Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Invulnerable means he couldn't be wounded.. not that a loud noise wouldn't make his ears ring. Look up the word.

And he only feels pain to a certain extent.. mental pain, or pain from sensory attacks, loud noise, bright light for example. But if you dropped a 50 ton boulder on his head he wouldn't feel a thing. That is what's meant by his unvulnerability and inability to feel physical pain from a direct attack, nothing more, you assume I and everyone else who say he's invulnerable means to everything and anything.. but we've also stated his weakness to magic, psychics and his senses of sight and hearing. Maybe you choose to ignore those comments, I just don't know.

In "The End" when the universe was ERASED. Nobody was killed. The universe's proverbial reset button was pressed, people and events were erased and reset. EVERYONE and EVERYTHING was undone and redone to fit the will of the ultimate cosmic power in the Marvell universe. Even those immortal gods etc were "killed". It didn't matter if someone was immortal or not, time and space blinked out and the slate was wiped clean and restored.

Think of it this way.. you have a videogame character, in his file he is in "god mode" and can't be hurt, but if you delete his file and start over.. his "god mode" or whatever invincibility he has doesn't protect his file from being deleted now does it?

Sorry about editing this stuff in after you'd posted, I was editing it while you were posting I guess.

Hey, I just looked it up, and here's what it said:

'Invulnerable:

in·vul·ner·a·ble, adj,

Invulnerable means he couldn't be wounded.. not that a loud noise wouldn't make his ears ring. '

Darnit, you're right!

Seriously though.

-Immune to attack; impregnable.
-Impossible to damage, injure, or wound.

IMMUNE to ATTACK. IMPREGNABLE.

IMPOSSIBLE, let me repeat that, IMPOSSIBLE, to DAMAGE< INJURE OR WOUND.

Yes, but in that "impossible" they mean "physically".. like.. with a stick.. a rock.. an admantium jackhammer.. as examples. Just hitting him with something.. even if you're the Hulk and even if that something is a radioactive, acid tipped, electrofied, flaming, adamantium baseball bat the size of the empire state building, it's not going to hurt him.

But if the attack falls into one of his weaknesses.. then yeah, he'll feel it. Otherwise, no.

Originally posted by Vash TFA
So Nimrod used sound to try and fry Juggernaut's brain there. Kinda worked, but after the attack was over Juggernaut was back on his feet like it never happened, his uber regeneration and all musta fixed it up right after.

I guess I forgot to meantion Juggernaut is also effected by sensory attacks.

>>>>>>>>>>He can see and hear.. so obviously.. bright lights and loud sounds can hurt his eyes or ears<<<<<<<<.

>>>>>>>However, as soon as the attack has ended the pain felt instantly vanishes since no actual damage was sustained to his sensory organs.<<<<<<

For instance, Banshee has screamed directly into his hear and you can bet he felt that, but not as much as normal people would,

>>>>>and as soon as the scream ended so did any pain he felt.<<<<<

-Immune to attack; impregnable.
-Impossible to damage, injure, or wound.

IMMUNE to ATTACK. IMPREGNABLE.

IMPOSSIBLE, let me repeat that, IMPOSSIBLE, to DAMAGE< INJURE OR WOUND.

"He felt pain in his ears from loud sound.. "

So he felt physical pain. End of story really. Permanent or not, the duration doesn't matter. He felt it, which you said was impossible and then admitted had happened. Contradiction. He is vulnerable to physical harm.

"As for War Hulk stopping him. Sure, that happened. But with all the augmentation Apocalypse did on Hulk for that fight one can hardly say that Hulk really did it on his own. The combined cosmic energy of two universes is already well beyond Hulk's own power, if Hulk was up against the combined cosmic energy of two univereses.. he'd do a lot more than stop walking forward when it hit him. All it managed to do to Juggernaut with Hulk's own strength, the combined cosmic energy of two universes and a suit of celestial armor.. was stop his forward motion. That is what he shouted "IMPOSSIBLE!" about."

So if we remove all that BS you just wrote, all that point dodging. It comes down to, do you believe Juggernaut is unstoppable? Yes. Did you just admit to him being stopped? Yes. Was Hulk powered up by other means? Yes. Does this change the fact that the man you claimed was unstoppable, was infact stopped? No. He isn't unstoppable then.

"Give me an example where Hulk proves Stronger than Juggernaut then I might consider this. Hulk has shown incredible strength and feats during his time, but so has Juggernaut"

Show me where Juggernaut has lifted a 150 billion ton mountain (I just know you'll cry bad writing just like every Juggernaut fan does. Funny, they do that with Onslaught to) and then you can claim that he is stronger.

"Now, while there are others that may accomplish hurting Juggernaut, but like I said, at normal strength, the Juggernaut cannot be physically hurt, and especially not by anything Hulk throws at him. He can punch him all day and it won't hurt a bit, and it never has. Now if you can tell me how the Hulk can hurt Juggernaut I'd like to know."

Well I just proved, as did Vash, that Juggernaut can be hurt by extremely loud sounds. Sensory pain that is manifesting physically. So let's stop the "He's unstoppable and immune to physical pain" rants. Hulk has proven to be able to produce extremely loud sounds by smashing his arms together. More than enough to hurt Juggernaut physically, if you say his punches cannot.

