Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by SUPERMANDAMAN
STILL DONT PUT ASIDE THE FACT THAT HULK HELD HIS OWN AGAINST ONSLAUGHT AND JUGGERNAUT GOT HIS ASS HANDED TO HIM

if you are going to compare a person that hulk and juggernaut have both fought, atleast do it accurately. onlsaught was warping juggernauts perception of the mansion, when juggernaut ran into charles' office, onslaught grabbed him from behind. his phsychic myst manifested, then the background changed. he subdued cain marko TELEPATHICALLY. the next we see cain, his psyche is trapped with the confines of the gem. hulk cannot be dealt with in the same way, because it is significantly harder to telepathically assault him due to his multiple personalities.

Originally posted by Never
Wrong. The incarnation in Secret Wars was "Savage Hulk." His intelligence level?

"Intelligence: Child-level"

http://www.incrediblehulk.com/savagehulk.html

He was Savage Hulk? I haven't read Secret Wars in a while, but I remember Hulk speaking like a normal person, not in simple sentences about him smashing stuff. He was pretty sarcastic and annoyed all the time, but not savage. I also recall him saying to someone that when he has Banner's intelligence, he can't get angry enough in battle to raise his strength significantly. My friend lost my copy of this series, so I can't look it up. But if any of you have it handy, check up on it, I very well might be wrong.

Of course Hulk was speaking as a normal person during the first Secret Wars. He was a bit touchy most of the time, but his intelligence level was normal.

No savage Hulk but an intelligent one (though he was slowly losing his intelligence). So he needed much more time to get real strong... and NOT a few seconds.

I think Hulk and Juggernaut are listed in the 100 ton range because they are both the strongest hero/villans in the marvel universe. And their is a reason that one isn't better than the other. You have a super strong hero and a super strong villan, fighting each other. I compare these two fighting like I do Neo and The Agent. You have to find a balance to even things out. IF the Hulk was totally unstoppable, invincicble, impervous, and unable to be harmed, then whats the fun it that? Same thing goes for Juggernaur. How can you develop interesting stories with people that are totally untouchable? It makes perfect sense to me that the writers chose to have The Hulk win a bout or 2 and Juggernaut win a bout our 2. It balances things out and creates a story, and also demonstrates that neither The Hulk or Juggernaut are Gods. Just let the 2 guys battle it out. The Hulk will win sometimes, and Juggernaut will win sometimes. I actually like both the characters. I think if they teamed up and took on all the characters on Earth they would pretty much wreck the entire planet as a team. Another thing is if the writers wanted to make one better then the other. The fights would be totally one sided. And The Hulk would win 10 times out of 10. Or Juggernaut would win 10 times out of 10. But thats not the case each character has better days that best the other character. And thats the end of it in my opinion.

from 1 - 7 on marve.com
HULK
intelligence- 6

strength- 7

speed- 3

durability- 7

energy preotection- 1

fighting skills- 4

JUGGERNAUT

intelligence- 2

strength- 7

speed- 2

durability- 7

energy preotection- 1

fighting skills- 3

Originally posted by JuggernautFan
if you are going to compare a person that hulk and juggernaut have both fought, atleast do it accurately. onlsaught was warping juggernauts perception of the mansion, when juggernaut ran into charles' office, onslaught grabbed him from behind. his phsychic myst manifested, then the background changed. he subdued cain marko TELEPATHICALLY. the next we see cain, his psyche is trapped with the confines of the gem. hulk cannot be dealt with in the same way, because it is significantly harder to telepathically assault him due to his multiple personalities.

and thats why the hulk is better

Originally posted by Never
And this undermines your argument. It IS vague, so it CAN mean it doubles, quadruples, or increases exponentially. They allow for any of the aforementioned BY being vague.

The only thing it undermines, is the credibility of the writers.

There is only one "main" intelligent incarnation...and I do not get your question re: "but his bio doesn't say how much time it normally takes him."

Your guess is as good as mine. But do not say "a few seconds".

Prove he was not afraid when the mountain dropped? You have no clue how afraid he was considering they did NOT show any of their faces when the mountain hovered or when it dropped.

My point exactly. Nobody knows what he was thinking. But let's say, for arguments sake, he WAS scared. Then we have an intelligent, calm and scared Hulk. Still no reason to become millions of times stronger in a few seconds.

And do you really believe he wet his pants ? He is not that easily scared. Throwing a mountain on the Hulk is not the way to kill him.

Btw: if an object of 150 billion tons gets thrown on our planet, there's a big chance nobody survives this. If I remember clearly, the planet on which the heroes were fighting, was a very "fragile" planet.

Do not understand why this fragile planet wasn't destroyed completely by these "falling mountains". Another mistake from the writer, I suppose.

Wrong. The incarnation in Secret Wars was "Savage Hulk." His intelligence level?

