invincible......until someone exposes him to Kryptonite."

Astounding levels of incompetence, that's no insult. I believe it to be fact. I actually wrote that you called him partly invincible, I NEVER claimed that you called him completely invincible. YOU need to read the posts. Now read this VERY VERY carefully:

YOU CANNOT....still with me?....Cannot, be invincible until someone "brings along kryptonite" or something stupid like that. It's like saying "Superman is unbeatable, undefeatable...oh, until you bring along Kryptonite. Then he's beatable." That would mean he is beatable overall. There is no if's and's or but's about it. If there are ways for the characters to be beaten, they are not invincible. You just essentially said "He's beatable until he's beaten." ESSENTIALLY, I'm not saying you actually typed that.

"Iron Man is invincible.......until somebody shows up with an EMP device."

No he's not, Jesus Christ. He has be defeated without the use of an EMP device. This isn't about ANYONE ELSE except Hulk and Juggernaut. So I'm gonna wrap all this invincibility BS up in one go.

Invincible: Unable to be overcome, subdued or defeated.

Juggernaut is able to be defeated, overcome and subdued. He is not invincible to any degree because for him to be, one or all of those would have to apply. They do not.

"The funny thing is that before I posted my most recent messages, I did read your posts......and I wasn't impressed......at all."

That's fair enough if you did actually read them. However, I'm not here to impress you. Second, why did you keep up this whole pointless facade of "You haven't ever contributed", "I'm not gonna read your posts"? Talk about attention and argument seeking. You are, without a doubt, lying somewhere in your posts.

"Geez, no need to cry now. No feelings were meant to be harmed."

No feelings were. I'm just saying to you that picking out things just to make a pointless insult, inaffective or not, isn't cool and it isn't respectable. It's also childish and not needed. Why do it?

"As I stated earlier, I have read your posts. Telling me to go "read the thread and all of my past posts" in response to me figuratively questioning how could the Hulk defeat the Juggernaut in a physical confrontation after what I stated is a cop out and a display of laziness on YOUR part."

Given that I have actually taken the effort to post many pages of theories on why Hulk would win this battle, to me, proves that I am not lazy when this thread is concerned. I asked and suggested to you, when you had previously claimed that I had posted nothing, to go and read my posts. You chose to say "I'm not gonna" or something to that effect. I made the posts, you couldn't be bothered to read them. That's laziness.

Also, you said you already read my posts early on. Why then did you claim you hadn't? Why did you claim I hadn't contributed if you were perfectly aware that I had? Further more, if you had read them and weren't impressed, why would you request that I post them again? Looking for an argument? Pointless attempt to gain credability for yourself?

Oh, might wanna catch that. "Catch what?" I hear you ask. I refer to, of course, your whole facade, debate and argument. Which is consequentially plummeting toward Earth at a rapid rate.

"Someone running away or being tossed into space isn't acceptable in a battle of this magnitude."

I agree on the Space thing, it's used too often and it sucks. Why is retreat unacceptable though? If Hulk ran away, you would be saying "Juggernaut Wins" in a second.

"You have provided nothing but baseless assumptions and conjecture. You've provided me with absolutely nothing to sway my opinion. At the rate things are going, I don't think that will ever change."

I have provided opinion and fact combination to prove why I THINK that Hulk would win. Opponents or allies of mine in this debate can vouch for me on that. KillAll, one of the people (if not the only person) to actually go the distance with me on this thread in terms of dedication, even admitted that the things I am saying are undeniable because all I've ever tried to prove is why I THINK Hulk would win. I've never stated anything as fact unless it was fact.

As for me not swaying you, changing your opinion or having you be impressed with me, I don't think it'll lose me any sleep given that I am one of the most known, respected and renown debaters on KMC forums.

You not giving me the A-OK isn't something that'll give me nightmares champ, sorry to disappoint you.

"Again, what have I claimed was untrue?"

Go and look at every assumption you ever made about the points I am making. I'm not even gonna go back to you claim of invincibility got that has fallen into so many pieces already. Though I trust you're already there with a tube of superglue trying to piece it together.

"Calling me rude, pig headed, obnoxious, ignorant, lazy, and lastly, childish will get you nowhere nor will it help cement your argument that the Hulk can physically defeat the Juggernaut."