"Well, as I still said, it doesn't really matter, in my opinion, as I said. If a pretty large guy in street clothes walks up to the Hulk and hits him, which he can easily take, that first punch will tell him right away that this is no normal person, like if a blind man walks up to you starts slapping you around, u'll figure out pretty quick that he's not as blind as you thought."

Hulk isn't the smartest knife in the drawer though is he? He wouldn't stop and think "Hmm, this guy sure looks normal besides his power. Maybe it's Juggernaut." You dodged my point. If Juggernaut is so able to beat Hulk, why not go face to face in normal clothing? Why do you say that point doesn't matter? Coz you know the truth.

"Prove to me that he was physically hurt, if you wanna go that route."

Nightcrawler. For one.

"And, Hulk's full strength is still unmeasured, meaning it may have no limit, and I'm sure it probably doesn't, given the the proper motivation of course. And also, Juggernaut's full strength is still unmeasured also. Now you can debate this as you want, but as has been seen, Juggernaut has already matched, and a few times bested the Hulk."

Not displaying your full strength is one thing. Having no "full strength" is another. Juggernaut's strength does not increase unless he is not using it all and chooses to go higher. Hulk's through emotion, does keep increasing.

"Well no sh*t. Now I don't know if you're talking about a comic issue or in general. But I'll say this, if Eternity feels the need to to wipe out the universe and start fresh, then he'll do so and everyone will go. Includign the Juggernaut. That's a no-brainer. Why you even brought up something like that is unknown to me, and pointless."

An Immortal would have survived. You claimed him to be such.

"And like I said, Juggernaut doesn't need the armor for anything other than superpowered clothing. He not only fought Hulk in streetclothes, but Colossus as well. He let Colossus do his worse on him, and then laid him out with a single punch. "

Hulk never really fought back and Colossus is no Hulk.

"Mentally unstoppable and physically unstoppable? Where did that come from? Anyways, yes he was stopped cold, by a celestially powered Hulk as I said. And since Celestially energy is by nature unknown, it doesn't surprise me too much. "

My point was, he was stopped. This supposedly unstoppable man.

"But the Hulk the way he is now just can't do it. Oh, and that was Secret Wars II #7 if you wanted to know."

Regular Hulk now is actually stronger than he's ever been.

"Now, he doesn't really need the force-field"

But....he must do if he has it right? I mean the writers think he does.

"Now, Psylocke using her telepathy on him, you are talking about during the whole Onslaught Crossover, which was by the way one of the most horribly unorganized and overrated crossover in comic history? Now, I can't argue with you on that, that's one you'd have to take to the writers, cause even Marvel said, many many times, before and after Onslaught, that you cannot use telepathy on Juggernaut while his helmet is on. Still can't accept it? Too bad, just take it up with Stan Lee or something."

All Juggernaut fans hate the Onslaught saga. How coincidental.

"And as I've said, NO, he cannot be physical hurt, not by anything Hulk can hit him with anyways. Now if you can tell me just how then I will definitely reconsider my statement, cause I didn't read Wynddar's statement on this, so i'll look in on it. And when did Nightcrawler hurt Juggernaut and How?"

He can be and I gave you an example of how.

"Oh, some issue a million years ago Nightcrawler stucka torch in his face and I guess he felt that. Could go back the eye thing though. I guess his eyes aren't invulnerable, and if that's true, then he probably didn't enjoy a lit torch shoved in his face. But looking at all the other times flames have been used on him to zero effect.. can't imagine the little torch in his face was that big a deal."

But it worked, he felt it, so why deny it? So now if it was written ages ago it's irrelevant? Get real.

-AC

"Invulnerable means he couldn't be wounded.. not that a loud noise wouldn't make his ears ring. Look up the word."

It made his head and inner ears hurt. That's physical pain. End of story.

-AC

Alpha, a few posts ago I respected you. That changed within the last few minutes, can you guess why?

You keep leaning on things like.. since a telepathic attack can stop him.. he's not unstoppable. No one EVER claimed him to be "mentally unstoppable" and you still aren't getting the "physical invulnerablility" thing either. We've already been over how the one spot in his whole body that seems to be the slightest bit affected by an attack is his eyes.. so Nightcrawler shoving a lit torch in his eyes doesn't dissolve any of his power, nor does it undo the fact that he's had white hot material pressed against his flesh and not even notice it.. how a tiny.. little. torch could possibly injure him while white hot flames can't.. is forever a mystery.. unless. you consider that either his eyes are the one point on his body that have to be vulnerable.. or that the writer actually made a mistake.. and YES they can make mistakes they are HUMAN afterall.. if a writer says Juggernaut is a mutant when he's not.. then it's a MISTAKE, if an artist colors Hulk purple and the captions say he's green, then it's a MISTAKE. They happen, god knows they happen. Just accept it already. If someone killed Deadpool who we know is immortal, that's a mistake, if they say he's not horrificaly scarred under his mask that's a mistake. They make mistakes.. duh de duh duh duh, they're only human afterall.

And you completely avoided the point here.. Hulk has never without aid of some form, defeated Juggernaut. On his own, without assistance of some type, he has never won. Without help, he never wins against him. Without his power suped up to to the point where he had 2 universes of cosmic energy surrounding him, he never came close to beating him one on one, and even that wasn't him, Apocalypse was controlling his mind.. dressed him in Celestial armor and charged him with unimaginable energy levels.. saying that Apocaplypse helped Hulk win that fight would be the understatement of the.... EVER, there's never been a bigger understatement.