"Intelligence: Child-level"

A woman lifting a car to rescue her child is what I consider "insanely strong."

Three things:
1. a bit of topic
2. do not make the mistake to think that any mother who sees her child in danger can become this strong... The "lifting car"-mother is quite exceptional.
3. I do not consider this "insanely strong", just very strong for a very brief period of time. It is not that the mother threw the car over a mountain.

Wrong. The only reason it ended was because Dr. Strange teleported him, and he teleported him because that was the ONLY way to end it. The dialogue will support me here. Like to see it verbatim?

And no soul here has an equation that demonstrates the ratio of Hulk's strength to Hulk's anger...besides the fact that he who wrote Secret Wars did not write IH #300. Different interpretation of the character.

Originally posted by SUPERMANDAMAN
from 1 - 7 on marve.com
HULK
intelligence- 6

strength- 7

speed- 3

durability- 7

energy preotection- 1

fighting skills- 4

JUGGERNAUT

intelligence- 2

strength- 7

speed- 2

durability- 7

energy preotection- 1

fighting skills- 3

Wow man, sorry to disappoint you, but these figures suck.

First of all, which Hulk are we talking about ? Very very important.

And Hulk has speed 3, and Juggernaut speed 2 ?? What the hell ? Hulk is waaay faster than Juggernaut.

And they have the same durability ?!? Noo, Juggernauts durability is above that one from Hulk.

hey dont argue with me go to marvel.com or look in the marvel encyclopedia

on speed from 1-7

1-slow
2-normal
3-superhuman peak speed 700 mph
4-speed of sound mach 1
5-supersonic mach 2 through orbital velocity
6-speed of light 180,000 miles a sec
7-warp speed-trancending light light speed

so that is about right for the hulk cause i dont think hulk can run the speed of sound

and the durability is about right because 7 is nearly indestructible and its almost imposible to hurt hulk and even if you manage to do it he has a even stronger healing factor than wolverine

Originally posted by SUPERMANDAMAN
hey dont argue with me go to marvel.com or look in the marvel encyclopedia

on speed from 1-7

1-slow
2-normal
3-superhuman peak speed 700 mph
4-speed of sound mach 1
5-supersonic mach 2 through orbital velocity
6-speed of light 180,000 miles a sec
7-warp speed-trancending light light speed

so that is about right for the hulk cause i dont think hulk can run the speed of sound

and the durability is about right because 7 is nearly indestructible and its almost imposible to hurt hulk and even if you manage to do it he has a even stronger healing factor than wolverine

I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing with the scale.

That's the problem with this "scale". Juggernaut is very slow, compared to Hulk, and still he has 2 points, and Hulk 3 ? The difference should be much greater.

So according to this scale, I guess their abilities are correct (though Hulk can move and jump REALLY fast, even faster than the speed of sound). But the scale itself sucks. 7 points only to determine speed, strength, durability... that's not enough.

Originally posted by who?-kid
So because his maximum power level is vague, anything is possible ? So because it is vague, we have to accept everything ?

The only thing it undermines, is the credibility of the writers.

I guess.

I'll clarify : his bio does not mention how much time it takes a "normal" Hulk (e.g. the savage one) to become significantly stronger. A few minutes when he's very angry ? A few hours when he's just a little pissed ?

No need to, so any time is sufficient contingent on which incarnation it is.

Your guess is as good as mine. But do not say "a few seconds".

Let me put a gun to your head. How long will it take your adrenaline to skyrocket? A few seconds.

My point exactly. Nobody knows what he was thinking. But let's say, for arguments sake, he WAS scared. Then we have an intelligent, calm and scared Hulk. Still no reason to become millions of times stronger in a few seconds.

See above. Fear does raise adrenaline levels, but with Hulk it is anger or stress.

And do you really believe he wet his pants ? He is not that easily scared. Throwing a mountain on the Hulk is not the way to kill him.

Two things here. If that WAS Banner controlled Hulk, then you are mistaken:

"It appears that this incarnation does not have the quick healing ability by the fact that the Hulk had to use a leg brace when his leg was hurt during the Secret Wars."

So yes, it would have killed him. By the same token...

"Due to the fact that Bruce's brain is controlling the body and he is trying to stay in control, he can not fully tap into the unlimited strength of the Savage Hulk whereas the "madder he gets, the stronger he gets."

Again, if it WAS Banner-controlled Hulk, he should have encountered difficulty in getting sufficiently angry, according to you...but then again, nobody but the writers/creator knows whether or not Hulk's strength increases exponentially.

Btw: if an object of 150 billion tons gets thrown on our planet, there's a big chance nobody survives this. If I remember clearly, the planet on which the heroes were fighting, was a very "fragile" planet.

