Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Poor analogy; it's based on your false belief that Juggernaut is invincible. Hulk isn't going to be fighting for days. And once again, Hulk doesn't have to charge up strength, he can instantly flip out. Let's say that they start out at relatively even strength. We don't know this is a fact, it is only an assumption. All we know is that both of their strengths are far above 100 tons. One adrenaline surge and Hulk's way stronger than Juggernaut.

Juggernaut is not invincible. If someone can be knocked out or harmed by physical force they are not invincible. If the picture doesn't prove this to you, perhaps you just don't want to believe it.

You completely ommitted my statement that your analogy is invalid because Juggernaut is not invincible. Juggernaut had no "mental blocks" when Onslaught first attacked him, knocking him ito Hoboken, when his helmet was intact. In fact, He told the X-Men who attacked him.

You are really clutching at straws. Onslaught had no mind control over Juggernaut when he defeated him. Remember, the helmet's still on.

"Having control over somebody's mind can let you easily defeat them."

How the hell does mind control override invincibility?

There was no psionics involved. Onslaught obviously physically attacked Juggernaut, knocking him several hundred miles away, unconscious.

Cosmic Cube, you're the one confusing the issue.

"If someone can be knocked out or harmed by physical force they are not invincible. If the picture doesn't prove this to you, perhaps you just don't want to believe it."

It's not specifically physical force. That's just being physically invulnerable.

He's not invincible coz invincible means inable to be overcome. Which Juggernaut is non applicable for, don't see why it's still being discussed.

-AC

Onslaught is a poor choice to question the juggernauts invunerability.Onslaught took out most of the heros all by himself, and he is psychic energy even in his armor, he coulda simpled psy blasted the juggernaut to new jersey with a psi blast. The hulk being controlled by onslaught as well when he sent him to kill cable. Onslaughts strength is way over 100+ tons hulk had to get probably the angriest he ever got and cracked his armor but did nothing to Onslaught. Onslaught isnt even in the same category as the hulk or juggernaut, He is way too powerful.

Juggernaut again is invincible to physical harm. Onslaught is Pure psy power thus he can hurt juggernaut. also Hulks base strength is only 70+ tons to start with cause i did more research on it. Abomination is stronger then the hulk abomination is 100+ tons at start, until the hulk, Hulks up

Its being discussed cause juggernaut is invincible to Physical harm to do with physicallity, he is not however invincible to psy powers or magic of sufficent strength. sides no one knows how onslaught tossed juggernaut he coulda easily tossed juggernaut with psy blast of massive proportions that sent the juggernaut flying even with his helmet on, onslaught was way too powerful for a helmet to protect him from his power

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
You completely ommitted my statement that your analogy is invalid because Juggernaut is not invincible. Juggernaut had no "mental blocks"
when Onslaught first attacked him, knocking him ito Hoboken, when his helmet was intact. In fact, He told the X-Men who attacked him.

You are really clutching at straws. Onslaught had no mind control over Juggernaut when he defeated him. Remember, the helmet's still on.

I'm not saying he's invincible, I'm saying he's immune to physical force. He can be taken out magically fairly easily. A powerful telepath could do it if they wanted to via manipulating his powers.

He knew it was Onslaught but the fact that Onslaught was Xavier was blocked.

"Having control over somebody's mind can let you easily defeat them."

How the hell does mind control override invincibility?

There was no psionics involved. Onslaught obviously physically attacked Juggernaut, knocking him several hundred miles away, unconscious.

A Psi-blast is still physical, though it uses psionic energy. If Juggernaut is invincible, a psi-blast would have the same effect as a punch, none. Juggernaut had on his helmet, so don't say that the blast affected his mind.

"Invincible" and "immune to physical harm" are one in the same. Juggernaut is neither. If I blast you with a laser, and you are immune to physical harm, it will not affect you. If I hit you with a telekinetic blast, and you are immune to physical harm, it will not affect you. However If I use telepathy or magic on you, and you are invincible, I will be able to affect you, as I am using extra-physical means.

The Hulk's strength does NOT start out at 70 tons. Stop using marveldirectory.com and go buy a Marvel Handbook or Encyclopedia, damnit.

Whether there was a mental block or not, How would Juggernaut know that Onslaught was Xavier? It's not like they look the same, or Juggernaut has mind reading ability.

he posses some telepathic power which he rarely uses. He is invincible to all things that are not psy or magical, Onslaught is psi powered to the max so thus he was harmed and since the hulk posses no psi power he cant hurt juggernaut. The only person ever to harm juggernaut was Onslaught and what does onslaught possses folkes yep hes all about the psy power, and thats why he hurt juggernaut.