Now tell me, flat out, when has Hulk ever.. BY HIMSELF, beaten Juggernaut?

"Alpha, a few posts ago I respected you. That changed within the last few minutes, can you guess why?"

Coz I'm proving your posts wrong?

"No one EVER claimed him to be "mentally unstoppable" and you still aren't getting the "physical invulnerablility" thing either. We've already been over how the one spot in his whole body that seems to be the slightest bit affected by an attack is his eyes.."

Look, you can't say him being hurt, even in the slightest, doesn't matter. If he has been hurt, he's been hurt. So quit denying it for crying out loud. If my ears hurt because I just put it next to a loud speaker, it's not the music doing it, it's the after effects. EG: My ear drums. It's physical pain. Deal with it, or better yet smarten up.

"or that the writer actually made a mistake.. and YES they can make mistakes they are HUMAN afterall.. if a writer says Juggernaut is a mutant when he's not.. then it's a MISTAKE, if an artist colors Hulk purple and the captions say he's green, then it's a MISTAKE. They happen, god knows they happen. Just accept it already. If someone killed Deadpool who we know is immortal, that's a mistake, if they say he's not horrificaly scarred under his mask that's a mistake. They make mistakes.. duh de duh duh duh, they're only human afterall."

Those are appearance mistakes though. Deadpool can be killed and has been. He can just come back is all. He isn't unkillable in the literal sense. Juggernaut has been hurt and it's you who needs to accept it. Coz you're just blaming the multiple writers. You blame Secret Wars, you blame Onslaught saga and now the X-Men comics. Wherever Juggernaut is hurt you claim it's bad writing or a mistake. Stop being foolish.

"And you completely avoided the point here.. Hulk has never without aid of some form, defeated Juggernaut. On his own, without assistance of some type, he has never won. Without help, he never wins against him. Without his power suped up to to the point where he had 2 universes of cosmic energy surrounding him, he never came close to beating him one on one, and even that wasn't him, Apocalypse was controlling his mind.. dressed him in Celestial armor and charged him with unimaginable energy levels.. saying that Apocaplypse helped Hulk win that fight would be the understatement of the.... EVER, there's never been a bigger understatement."

I know this. It is all true. However, you claimed he was unstoppable. This is the point I am arguing and you deny. He is unstoppable to you and to a few others. If this were true, War Hulk wouldn't have been able to beat him. But he did because he's not unstoppable.

"Now tell me, flat out, when has Hulk ever.. BY HIMSELF, beaten Juggernaut?"

I'm a bit tired of the questions always being aimed at Hulk. Now YOU tell ME, when has Juggernaut beaten Hulk by himself? Yeah, different story now isn't it?

-AC

The plain clothes fight. You can argue about trickery all you want. But it was a SOLO effort by Juggernaut. He beat Hulk because Hulk was too stupid to realise he wasn't fighting a normal person and didn't go all out against him like he should have. But he STILL, got his ass beat down, didn't he? That counts under the criteria (unaided victory) whether you like to admit it or not.

If it weren't for the trick, maybe he wouldn't of won. But regardless, it happened the way it did, and Hulk was alone out there.. he's never won alone against Juggernaut and odds are he wouldn't have there either.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So he felt physical pain. End of story really. Permanent or not, the duration doesn't matter. He felt it, which you said was impossible and then admitted had happened. Contradiction. He is vulnerable to physical harm.

i'm not so sure that he felt pain from the actual sonics. that more or less disoriented him. but when nimrod was jamming his nueral impulses now that did him in. but you can disorient juggernaut, because he does posess a normal equiliberium.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

So if we remove all that BS you just wrote, all that point dodging. It comes down to, do you believe Juggernaut is unstoppable? Yes. Did you just admit to him being stopped? Yes. Was Hulk powered up by other means? Yes. Does this change the fact that the man you claimed was unstoppable, was infact stopped? No. He isn't unstoppable then.

well under given circumstances he was stopped. had hulk not been engulfed in the other worldly energy he wouldnt have been stopped. even narration says "and despite wars unimaginable might and motivation... the juggernaut continues to push his foe back... until" hulk is enveloped completely in the energy. had hulk not had this energy, he would have been pushed clear back to the ocean, through the ocean, back across the next continent, until juggernaut finally stopped -himself-. hulk couldnt do it with pure physical strength, and its quite evident if you read the comic.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Show me where Juggernaut has lifted a 150 billion ton mountain (I just know you'll cry bad writing just like every Juggernaut fan does. Funny, they do that with Onslaught to) and then you can claim that he is stronger.

well, hes never been put underneath a mount to lift it. but he has been just as strong/stronger than a more powerful incarnation that appeared in that particular issue. Juggernaut DID match a completely raged out hulk blow for blow. stop disputing this FACT.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Well I just proved, as did Vash, that Juggernaut can be hurt by extremely loud sounds. Sensory pain that is manifesting physically. So let's stop the "He's unstoppable and immune to physical pain" rants. Hulk has proven to be able to produce extremely loud sounds by smashing his arms together. More than enough to hurt Juggernaut physically, if you say his punches cannot.

well i just addressed this, i think the sound disoriented him, then nimrod used a different weapon all together to down juggernaut. i think you need to -read- the issue. its amazing how many times i have to challenge you to do just that isnt it???