I didn't intend it to get me anywhere nor did I state it would give me "help". I'm just stating the opinion of how you are making yourself look.

"The only things you own around here are ignorance, a misconception of your true value to this thread, and the inability to comprehend."

Misconception of my value to this thread? Well when I've been part of this thread since the pages were in early double digits, then from that point on I posted page after page after page of replies to questions and debates, only missing the thread due to my departure from the forum for personal reasons, THEN to return, find this thread on the 2nd page (not even the main page), reply and get the whole thing going again, I think it's pretty undeniable that I have been and will continue to be a cornerstone of this thread. Not saying I'm the only one, but I am sure as hell one of them.

Don't be upset just because you strolled in with your hopes held high and I sent you packing with a pocket full of dreams. I respect your right to an opinion and to express that opinion. However if you come at me and try to tell me what I say and what I perceive, you're not gonna get anything but nothing.

-AC

One other thing I'd like to add, coz I don't want THIS post to get overshadowed for it is quite imperative.

You claim to have read the thread and NOBODY gave you substantial evidence as to why Hulk would win this fight, correct? Well either you are lying or you are ignorant.

In the early pages of this thread, well into the time I joined, this was a Hulk thread. Almost everyone who posted, voted or backed Hulk and gave very very good reason as to why. It was almost a laughed at pairing, Hulk Vs Juggernaut. The only pro-Jugg post you got was "Yeah he has the invulnerability going for him, but besides that....". It was all a forgone conclusion that this was Hulk's fight until KillAll (conveniently named JuggernautFan back then) and Unstoppable (A Juggernaut Fan) came in with claims of bad writing and pulling "Feats" out of their asses time and time again in slightly change but ever so largely lengthened overtones.

Never, Wynndar, Who-Kid, Myself, Victor and Arachnoid all backed Hulk. VenomFan swayed both ways because he was unsure. All it was, was the people stated above, posting fact after fact after fact. Then KillAll and Unstoppable posting essay after essay of the same BS claims.

This thread, as time has gone on, lives up to it's chinese whispers theory. The Juggernaut fans have pulled everything from invincibility, to immortality to continuity to bad writing out of their asses in an attempt to prolong the thread and convince everyone that Juggernaut had a chance. It shouldn't have worked but due to the sheer LENGTH of some people's posts, it worked on the weaker minds.

Oh and this famous quote:

"Onslaught is a psion. He did take Juggernaut's helmet off. However the attack that sent him all the way across the United States of America and left him crying at the feet of Psylocke outside Xavier's mansion, was a physical backhand."

And we all know, or we should, that a back hand from anyone does not affect the mind so the fact that Onslaught was a psion is irrelevant. If we look back, Juggernaut was drifting in and out of consciousness as a result. While this has nothing to do with Onslaught, it pretty much erases the old claim of "Can't be knocked out physically".

I tell you something, because that might not make it clear cut.

If Juggernaut can be knocked across the USA with a backhand by Onslaught and left SCARED to death, Hulk can do a hell of a lot more.

Obviously this will spawn about a million more replies from the Jugganites as it always does in an attempt for survival. I know what everyone else knew before the Chinese Whispers began.

Hulk, if he chose to, could pimp Juggernaut on a street corner.

-AC

Originally posted by Tough Guy
tron all im saying is the possibility is out there for a physical force to be too strong for cttorak to protect juggie, hence how hulk could be written to win and still have both characters within their respected boundries. there is no argument to that possibility.

And we have a difference in opinion here. Now Hulk has the potential to do some crazy things, but I don't see "breaking Cyttorak's enchantment as one of them, especially against someone who's taken the full blast of Thor's godforce, Stellaris's Celestial Armor, along with his durability still being very damn high even after being stripped of most of his power.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, the pic I saw Swanky was Juggernaut as an actual skeleton.

I don't see how KillAll and Dragon's debate from way earlier of "Juggernaut's skin cannot be harmed" blah blah blah, still stand considering that he had it all burned away.

Conceivably his armour is the same metal as his helmet, so why did the helmet stay there?

Now, I openly admit that the Skeleton thing is in continuity coz it was published. However, doesn't anyone find it....I dunno.....slightly ridiculous?

