Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Yeah Juggernaut is just a small portion of Cyttorak. So your saying if Hulk went Worldbreaker he could beat cyttorak or what?
http://s30.photobucket.com/user/Hulk3389/media/hulk457-stopsjuggernaut.jpg.html
By the way, no one is saying Hulk can beat Cytorrak.
Originally posted by -Pr-
How does that contradict what I said?
The entire scene depicts built-up momentum, which along with the smack on the back from Hulk, was the reason Juggernaut couldn't stop himself.
So, pretty much proof that Hulk stopped Juggernaut's forward momentum.
Originally posted by janus77
What you said was that Hulk didn't stop Juggernaut's forward momentum, whereas the comic shows it did (the locked pose and then when Hulk releases Juggernaut for the bfr) and Xavier states that it was beginning to break the foundations of the mansion.The entire scene depicts built-up momentum, which along with the smack on the back from Hulk, was the reason Juggernaut couldn't stop himself.
So, pretty much proof that Hulk stopped Juggernaut's forward momentum.
That's not what I said, though.
Originally posted by janus77
No, the rest of the fight was Hulk getting up and engaging Juggernaut and then stopping his forward momentum (as Xavier states). And then, when Juggernaut was running on the spot long enough, Hulk moves aside and gives him a pat on the back.Juggernaut attacked Hulk, when Hulk was not looking, you should (I suspect you do) know this. Hulk had shifted focus and was getting on with the job of capturing Xavier.
Hulk stated that he wasn't there for any of the X-Men, he never hit any of them with lethal force or did them any injuries he knew they could not recover from. The entire arc was filled with comments on how Hulk never kills, always holds back, always pulls his punches. And WWH was a demonstration of how true that is.
You don't have an argument, you're wrong and you just need to accept it.
Really? Because this happened right before Jugs pounding on Hulk.
Doesn't look like a sucker punch to me.
Now please show me where Xavier states that Hulk stopped Jugs forward momentum.
Originally posted by Odekahn
Really? Because this happened right before Jugs pounding on Hulk.
Doesn't look like a sucker punch to me.Now please show me where Xavier states that Hulk stopped Jugs forward momentum.
Xavier says that Juggernaut is breaking the foundations of the mansion. Hulk redirected Juggernaut's forward momentum, into the ground. Hence the screaming Xavier.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^But he never says that Juggs was stopped and to break the foundations it wouldn't be necessary that he stopped. To me it looked like he was slowed by the Hulk but Hulk wasn't able to stop him, that's why Hulk himself said: "Nothing stops the Juggernaut? Fine.".
Not just that, but they were playing Mercy in a feat of strength. Then Hulk let go, Cain continued forward, his momentum built, and Cain couldn't stop himself.
And super strong characters toppling nearby buildings via trading blows isn't new.
He warned them that if they did not stop they would undermine the foundation of the institute or some such.
Originally posted by Odekahn
Really? Because this happened right before Jugs pounding on Hulk.Doesn't look like a sucker punch to me.
Now please show me where Xavier states that Hulk stopped Jugs forward momentum.
You continue to place them in a scenario where innocents were at risk. This type of argument would favor Cain, because Banner is not a murderer. This is why he held back. It even states that he did this later during the heart of the Monster arc. I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept?
Originally posted by janus77
That's exactly what a surprise attack is. Hulk looks back and Juggernaut attacks without any further ado. That's all it was.Xavier says that Juggernaut is breaking the foundations of the mansion. Hulk redirected Juggernaut's forward momentum, into the ground. Hence the screaming Xavier.
No, he was preventing Cain from gaining any forward momentum.
And they were both face to face swinging at each other before the scan I linked of Jugs laying into Hulk. You are using "surprise attack" like jugs just sucker punched Hulk and he wouldn't have been able to hurt Hulk if Hulk was ready.
That's not how it happened and is also misleading to anyone reading who hasn't read the comic.
Originally posted by Stoic
He warned them that if they did not stop they would undermine the foundation of the institute or some such.You continue to place them in a scenario where innocents were at risk. This type of argument would favor Cain, because Banner is not a murderer. This is why he held back. It even states that he did this later during the heart of the Monster arc. I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept?
I don't know why it's hard for you to accept that I'm only discussing that particular fight, in which you claim Hulk was holding back.
Ok fine. Hulk was holding back. And if the fight would have continued another page, Hulk would have still been in the same situation (not there for Cain but for Charles) and he would have continued to "hold back."
Within the parameters of the question asked, I stand by my initial answer. Juggernaut would win.
Originally posted by Odekahn
No, he was preventing Cain from gaining any forward momentum.
Originally posted by Odekahn
And they were both face to face swinging at each other before the scan I linked of Jugs laying into Hulk. You are using "surprise attack" like jugs just sucker punched Hulk and he wouldn't have been able to hurt Hulk if Hulk was ready.That's not how it happened and is also misleading to anyone reading who hasn't read the comic.