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Hulk isn't the smartest knife in the drawer though is he? He wouldn't stop and think "Hmm, this guy sure looks normal besides his power. Maybe it's Juggernaut." You dodged my point. If Juggernaut is so able to beat Hulk, why not go face to face in normal clothing? Why do you say that point doesn't matter? Coz you know the truth.

well, often in comic history, villains rely on trickery. but in issue 403 juggernaut was more than read to go at it again, once hulk saw who it was in the armor. juggernaut won, fair and square, on his own power. he overpowered hulks healing factor and beat him to a pulp. doesnt change the fact that he -can- do it again.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Nightcrawler. For one.

this is something else thats misunderstood, juggernauts body is completely immune to physical harm. his skin, is unbreakable just like his armor (which is actually cloth) *save onslaught sigh*. if you could point us again in the right direction of juggernaut actually being hurt (except his eyes) then i'd be glad to hear of it to.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Not displaying your full strength is one thing. Having no "full strength" is another. Juggernaut's strength does not increase unless he is not using it all and chooses to go higher. Hulk's through emotion, does keep increasing.

well still, that doesnt change the fact that juggernaut matched a raging hulk blow for blow in issue #172 in the pages of hulks own book.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

An Immortal would have survived. You claimed him to be such.

well, i'm not sure of that. eternity is above galactus at raw power, and he is the embodiement of the universe. if he wanted to wipe out the universe... eveything would go. unless LT inverviened. juggernaut can sustain as much punishment as the reality around him, but eternity is just a being that can destroy it, and juggernaut along with it if he wished to do so. also galactus has been stated as being powerful enough to wipe out the universe at his peak level of power. so why wouldnt eternity be capable of this particular feat???

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

"And like I said, Juggernaut doesn't need the armor for anything other than superpowered clothing. He not only fought Hulk in streetclothes, but Colossus as well. He let Colossus do his worse on him, and then laid him out with a single punch. "

Hulk never really fought back and Colossus is no Hulk.

but colossus is no pansy either, he stopped she hulks punchs cold. hulk was trying to fight back. the point is both have wins and losses, but under unusual circumstances. juggernaut is a match for hulk and juggernaut is capable of knocking hulk out on his own power. but hulk has never proven capable of knocking juggernaut out period......

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

My point was, he was stopped. This supposedly unstoppable man.

i dunno how many times i can tell you the same thing before you finally let it sink in. juggernaut was only stopped because his magics didnt function against the other worldly energy that hulk was completely engulfed in.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Regular Hulk now is actually stronger than he's ever been.

prove that he was more powerful than war. i'd like definitive proof of this. cause i know you cant provide it. war was casually tossing a pyramid around like a baseball. show hulk ever doing that.....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

But....he must do if he has it right? I mean the writers think he does.

well he is more often than not shown NOT using the forcefield. thors punchs were hitting directly against his body, until juggernauts magic returned, then stopped his punch cold about a foot away from his body. juggernaut has never done that when involving the hulk. again, please point us in the direction of him using it with a picture, or an issue number against hulk. cause i'd like to see that one too.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

All Juggernaut fans hate the Onslaught saga. How coincidental.

well i dont actually hate the onslaught story arc in particular. great character, great powers, great motivation. but juggernaut was dealt with improperly compared to previously written material. if you are a juggernaut fan, of coarse you are not going to like it. just like hulk getting knocked out by a regular python..... please, that should have never happened. regardless of the circumstances.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

He can be and I gave you an example of how.

nope, not true.

[/B][/QUOTE]

And JF just proved my point better than I did. It seems, yes, Hulk realized who he was up against eventually, but it didn't matter, the beating that followed was so severe that his vaunted healing factor couldn't keep up with the damage and he was knocked cold.

There ya go. As far as solo efforts go.. It's Juggernaut 1 Hulk 0

"The plain clothes fight. You can argue about trickery all you want. But it was a SOLO effort by Juggernaut. He beat Hulk because Hulk was too stupid to realise he wasn't fighting a normal person and didn't go all out against him like he should have. But he STILL, got his ass beat down, didn't he? That counts under the criteria (unaided victory)"

Why didn't Juggernaut go up there like normal then? Coz he wouldn't have won that's why. He knows it and the writers know it. I know it happened how it happened. However, that's aided isn't it? Aided by trickery, coz.......he was.

"well under given circumstances he was stopped. "

So......he's not unstoppable then. This doesn't need to be established any more. Should they change his bio to, unstoppable besides War Hulk?

"Juggernaut DID match a completely raged out hulk blow for blow. stop disputing this FACT."

I wont dispute that he matched him. Completely enraged Hulk has never been seen, ever. He himself has admitted this. So Juggernaut has never matched a totally raged out Hulk. Stop disputing THAT fact.

"well i just addressed this, i think the sound disoriented him, then nimrod used a different weapon all together to down juggernaut. i think you need to -read- the issue. its amazing how many times i have to challenge you to do just that isnt it???"

Your assumption powers never cease to amaze me. Yes, I haven't read the issue just because I don't agree with what you think. You think he disorientated him, I think he didn't. Neither does Vash who is fighting his heart out to stay in this debate. So....it's all down to opinion then isn't it?