Hulk can't hold up a mountain yet Juggernaut can walk around like a "Jason and the Argonauts" extra.

I find that weird.

-AC

Well, seeing as how D'Spayre took most of his power before removing his flesh by "mystical" means, KillAll and Dragon's debate still pretty much stands. And his armor and helmet are two different materials, but I thought you knew that.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I NEVER claimed that you called him completely invincible.

First you mistakenly thought that I claimed that he couldn't die or be killed. Then you've gone on and on about how the Juggernaut isn't completely invincible before realizing that wasn't what I specifically said in the first place.

Quit preaching to the choir. I know that the Juggernaut is not invincible. As I stated before, what the Juggernaut does have is a level of invincibility and in the world of comics, there ARE levels of invincibility, whether you'd like to admit it or not. It's a fact. Pick up a comic book. Read my last post again very closely for more detail.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Invincible: Unable to be overcome, subdued or defeated.

Juggernaut is able to be defeated, overcome and subdued. He is not invincible to any degree because for him to be, one or all of those would have to apply. They do not.

You can go and say that you're either invincible or you're not and that there are no shades of gray. By that same token you can say that a comic book character is either dead or he isn't. And we all KNOW that there are comic book characters that have died in the past have been brought back. In the world of comic books, it's never a matter of "either you are or you aren't" and it never has been. Nothing is completely black or white.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You just essentially said "He's beatable until he's beaten." ESSENTIALLY, I'm not saying you actually typed that.

Nope. Don't tell me what I'm "essentially" saying when you still don't undertstand what I'm saying at all. I didn't "essentially" say that nor did I type it. You couldn't be more wrong about what I'm trying to convey. Again, you STILL don't comprehend my explanation of invincibility and its levels as it relates to the comic book world.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

"Iron Man is invincible.......until somebody shows up with an EMP device."

No he's not, Jesus Christ. He has be defeated without the use of an EMP device. This isn't about ANYONE ELSE except Hulk and Juggernaut.

Hey, somebody give Captain Obvious a pat on the back!

I was using an EMP as an example of how IM could be taken out, not the end all, be all device that could only defeat him.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Invincible: Unable to be overcome, subdued or defeated.

That's fair enough if you did actually read them. However, I'm not here to impress you. Second, why did you keep up this whole pointless facade of "You haven't ever contributed", "I'm not gonna read your posts"?

Firstly, I never put up a facade. Secondly, when have I ever said that I never read your posts or that I'm not going to read them? Why would I even say that your posts are baseless assumptions and that you've contributed nothing if I've never read them? I made those statements after reading your posts. And I still stick by them.

No, you're not here to impress me. And your posts didn't contain anything impressive enough to convince me or to sway my opinion.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Given that I have actually taken the effort to post many pages of theories on why Hulk would win this battle, to me, proves that I am not lazy when this thread is concerned. I asked and suggested to you, when you had previously claimed that I had posted nothing, to go and read my posts. You chose to say "I'm not gonna" or something to that effect. I made the posts, you couldn't be bothered to read them. That's laziness.

Where did I say that "I'm not gonna" read your posts? Another misinterpretation on your part, hmm?

After I made my points, I figuratively questioned how the Hulk could defeat the Juggernaut if he couldn't even knock him out. You're reply was "read this entire thread".

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Also, you said you already read my posts early on. Why then did you claim you hadn't?

Please do tell me where I claimed that I hadn't read your posts. I'm very interested in seeing that. I did nothing of the sort.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why did you claim I hadn't contributed if you were perfectly aware that I had? Further more, if you had read them and weren't impressed, why would you request that I post them again?

I never said that you didn't contribute anything. You have alot of posts in this thread. I stated that you have contributed nothing in this thread that has convinced me that the Hulk can defeat the Juggernaut. Also, I never requested that you post them again. Here are the exact quotes.....

Originally posted by theflyxx

The Hulk is not going to use those powers in an encounter with the Juggernaut. The Hulk is going to come at the Juggernaut with physical force. The Hulk can't even physically knock out the Juggernaut. How is he going to win a straight up fight between the two?

To which you replied....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

"The Hulk can't even physically knock out the Juggernaut. How is he going to win a straight up fight between the two?"