The point is Hulk has no psi power so he still loses

Hulk would win an all out fight. Dr. Strange conjures the 'unbreakable' bands of Cytorrak all of the time, and he also used them in an attempt to hold Hulk, and Hulk busted out of them. Cytorrak has a strange definition of 'unbreakable' and 'invulnerable'. If you're familiar with the Cytorrak background story, he's like a defunct old world God that's now viewed as a kind of demon, and the reason behind the ruby was a means to test his powers against other magical entities. I'm not really in depth into the magical storylines because I find them kind of lame, but basically Cytorrak is powerful, but he's also kind of a bootleg character.

Hell, Juggernaut beat down Cytorrak.

You don't see Surfer slappin Galactus around and telling him to make him a sandwich.

That's not really a reliable power source.

That is pure bullshit, Juggernaut has no psychic power. Onslaught is not only psi power, he has level 7 strength. He physically attacked Juggernaut to knock him out. Juggernaut is not invincible, and Onslaught is certainly not the only person to ever harm Juggernaut. You are poorly informed. Hulk doesn't need psychic power to win this one. Just beat the Juggernaut to a pulp.

Juggs never defeated cytorrak he defeated an avatar off him,which was a giant statue that kinda looked like juggernaut.juggernaut had his entire skin ripped off and still lived. would the hulk survive if that happend to him of course not! the giant cytorrak was not cytorrak

Juggernaut is not invincible, or immune to physical damage. Hulk is stronger than Juggernaut, and has demonstrated it time and time again. If Hulk can break the bands of Cyttorak, the source of Juggernaut's power, he can easily beat down the Juggernaut.

Savagerampage, you obviously know nothing about Hulk. Hulk can reegenrate from atoms. He has been reduced to a skeleton before, and has regenerated in seconds.

how is Onslaught level 7 strength when It took the hulk to get his strongest to break his armor. so you are saying a level 7 onslaught can cream the hulk in a fist fight,then hold him down and it took all the hulks anger to nail him after, and what happened after hulk destroyed the armor of onslaught. ahh he was knocked unconsious with bruce banner seperated from the hulk. Onslaught strength was 100 ton + . There was no proof on what onslaught used to knock out hulk. he tossed him, but it coulda been a psi blast that send him flying

as i recall there are tied 2-2 3-2 for Hulk if u count the war hulk thing. here is what cyttorak really looks like and some info on juggernaut
http://groups.msn.com/TheHumanJuggernaut/cyytorak.msnw
http://groups.msn.com/TheHumanJuggernaut/thepowers.msnw
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune/7060/main.html

Hulk can't get "his strongest" his strength can increase infinitly.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
A Psi-blast is still physical, though it uses psionic energy. If Juggernaut is invincible, a psi-blast would have the same effect as a punch, none. Juggernaut had on his helmet, so don't say that the blast affected his mind.

"Invincible" and "immune to physical harm" are one in the same. Juggernaut is neither. If I blast you with a laser, and you are immune to physical harm, it will not affect you. If I hit you with a telekinetic blast, and you are immune to physical harm, it will not affect you. However If I use telepathy or magic on you, and you are invincible, I will be able to affect you, as I am using extra-physical means.

"Invincible" and "immune to physical harm" are the same but "immune to physical force" a la "immune to damage by physical force" is quite different.

And even if someone is all 'round invincible to every form of physical harm, which I'm not saying Juggernaut is since he can torn apart by magic, one could still use a telepathic blast to hurt that person mentally which is really just as good as physical pain. If not, better.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Whether there was a mental block or not, How would Juggernaut know that Onslaught was Xavier? It's not like they look the same, or Juggernaut has mind reading ability.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Dr. Strange conjures the 'unbreakable' bands of Cytorrak all of the time, and he also used them in an attempt to hold Hulk, and Hulk busted out of them.

Hell, Juggernaut beat down Cytorrak.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
That is pure bullshit, Juggernaut has no psychic power.

Magneto can augment his strength to lift 100 tons + and since Onslaught has both suped up powers of Xavier and Magneto he obviously was way stronger then level 7. The whole Onslaught storyline was used to cause the whole heros reborn thing. In the last onslaught issue hulk got super pissed and then destroyed onslaughts psi armor. he was then rendured unconsious and seperated from bruce banner! Now how was that possible? perhaps when hulk gets really mad he seperates from banner,instead of getting stronger and stronger! the onslaught storyline proved this

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
How is a blast of mental energy physical?

His avatar and a single spell are different though.

A blast of mental energy (such as telekinesis) that affects the physical world (such as knocking Juggernaut hundreds of miles,) would be regarded as physical.

Dr. Strange, the most powerful sorcerer in the universe, could easily summon the full power of cytorrak to bind Hulk. His magical abilities have no limitations.

he cannot summon the full power of cytorrak, only a certain amount just like juggernaut . they do not have cytorraks full abilitys