"well, often in comic history, villains rely on trickery."

Villains who claim and believe theirselves to be unstoppable and un-harmable? Nope.

"this is something else thats misunderstood, juggernauts body is completely immune to physical harm. his skin, is unbreakable just like his armor (which is actually cloth) *save onslaught sigh*. if you could point us again in the right direction of juggernaut actually being hurt (except his eyes) then i'd be glad to hear of it to."

Wait, except his eyes? Why? Why "except his eyes"? Because they are physical and he was hurt through them? I'm not saying there was any time other than, just that this time he got hurt. So yeah, not immune to physical harm COMPLETELY is he? By your own admission then dismission.

"well, i'm not sure of that. eternity is above galactus at raw power, and he is the embodiement of the universe. if he wanted to wipe out the universe... eveything would go. unless LT inverviened. juggernaut can sustain as much punishment as the reality around him, but eternity is just a being that can destroy it, and juggernaut along with it if he wished to do so. also galactus has been stated as being powerful enough to wipe out the universe at his peak level of power. so why wouldnt eternity be capable of this particular feat??"

Juggernaut was claimed to be an immortal. He was proven not to be in that comic. Trying to keep on topic here.

"juggernaut is a match for hulk and juggernaut is capable of knocking hulk out on his own power. but hulk has never proven capable of knocking juggernaut out period...... "

And here is your downfall. You said a few pages back, that you refuse to deny that Juggernaut is not capable of lifting the mountain...correct? Even though he hasn't proven able to. So, because Hulk has never proven to knock Juggernaut out, yet we all know his strength is more than capable of doing so, why are you now contradicting your views? Because it applies to Hulk? Likely. So I shall take YOUR standpoint and say that just because he hasn't done it, doesn't mean he cannot.

"i dunno how many times i can tell you the same thing before you finally let it sink in. juggernaut was only stopped because his magics didnt function against the other worldly energy that hulk was completely engulfed in."

But you........you said it can only happen if he's separate from the gem. Only then can his magics fail. You also claimed he has punched through realities. So why would it fail magically against War Hulk? He was stopped. He's not unstoppable. That's the biggest fact here and you're the one not accepting it. You're admitting it then trying to pass it off.

"prove that he was more powerful than war. i'd like definitive proof of this. cause i know you cant provide it. war was casually tossing a pyramid around like a baseball. show hulk ever doing that....."

I mean Regular Hulk is at the strongest Regular Hulk period ever.

"well i dont actually hate the onslaught story arc in particular. great character, great powers, great motivation. but juggernaut was dealt with improperly compared to previously written material. if you are a juggernaut fan, of coarse you are not going to like it. just like hulk getting knocked out by a regular python..... please, that should have never happened. regardless of the circumstances."

So basically, everything was cool but the treatment of Juggernaut? What BS. Juggernaut being whooped by Onslaught is so far a different deal tto Hulk getting beat by a python it isn't even funny. Not liking it and erasing it from happening in your mind are two totally different things. I didn't like Surfer getting a beat down from Earth men. He wasn't harmed or any shit obviously, but the writers saw fit to do it. We are not in the position to say to them, about THEIR creation "Well that wouldn't happen." If they say it would, it would. Coz they created them.

"nope, not true."

Yes, true. You deny these evidence pieces but yes, I gave proof. The ear thing. I think it hurt him, you don't as usual.

-AC

Man, you got served and you know it.

Juggernaut wasn't "aided by trickery" anymore than Hulk is "aided" by being green. And it wouldn't of mattered if he was in his full armor or not.. he proved to be able to hit Hulk hard enough and relentless enough to wear him down, he may get stronger when he's madder, but he don't get more durable or heal any faster. But that's all beside the point, question was.. had Juggernaut ever beaten Hulk by himself? And the answer was, he did. Case closed.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why didn't Juggernaut go up there like normal then? Coz he wouldn't have won that's why. He knows it and the writers know it. I know it happened how it happened. However, that's aided isn't it? Aided by trickery, coz.......he was.

because he used his brain for once. still doesnt change the fact that that juggernaut is capable of defeating hulk on his own accord. he used his own power. he wasnt upgraded, hulk wasnt depowered. hulk lost.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

So......he's not unstoppable then. This doesn't need to be established any more. Should they change his bio to, unstoppable besides War Hulk?

no its fine the way it is. hes unstoppable by a physical force resisting him. he cant be stopped that way. under certain circumstances he can. you need to learn the differences.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I wont dispute that he matched him. Completely enraged Hulk has never been seen, ever. He himself has admitted this. So Juggernaut has never matched a totally raged out Hulk. Stop disputing THAT fact.

so, juggernaut says hes unstoppable, but you still say thats untrue. you are also contradicting yourself again. the writers said hulk was on the virge of insanity he was so mad. he should have proven superior to juggernaut. but he didnt. of coarse its bad writing though..... sound farmiliar???

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Your assumption powers never cease to amaze me. Yes, I haven't read the issue just because I don't agree with what you think. You think he disorientated him, I think he didn't. Neither does Vash who is fighting his heart out to stay in this debate. So....it's all down to opinion then isn't it?

no actually if you read bios they will even tell you 2 weapons were used. one was to disorient him, the other was to jam his nueral impulses. read a little more would ya. you yourself said you dont know much about juggernaut, and it sure does show.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Villains who claim and believe theirselves to be unstoppable and un-harmable? Nope.

hulk claims himself to be the strongest one there is also..... NOPE. this works 2 ways doesnt it??