If you are still asking me how I believe this, 111 pages into the thread. Maybe you better leave. If you don't have the patience to go and read, I don't have the patience to retype the pages I have typed out before.

Again, I figuratively questioned how the Hulk could defeat the Juggernaut if he couldn't even knock him out. I didn't request specific examples. Your reply was to read this entire thread.

You and misinterpreting posts is unfortunately becoming a recurring theme.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Which is consequentially plummeting toward Earth at a rapid rate.

The only thing plummeting around here is your so-called credibility in this thread.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I agree on the Space thing, it's used too often and it sucks. Why is retreat unacceptable though? If Hulk ran away, you would be saying "Juggernaut Wins" in a second.

No, no I wouldn't. Again, another baseless assumption made on your part. Another unfortunate recurring theme here.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I have provided opinion and fact combination to prove why I THINK that Hulk would win. Opponents or allies of mine in this debate can vouch for me on that. KillAll, one of the people (if not the only person) to actually go the distance with me on this thread in terms of dedication, even admitted that the things I am saying are undeniable because all I've ever tried to prove is why I THINK Hulk would win. I've never stated anything as fact unless it was fact.

Yes, facts about the Hulk that don't convince me that the Hulk could beat the Juggernaut in a physical encounter.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

As for me not swaying you, changing your opinion or having you be impressed with me, I don't think it'll lose me any sleep given that I am one of the most known, respected and renown debaters on KMC forums.

That's it. Inflate yourself some more. Boost the ol' ego. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back some more, because nobody else is going to do it for you.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Don't be upset just because you strolled in with your hopes held high and I sent you packing with a pocket full of dreams.

Haha! I got a good chuckle out of that one. Sorry, but unlike you, I don't stroll into threads with an overinflated sense of self worth, bragging about being respected, renown and well known on a forum about battles between comic book characters, much less high hopes.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

If Juggernaut can be knocked across the USA with a backhand by Onslaught and left SCARED to death, Hulk can do a hell of a lot more.

That wasn't physical. Where did they show Onslaught physically knocking the Juggernaut clear across America? Show me. All they showed was the Juggernaut laying on the ground muttering the name Onslaught.

Besides, everyone knows that the Onslaught story line wasn't filled with plot holes and inconsistencies abound. 🙄

One more thing, the Juggernaut has never been scared of or intimidated by the Hulk. NEVER.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Jeez, everybody but the sticklers know what people mean when they say somebody's more invincible than the other.

You said it better than I could've.

"As I stated before, what the Juggernaut does have is a level of invincibility and in the world of comics, there ARE levels of invincibility, whether you'd like to admit it or not. It's a fact. Pick up a comic book. "

No, there are not levels of invincibility because you want there to be. The example YOU used, proves such. "Superman is invincible (undefeatable: inable to be defeated)....oh, until he gets some kryptonite against him." That means he is defeatable. Juggernaut is not invincible UNTIL someone stops him. He can be stopped and he can be overcome, therefore the "levels" do not apply as none of the applications of the word apply to Juggernaut.

"You can go and say that you're either invincible or you're not and that there are no shades of gray. By that same token you can say that a comic book character is either dead or he isn't. And we all KNOW that there are comic book characters that have died in the past have been brought back. In the world of comic books, it's never a matter of "either you are or you aren't" and it never has been."

Hahahaha. You just proved my point by arguing with yourself. Of course they are either dead or alive, that's because there are no other avenues. It's dead or alive. It's not dead, a bit dead, a bit alive, alive. It's two extremes, living or dead. In the lucrative world of comics, the most shocking twist is a death. The next best way to tune fans back in, is to bring them back. I thought you said "This isn't about death". So I'll move on.

"Nothing is completely black or white."

So basically, the term for INVINCIBILITY that you yourself posted, is now irrelevant? Why? Coz I'm smashing your points? YOU posted the term invincibility and it's definitions. I proved that NONE of them apply to Juggernaut, yet you continually insist he is invincible. So you're either creating some new definition of the word or you're being silly.

A question: If he CAN be overcome, CAN be subdued and CAN be stopped and defeated, which are of course the three stated instances for invincibility, then what is it that he has that renders him, to you, invincible? Since by multi-definition, he isn't.