WHAT? Blah, no way I'm digging out the issue but um how BIG was the planet? If an ASTEROID weighing that much hit the planet, sure. But if that object HOVERED what, several hundred feet in the air prior to dropping in a DESERTED area you SHOULD have earthquakes. But a global disaster? Not seeing it.

Do not understand why this fragile planet wasn't destroyed completely by these "falling mountains". Another mistake from the writer, I suppose.

See above.

Nope, he was an intelligent incarnation. He talked just like you and me.

Finish your thought, please. Franklin Richards is a child and "talks just like you and me," assuming you mean coherent sentences and not jibberish.

juggernaut would kill hulk in a matter of seconds before he got all mad in such. he would then proceed to throw the hulkster into mecury were he would die when he went back to banner form.

Originally posted by who?-kid
I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing with the scale.

That's the problem with this "scale". Juggernaut is very slow, compared to Hulk, and still he has 2 points, and Hulk 3 ? The difference should be much greater.

So according to this scale, I guess their abilities are correct (though Hulk can move and jump REALLY fast, even faster than the speed of sound). But the scale itself sucks. 7 points only to determine speed, strength, durability... that's not enough.

juggernaut has a 2 which means normal
hulk may be a 3 but its a big jump because that means he can get up to 700 mph
But the chart does need to be more than 1-7

Originally posted by bardock
juggernaut would kill hulk in a matter of seconds before he got all mad in such. he would then proceed to throw the hulkster into mecury were he would die when he went back to banner form.

juggernaut wouldnt be able to catch hulk.

Originally posted by SUPERMANDAMAN
from 1 - 7 on marve.com
HULK
intelligence- 6

strength- 7

speed- 3

durability- 7

energy preotection- 1

fighting skills- 4

JUGGERNAUT

intelligence- 2

strength- 7

speed- 2

durability- 7

energy preotection- 1

fighting skills- 3

Dont give us bs like this...
Jugg is smarter, faster, and has alot more energy protection then the Hulk. Otherwise the rest is correct.
This is my last post of the day..

Originally posted by Never

Finish your thought, please. Franklin Richards is a child and "talks just like you and me," assuming you mean coherent sentences and not jibberish.

Again, Hulk talked like everybody else in Secret Wars. No "Hulk smash" or "Hulk is strongest there is" nonsense. Don’t see why this is so hard to understand. No savage Hulk, no mindless one, just a normal talking person.

I think it was a Banner-controlled Hulk, but I’m not sure (there are so many incarnations).

But he was definitely intelligent. At some point he was explaining to Spider-Man about the planet while controlling some monitors.

Originally posted by who?-kid
Again, Hulk talked like everybody else in Secret Wars. No "Hulk smash" or "Hulk is strongest there is" nonsense. Don’t see why this is so hard to understand. No savage Hulk, no mindless one, just a normal talking person.

I [b]think it was a Banner-controlled Hulk, but I’m not sure (there are so many incarnations).

But he was definitely intelligent. At some point he was explaining to Spider-Man about the planet while controlling some monitors. [/B]

O my bad i forgot that you know beter than the people at marvel i mean they only are the people that created the characters.

Originally posted by SUPERMANDAMAN
O my bad i forgot that you know beter than the people at marvel i mean they only are the people that created the characters.

No, I do not know it "beter" than the people at Marvel. But I certainly know it better than you.

But I have a proposition for you :

1. buy the comics of Secret Wars
2. read them
3. try to find a mindless Hulk or a savage Hulk (or another dumb incarnation) in Secret Wars.

Got it ? Take your time...

Originally posted by LeAtHerRFace
Dont give us bs like this...
Jugg is smarter, faster, and has alot more energy protection then the Hulk. Otherwise the rest is correct.
This is my last post of the day..

Yea im sure you know better than marvel and how the hell do you figure juggernaut is faster than the hulk and if we are talking bout profesor hulk then there is no way in hell hes smarter so i have no idea where you coming from with this but if you dont believe me go to marvel.com or read a comic.

Originally posted by gambit88
well here is how it is in the marvel encycopedia
hulk intelligence is a 6 on a scale of 7 though he is a unstoppable beast he is still bruce banner a 6 is rated as a super genius
juggernaut intelligence is a 2 out of 7 which is a normal level in other words he's no smarter than me
hulk speed is a 3 out of a 7 which is superhuman peak 700 mph
juggernauts is a 2 out of a 7 which is again normal though he is so called unstoppable he still doesn't go faster than say an olympic athlete
hulk and juggernauts durability are the same at a 7 out of 7 which is virtually indestructable
energy projection there the same also a 1 out of 7 which is none
fighting skills is what levels it off if nothing else does hulk is a 4 out of 7 in fighting skills which is experienced fighter and juggernaut is only a 3 out of 7 which is only had some training and remember this is all out of the marvel encyclopedia
not to mention hulk does have a healing factor equal to wolverines so call me stupid but statistically i would hafta say the hulk.