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Wait, except his eyes? Why? Why "except his eyes"? Because they are physical and he was hurt through them? I'm not saying there was any time other than, just that this time he got hurt. So yeah, not immune to physical harm COMPLETELY is he? By your own admission then dismission.

because it's his body that is indestructable. to each his own. his body has stood up to EVERYTHING thrown at it. but his eyes have not. so you can see the difference im sure. although, i think technically his eyes are part of his body.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Juggernaut was claimed to be an immortal. He was proven not to be in that comic. Trying to keep on topic here.

well all the eternals and every other "immortal" were wiped from existance. i'm still not sure where you are going with this. even LT was wiped from existence, and he is defenitly immortal.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

And here is your downfall. You said a few pages back, that you refuse to deny that Juggernaut is not capable of lifting the mountain...correct? Even though he hasn't proven able to. So, because Hulk has never proven to knock Juggernaut out, yet we all know his strength is more than capable of doing so, why are you now contradicting your views? Because it applies to Hulk? Likely. So I shall take YOUR standpoint and say that just because he hasn't done it, doesn't mean he cannot.

well gee pops i think yur right..... not..... Juggernaut has proven capable of knocking hulk out. nobody has proven capable of knocking juggernaut out when dealing with physical force. (hurry refer to onslaught, the savior) i'm one step ahead of you and we are running circles here.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

But you........you said it can only happen if he's separate from the gem. Only then can his magics fail. You also claimed he has punched through realities. So why would it fail magically against War Hulk? He was stopped. He's not unstoppable. That's the biggest fact here and you're the one not accepting it. You're admitting it then trying to pass it off.

he wasnt stopped with physical force though. i thought it was quite obvious. but apparently i dont know what i'm talking about. oh wait, its you. one more time i'm going to try to explain this. juggernauts power is based on the laws of marvels main stream reality. it doesnt function against the other worldly energy that hulk had engulfed himself in. is it really that hard to understand....... Honestly???

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I mean Regular Hulk is at the strongest Regular Hulk period ever.

well i believe war is the most powerful version of hulk seen to date. i'm not sure where you are going with this one either.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

So basically, everything was cool but the treatment of Juggernaut? What BS. Juggernaut being whooped by Onslaught is so far a different deal tto Hulk getting beat by a python it isn't even funny. Not liking it and erasing it from happening in your mind are two totally different things. I didn't like Surfer getting a beat down from Earth men. He wasn't harmed or any shit obviously, but the writers saw fit to do it. We are not in the position to say to them, about THEIR creation "Well that wouldn't happen." If they say it would, it would. Coz they created them.

it would be ok if they explained exactly how onslaught did it. how is it that he is capable of doing what nobody else could do (including hulk, thor, and forces that would devastate galactus, and gave a celestial pause). just exactly how is that fair??? they were completely ignoring previously written material.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, true. You deny these evidence pieces but yes, I gave proof. The ear thing. I think it hurt him, you don't as usual.

it didnt hurt him, you havnt even read it, so why does that make your point valid???

"I think it hurt him" is not proof.

All your proof about him being hurt is just you "thinking" it hurt him. Just like everyone who tried to hurt him "thought" it would work.

"Man, you got served and you know it. "

Pardon? You're hiding behind JuggernautFan who is a much more knowledged comic fan than you are. I, for the most part, enjoy debating with him. You are literal nonsense.

"Juggernaut wasn't "aided by trickery" anymore than Hulk is "aided" by being green. And it wouldn't of mattered if he was in his full armor or not.. he proved to be able to hit Hulk hard enough and relentless enough to wear him down, he may get stronger when he's madder, but he don't get more durable or heal any faster. But that's all beside the point, question was.. had Juggernaut ever beaten Hulk by himself? And the answer was, he did. Case closed."

Do you ever read your posts back and realise how nonsensical they are? You said yourself that had he been in armour he may not have won, but now JuggernautFan is here, you have changed. He is saying things you didn't even know and you're fronting like you knew em. Cowardly.

"because he used his brain for once"

The brain he uses to formulate the words "I'm unstoppable and can't be beaten"? Surely he would have known he was not gonna lose and strolled up there normally if he needed no aid.

"no its fine the way it is. hes unstoppable by a physical force resisting him. he cant be stopped that way. under certain circumstances he can. you need to learn the differences."

No man you need to understand something. War Hulk stopped him. But wait, you say, that was Apocalypse helping. Yeah true. However, if you think your little "no force on Earth" rule helps. It doesn't, coz En Sabah Nur was Egyptian. His force is capable of stopping Juggernaut, hence why War Hulk did. He also existed at the time of Cytorrak if I remember correctly, being an immortal. So that notion wasn't even correct when it was made by Cytorrak.

"so, juggernaut says hes unstoppable, but you still say thats untrue. you are also contradicting yourself again. the writers said hulk was on the virge of insanity he was so mad. he should have proven superior to juggernaut. but he didnt. of coarse its bad writing though..... sound farmiliar???"

