Haha, just to add fuel to a dying fire (from the thread about jumping distance)- wasn't it in the Hulk's own letter pages, around the high 300's (370+) to low 40x's that it was stated that around the Marvel office's Juggernaut is considered stronger? Admittedly this was during the Professor's tenure but IIRC correctly they did make a point that Juggernaut has dynamic strength also, but at a higher potential than the Hulk.
I wish I had my comics or else I'd look it up myself (Its easy to get lost in memories re-reading old comics, good times) but I always enjoy reading the letter pages and that letter stood out. I think it was the second letter about Juggernaut in as many issues. I'm fairly certain about the contents of the response however. Could someone type it up and give the exact issue number?
FWIW:
* In What If Vol 2 #13 at the end when Prof is flying through space they do mention that immortality may be part and parcel of Juggernaut's ability.
* I also don't recall #94 either but I think in that one Juggernaut outlived everyone by virtue of his enchanment.
* I thought dying of a brain aneurysm during AoA, or at least going brain dead, was crazy.
* My friends rag on me to no end about the current state of sadness for The Replacement (what I call Cain now that he is no longer a Juggernaut).
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Someone will take that literally and you'll have a pissed off fanboy on your hands. Be careful 😉.Juggernaut isn't in Hulk's league, he's in the big strong guy league with Thing. Not Hulk's league. The only one who can claim to throw down with Hulk and be impressive is Abomination. Abomination is a monster. The only thing he has over Hulk is killer instinct.
-AC
i think you are severely mistaken here. i hate to do this again, but thing isnt anywhere near juggernauts level. we all saw what happened when thing tried to fight juggernaut....... dont believe me he knocked him out, and pretty damn quick at that??? take a peak......
http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing/pure_strength6.txt
http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing2/Thing_KO1b.txt
IF you people think that i'm gettin my information from cards.... etc, you are wrong. i just happen to own every in-continuity appearance juggernaut has ever made. from the early years.... up to and including a few imposternaut issues. juggernaut is -very much- in hulks league.
I never doubt Juggernaut's strength but he is not in Hulk's league.
Also, regardless of letter pages, it WAS during Professor's tenure that all this stuff was said. Juggernaut is not potentially stronger than Hulk coz POTENTIALLY no one is. The whole limitless strength thing that he does have according to Marvel and people who read Hulk, puts him above almost anyone in the strength department. All Hulk's writers that made him what he is today, have concured that he was created to be the strongest ever and give or take a few incarnations, has remained so.
-AC
"but strength isnt every thing. Juggernauts got more stamina and endurance than Hulk, so being a tad bit weaker in the strength dep. doesnt necesarrily drop him out of Hulks league."
Stamina is debatable. He can run at over 500mph for a good while and not get tired. He eats his greens. Stamina doesn't tie in with anger or his ability to remain as The Hulk. He has remained as The Hulk for days and days without doing much.
-AC
From the 'No Excuses' (at the Leader's Lair, can't post links) website which I assume is a Hulk fansite:
"Again, conflict in this issue. Hulk stops the Juggernaut, but really its only with his enhanced power that seems to make this possible. So it’s a win for the Hulk, but at the same time it kind of highlights that without this power increase that it wouldn’t ordinarily be possible."
Even Apoc's comments make it seem as if Hulk is merely a vessel for Celestial might/tech/power. I think that it's stated all over the Marvel universe that at certain levels power, whether magic/cosmic/science is just power so there are some things even Cytorrak and his enchantements can't overcome.
The funny thing is this part of the issue:
"Juggernaut puts his helmet on and says, “So much for War.” He says that at least he left them a souvenir. Creel holds War’s sword and says that is good enough for him. He asks if they’re leaving Rick. ***Cain says that Rick and the girl saved Creel’s hide and that ought to be worth something even to Creel.*** Cain says that they’ll take him to the hospital and that he will make sure that the NWO pays “time and a half when we bring ‘em this sword.”"
Now either he didn't really think that War could behead him, that his beheading wouldn't kill him (see his fight vs D'Spayre), or he was oblivious to his impending demise. As a Juggernaut fan I think Cain would've survived whether or not he lost his head. Heck, even Shatterstar's sword, which were forged in a 'dimension of science and magic'(weakness) were enough to overcome 'naut's normal Indestructable status and poke his eyes. He wasn't using his forcefield in the battle though. It was only X-Force. I think the question is whether his head would've popped off or just sat on his neck because of his instantaneous regen (again see Shatterstar incident).