"Nope. Don't tell me what I'm "essentially" saying when you still don't undertstand what I'm saying at all. I didn't "essentially" say that nor did I type it. You couldn't be more wrong about what I'm trying to convey. Again, you STILL don't comprehend my explanation of invincibility and its levels as it relates to the comic book world."

You DIDN'T ESSENTIALLY say that someone is unbeatable until they are opposed by means of which to beat them? Here's a quote, it's from a guy named theflyxx.....oh wait, that's you isn't it? Let's take a look:

"Superman is invincible......until someone exposes him to Kryptonite. Colossus is invincible.......until he encounters somebody stronger than him"

Superman is invincible.......until someone exposes him to Kryptonite. You are implying that Superman is undefeatable until someone comes along with means to defeat him. Colossus is invincible until someone he encounters is stronger. Implying that Colossus is undefeatable coz of his strength until someone comes along and beats him by....strength. Tsk tsk.

"I was using an EMP as an example of how IM could be taken out, not the end all, be all device that could only defeat him."

You said he is invincible as you have done with multiple people who aren't invincible. So he's invincible till someone comes along with an EMP? Right, right. Oh, and strength. Appears he's undefeatable until faced with quite a number of things.

"Where did I say that "I'm not gonna" read your posts? Another misinterpretation on your part, hmm?"

See the line after that? The one you ignored? The one that said "Something to that effect"? I asked you and suggested to you to go back and read. You chose to label me telling you that as a cop out and pretty much shrugged off any attempt of a suggestion I made regarding my posts. Only until I made a fuss did you REVEAL that you had read them. If you came in right away and said "I have read your posts" when I asked you if you had, instead of continually saying "You've said nothing" without showing me how you gathered that, we would have avoided me having to smash your argument so vehemently.

"Again, I figuratively questioned how the Hulk could defeat the Juggernaut if he couldn't even knock him out. I didn't request specific examples. Your reply was to read this entire thread.

You and misinterpreting posts is unfortunately becoming a recurring theme."

A) You don't know that Hulk CAN'T knock him out. I haven't knocked out my father before, doesn't mean I can't. Hulk hasn't specifically tried to knock him out. This all revolves around your knockout fetish.

B) You didn't request specific examples nor did I imply you did. I suggested of my own free will that you read the thread for my views. Not just on the knockout, but so that you would realise there is more to this fight than a KO. Again it's you who is misinterpreting me to suit yourself.

"Yes, facts about the Hulk that don't convince me that the Hulk could beat the Juggernaut in a physical encounter."

If facts don't convince you, close the book. End. Facts are facts for a reason bub.

"That wasn't physical. Where did they show Onslaught physically knocking the Juggernaut clear across America? Show me. All they showed was the Juggernaut laying on the ground muttering the name Onslaught."

Magneto Vs Juggernaut thread. See the pic of Onslaught and Juggernaut. Contrary to the Juggernaut fans popular belief, Onslaught backhanded him. Seeing as Juggernaut's MIND is the only thing vulnerable to psionic, that backhand had to be physical for it to work. A psionic backhand to the chest wouldn't have done any harm would it?

"Besides, everyone knows that the Onslaught story line wasn't filled with plot holes and inconsistencies abound"

The classic Juggernaut fan safety net is when in doubt, claim bad writing and plot holes.

"One more thing, the Juggernaut has never been scared of or intimidated by the Hulk. NEVER."

Vice Versa. Although he seemed pretty scared when he fought War Hulk. Wait wait, before you jump in and say "He had Apocalypse's help!!!!!". He didn't know that.......did he? EVEN if he did, he fought the Hulk, the character. He used forward momentum against him, it was stopped regardless of how, by a force on Earth. He was then locked, eye to eye with Hulk and wide eyed he screamed "Impossible!!", right before he got lobbed.

I like proving people wrong when they are as openly contradictory as you but you're making it easy.

"Jeez, everybody but the sticklers know what people mean when they say somebody's more invincible than the other. "

Yeah but that's knowing what someone is referring to. I had the same problem with Dragon recently. He said Juggernaut is more "Invincible" than someone. After going back he realised what he was saying and he said "I meant invulnerable". Which is what I KNEW he meant.

When somebody actually means that someone is more or less invincible than someone else, they are wrong, if they mean invincible and NOT invulnerable.

-AC