Juggernaut says he is unstoppable, but factually he is not. Hulk has never been at his peak because factually he hasn't. Insanity is a state of mind and we all know that, it's a totally different ball game. I'm not denying he was extremely mad. Just that it's not possible for Jug to have fought a completely raged Hulk. I never said it was bad writing. You use that argument more than I do. Secret Wars, Onslaught, Nightcrawler. I've used it once, just once.

"no actually if you read bios they will even tell you 2 weapons were used. one was to disorient him, the other was to jam his nueral impulses. read a little more would ya. you yourself said you dont know much about juggernaut, and it sure does show. "

Why did it disorientate him? Why did it cause him so much (we wont say pain coz you flip when people refer to Juggernaut with that word) disturbance then? Unbalanced equilibrium would never have been JUST enough to unbalance Juggernaut. That would have been shit writing in Juggernaut's defence. So there must have been something that the disorientation caused. Like pain maybe.

"hulk claims himself to be the strongest one there is also..... NOPE. this works 2 ways doesnt it??"

In terms of physical strength yes he is.

"well all the eternals and every other "immortal" were wiped from existance. i'm still not sure where you are going with this. even LT was wiped from existence, and he is defenitly immortal."

True enough, my bad. Juggernaut was still toast though. So whoever claimed he was immortal, was wrong. He is not an immortal by any means.

"well gee pops i think yur right..... not..... Juggernaut has proven capable of knocking hulk out. nobody has proven capable of knocking juggernaut out when dealing with physical force. (hurry refer to onslaught, the savior) i'm one step ahead of you and we are running circles here."

I referred to literal KO once. Why are you revolving around it? The main argument here is his strength comparing to Hulk and his unstoppability. Both were and are capable of being proven, wrong. Technically. Oh and by the way, you did kinda sway me with the feigned submitting to downfall and then saying not. However I do remember it was me who pioneered that. Nice to see my workings are giving your debates the comedic edge they so sorely need.

"juggernauts power is based on the laws of marvels main stream reality. it doesnt function against the other worldly energy that hulk had engulfed himself in. is it really that hard to understand....... Honestly???"

Cool. So if this is true, would it be silly to call him totally UNSTOPPABLE then? Coz that is an all inclusive word. Unstoppable. If you claim to be unstoppable, it means you cannot be stopped doing things by ANY means. Nuff said. Coz regardless of powering up or anything, he has been halted. You have admitted it.

"well i believe war is the most powerful version of hulk seen to date. i'm not sure where you are going with this one either."

Holy cow! You claim I don't get things and that I'm an idiot?! You're about one post away from safety scissors. When I say regular Hulk I mean the Hulk in the ongoing comic now. The one without being unaltered. In his normal form, his base strength has increased. Would you like me to perform this notion via the medium of a nursery rhyme for you? Or do you understand me now.

"it would be ok if they explained exactly how onslaught did it. how is it that he is capable of doing what nobody else could do (including hulk, thor, and forces that would devastate galactus, and gave a celestial pause). "

Fair point. However, readers or not, if they decide something is right, then whether we like it or not, it's right. Because it remains in continuity. You hang onto your "He withstood Godforce that sent Galactus running". I mean, come on man. Does that not strike you as dodgy writing? The fact that Juggernaut isn't susceptible to something that Galactus is? In all honesty? I didn't like that but it happened so and I can do nothing about it. I personally believe, even if they did explain it, that you'd be here saying "he can't be hurt".

"it didnt hurt him, you havnt even read it, so why does that make your point valid???"

A) I've read it.

B) I have gave reasons for my view.

-AC

Alpha Centauri, I think you're out of your league. JuggernautFan is just putting you to shame, and it's hilarious.

Alpha Centauri, just learn to live with it. "the Hulk can not defeat Juggernaut alone."

man shut up! youre a gay-ass idiot! Alpha knows more than you...and has a better name.

Mane, I appreciate the support but no real need to murder the dude. He has his opinion.

Which is wrong by the way. While there will likely be no outcome in this thread as we're clearly not gonna think any different, it's not become a thread of who would win. More so a battling of arguments about powers and abilities. Which is fine with me coz for the most part, it's been a fun debate with JuggernautFan. I've said multiple times I respect him for taking it this far. Vash however, has the comic knowledge of a barnyard hen.

So in conclusion, no JF isn't showing me up and please don't try to instigate arguments.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

"because he used his brain for once"

The brain he uses to formulate the words "I'm unstoppable and can't be beaten"? Surely he would have known he was not gonna lose and strolled up there normally if he needed no aid.

like i said. in the next issue, he was more than willing to go at it again with hulk, once hulk figured out who he was dealing with. he also iced piecemeal *spelling* in one punch, where hulk had much more trouble with him later on. he doesnt need trickery to beat hulk. he laid him out in less than 1 issue of fighting, and he -could- do it again.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No man you need to understand something. War Hulk stopped him. But wait, you say, that was Apocalypse helping. Yeah true. However, if you think your little "no force on Earth" rule helps. It doesn't, coz En Sabah Nur was Egyptian. His force is capable of stopping Juggernaut, hence why War Hulk did. He also existed at the time of Cytorrak if I remember correctly, being an immortal. So that notion wasn't even correct when it was made by Cytorrak.