Hah, Juggernaut's eye's heal faster than The End Hulks! 😛 Maybe the fight will last until The End. I don't think the cockroaches can overpower the Juggernaut's enchantments...assuming that Cain ever regains them that is.
A sign of bad writing during the whole Marvel vs DC is Superman, with a punch, blatantly disregarding Cytorrak's enchantment on Juggernaut. Even Mjolnir couldn't do that. Of course, similarly when Juggernaut was in the Exiles Universe he was also less powerful and rendered vulnerable.
Just saying that a Hulk > Superman > Juggernaut argument isn't necessarily a good proof.
You're right AC, I think that its effectively a stalemate though I'll throw my chips on Cain if the fight becomes prolonged.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"but strength isnt every thing. Juggernauts got more stamina and endurance than Hulk, so being a tad bit weaker in the strength dep. doesnt necesarrily drop him out of Hulks league."Stamina is debatable. He can run at over 500mph for a good while and not get tired. He eats his greens. Stamina doesn't tie in with anger or his ability to remain as The Hulk. He has remained as The Hulk for days and days without doing much.
-AC
but hulk has also tired from swimming across the ocean. he didn't last too long doing that. he does have a definate cap on stamina, endurance, and durability.
Originally posted by lft4ded
"Again, conflict in this issue. Hulk stops the Juggernaut, but really its only with his enhanced power that seems to make this possible. So it’s a win for the Hulk, but at the same time it kind of highlights that without this power increase that it wouldn’t ordinarily be possible."Even Apoc's comments make it seem as if Hulk is merely a vessel for Celestial might/tech/power. I think that it's stated all over the Marvel universe that at certain levels power, whether magic/cosmic/science is just power so there are some things even Cytorrak and his enchantements can't overcome.
this was explained throughout the mini series that hulk was emminating other dimensional energy. dr. strange has the use of the crimson bands of cyttorak also. historically they were strong enough to hold hulk. but the bands are based on the laws of this reality. so being the focal point of the other dimensional energy, he easily dispatched the bands that strange cast.
the same thing happened when juggernaut was pushing hulk. he didn't stop him until he was engulfed in the energy. juggernaut isn't unstoppable if his power/magic isn't working against the force/object that is opposing it. the energy was negating cains. hence.... he was stopped. not by physical force, but by negation of energy.
Originally posted by lft4ded
Now either he didn't really think that War could behead him, that his beheading wouldn't kill him (see his fight vs D'Spayre), or he was oblivious to his impending demise. As a Juggernaut fan I think Cain would've survived whether or not he lost his head. Heck, even Shatterstar's sword, which were forged in a 'dimension of science and magic'(weakness) were enough to overcome 'naut's normal Indestructable status and poke his eyes. He wasn't using his forcefield in the battle though. It was only X-Force. I think the question is whether his head would've popped off or just sat on his neck because of his instantaneous regen (again see Shatterstar incident).Hah, Juggernaut's eye's heal faster than The End Hulks! 😛 Maybe the fight will last until The End. I don't think the cockroaches can overpower the Juggernaut's enchantments...assuming that Cain ever regains them that is.
i've pretty much said all this before too........ but they wont listen. at this forum, it's blasphemy to assume that juggernaut would win, in any way shape or form against hulk. but i can tell you are a juggernaut fan, because you sound like you have actually read the issues that are in question.
Originally posted by JuggernautFan
i've pretty much said all this before too........ but they wont listen. at this forum, it's blasphemy to assume that juggernaut would win, in any way shape or form against hulk.
Ah well, that's just throwing oil on the fire, if you ask me 😉.
Btw : Hulk can take Juggernaut and Juggernaut can take Hulk. Depends too much on the writer. They are (roughly) on the same level. Don't care what everybody else says.
"he does have a definate cap on stamina, endurance, and durability."
He doesn't have a definitive durability level.
Also, I don't consider your opinions blasphemy. But ever since you claimed that Hulk has 0% chance of winning against Juggernaut, everything from then on has been rather tainted coz it proved just how biased your views are. Hulk is probably my 3rd favourite.
-AC