but war hulk did -not- stop him by using physical force. that is what i'm trying to emphasize here. apocalypse in the very same issue, also questioned wheather his power was greater than juggernauts in that issue. but if you are talking about cyttorak that is something entirely different, juggernaut only possesses a small fraction of his power. also, apocalypse has never had a run in with juggernaut, so you cant say he would be able to stop him. if he tried physically, he would fail. but he could think of something that could stop him i'm sure.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Juggernaut says he is unstoppable, but factually he is not. Hulk has never been at his peak because factually he hasn't. Insanity is a state of mind and we all know that, it's a totally different ball game. I'm not denying he was extremely mad. Just that it's not possible for Jug to have fought a completely raged Hulk. I never said it was bad writing. You use that argument more than I do. Secret Wars, Onslaught, Nightcrawler. I've used it once, just once.

i didnt say nightcrawler was bad writing. but you have said that secret wars was bad writing, and youve also refered to juggernaut being unstoppable as bad writing. plus several other feats of durability that juggernaut has shown in the past. or maybe i'm mistaking you for somebody else. but actually, juggernaut hasnt been stopped (factually as you put it) by physical force alone. hulk has shown a peak, he was mad and he still wasnt stronger than juggernaut. if anything, juggernaut being unstoppable is just as true as hulk having no limits to his strength. i still think hulk was pretty damn pissed. on the virge of insanity with rage sounds like he was pretty well raged out......

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Why did it disorientate him? Why did it cause him so much (we wont say pain coz you flip when people refer to Juggernaut with that word) disturbance then? Unbalanced equilibrium would never have been JUST enough to unbalance Juggernaut. That would have been shit writing in Juggernaut's defence. So there must have been something that the disorientation caused. Like pain maybe.

it disorients him because of the equiliberium. if hulk hits juggernaut hard enough (doesnt cause him pain) but it can upset the liquids in the inner ear. juggernaut is no more immune from that than you and i. even hulk can be unbalanced this way. i'm pretty sure that most every human/earth character can because they all have equiliberiums. except spiderman of coarse.... that all has to do with sonics.... then nimrod used a different weapon all together. its called a ""synapse dislocuter" Which blocks a person's limbs from receiving messages from their brain. that is what did juggernaut in. not the actual sonics. again, that only disoriented him.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

In terms of physical strength yes he is.

hmmm, well the destoryer and juggernaut have proven just as capable of physical strength as hulk. i'd even be willing to be that mangog is just as strong/stronger than hulk also. he is not the strongest one there is.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

True enough, my bad. Juggernaut was still toast though. So whoever claimed he was immortal, was wrong. He is not an immortal by any means.

well then by this logic, nobody is immortal. everybody has a limit, and nobody is completely safe. unless you control the heart. so if you are talking about that kind of levels of power. then nobody is immortal.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I referred to literal KO once. Why are you revolving around it? The main argument here is his strength comparing to Hulk and his unstoppability. Both were and are capable of being proven, wrong. Technically. Oh and by the way, you did kinda sway me with the feigned submitting to downfall and then saying not. However I do remember it was me who pioneered that. Nice to see my workings are giving your debates the comedic edge they so sorely need.

and why do you revolve around onslaught?? around and around we go. i think the issue of strength is that juggernaut is stronger until hulk is sufficiently raged, and juggernaut is pretty much unstoppable. except under unusual circumstances. how about that for a compromise?? lol, and i'm glad i learned a trick or 2 from the man (thanks alpha). i'll long remember your ways, and use them to make MY posts more interesting.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Cool. So if this is true, would it be silly to call him totally UNSTOPPABLE then? Coz that is an all inclusive word. Unstoppable. If you claim to be unstoppable, it means you cannot be stopped doing things by ANY means. Nuff said. Coz regardless of powering up or anything, he has been halted. You have admitted it.

ok, i understand. i can see your side of the story now, and how you are thinking about it. but i only admitted that he was haulted because of unusual circumstances. had the heroes reborn universe not been created, it would have been a different story.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Holy cow! You claim I don't get things and that I'm an idiot?! You're about one post away from safety scissors. When I say regular Hulk I mean the Hulk in the ongoing comic now. The one without being unaltered. In his normal form, his base strength has increased. Would you like me to perform this notion via the medium of a nursery rhyme for you? Or do you understand me now.

you do nursery rhymes?? i suppose you are a male nurse to eh?? not to many men in your profession is there focker??

Fair point. However, readers or not, if they decide something is right, then whether we like it or not, it's right. Because it remains in continuity. You hang onto your "He withstood Godforce that sent Galactus running". I mean, come on man. Does that not strike you as dodgy writing? The fact that Juggernaut isn't susceptible to something that Galactus is? In all honesty? I didn't like that but it happened so and I can do nothing about it. I personally believe, even if they did explain it, that you'd be here saying "he can't be hurt".[/B][/QUOTE]

well its about attributes. juggernauts main gimmick is his durability. galactus is a far cry from being the most invulnerable person out there. so no it doesnt surprise me. but in all fairness you said it, juggernaut withstood it, and there is nothing you can do about it. well if they would explain it, i'm sure there would be another loop hole in the system. there would be a reason WHY onslaught could do what nobody else is capable of. for cripse sakes hulk couldnt do it, and hulk defeated onslaught. so there has to be another piece to this puzzle.