You're presenting it as if Juggernaut was causing damage to Hulk or had caused any damage to Hulk. Talk about misleading ... ❌.
Originally posted by Odekahn
I don't know why it's hard for you to accept that I'm only discussing that particular fight, in which you claim Hulk was holding back.Ok fine. Hulk was holding back. And if the fight would have continued another page, Hulk would have still been in the same situation (not there for Cain but for Charles) and he would have continued to "hold back."
Within the parameters of the question asked, I stand by my initial answer. Juggernaut would win.
You're wrong because this would not be about Charles but about the Hulk wanting to beat the life out of Cain in a neutral zone where no one would be at risk of dying. This is what you are trying to steer away from, because you know that you are wrong here. In a forum fight where it is asking who would win, we assume that there would be no hindering factors to stop the characters from going all out, and while facing an opponent like Cain, the Hulk would come with his A Game. However it would be too much for Cain to compensate for, and thus he would be rendered impotent like others of his strength level were. the proof is there, and then there is your opinion.
Originally posted by janus77
I've never seen Juggernaut need to build up "forward momentum", he just has an enchantment that kicks in as soon as he starts moving, which is why Hulk stopping him from moving any further forward, was redirecting that momentum into the ground.The scan you linked shows Hulk turning around, then Juggernaut states his name and attacks. Hulk was just caught off-guard.
You're presenting it as if Juggernaut was causing damage to Hulk or had caused any damage to Hulk. Talk about misleading ... ❌.
They are face to face trading blows BEFORE jugs takes the upperhand. How is that being caught off guard? Hulk knows he's there, he's talking to Cain as he walks from the rubble.
Also, Cain was pressing against the ground for leverage, Hulk wasn't redirecting his force. Hulk didn't do that until he let go of Jugs (allowing him to start forward) and moved out of his way.
We never saw Jugs charging and Hulk put his hand out and stop him dead in his tracks. We see them trade blows, then play Mercy, then Hulk let's go of Jugs.
It's like a parked train with its breaks on trying to get started vs a train in full motion and then suddenly the brakes get slammed on. It's two different situations.
Originally posted by Stoic
You're wrong because this would not be about Charles but about the Hulk wanting to beat the life out of Cain in a neutral zone where no one would be at risk of dying. This is what you are trying to steer away from, because you know that you are wrong here. In a forum fight where it is asking who would win, we assume that there would be no hindering factors to stop the characters from going all out, and while facing an opponent like Cain, the Hulk would come with his A Game. However it would be too much for Cain to compensate for, and thus he would be rendered impotent like others of his strength level were. the proof is there, and then there is your opinion.
I'm not wrong because this is the question that I have been answering.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
What if the fight below were forced to a conclusion. Someone must be KOed or die. How would it have ended?
Originally posted by Odekahn
They are face to face trading blows BEFORE jugs takes the upperhand. How is that being caught off guard? Hulk knows he's there, he's talking to Cain as he walks from the rubble.Also, Cain was pressing against the ground for leverage, Hulk wasn't redirecting his force. Hulk didn't do that until he let go of Jugs (allowing him to start forward) and moved out of his way.
We never saw Jugs charging and Hulk put his hand out and stop him dead in his tracks. We see them trade blows, then play Mercy, then Hulk let's go of Jugs.
It's like a parked train with its breaks on trying to get started vs a train in full motion and then suddenly the brakes get slammed on. It's two different situations.
The Hulk also said that he did not have time for this. you are also steering away from the neutral battle zone idea that forum fights are built upon by placing them within a controlled setting of your choosing. Cain would have the advantage, because Banner would not want to risk hurting innocents, which was pointed out during the entire WW Hulk arc. In a forum match where both are not holding back, the Hulk would dominate Cain.
Originally posted by Stoic
The Hulk also said that he did not have time for this. you are also steering away from the neutral battle zone idea that forum fights are built upon by placing them within a controlled setting of your choosing. Cain would have the advantage, because Banner would not want to risk hurting innocents, which was pointed out during the entire WW Hulk arc. In a forum match where both are not holding back, the Hulk would dominate Cain.
I understand that's your opinion, but that's not the question that was asked. The question was specific.
What if that battle didn't end in bfr? I answered in accordance with what went on in that particular story.
It's not "my setting" as I didn't write the book nor ask the question.
Originally posted by Odekahn
I'm not wrong because this is the question that I have been answering.
This would mean that there were no innocents around to be harmed. And the Hulk would be allowed to go full throttle. Unless the intent of the OP was to nerf the Hulk from going all out. This is something that you are continuously trying to avoid. The Hulk held back the entire time. this was stated later, and by this knowledge, you should automatically realize that the Hulk is the greater of the two, and I mean by leaps and bounds. Cain has a chance if the Hulk is holding back, but even the scene that you want to stick to, has the Hulk winning the battle via BFR.
There wasn't one time during that X-Men story of WW Hulk that Banner went all out. He sat there and toyed with them all. This includes him clowning Cain. I believe that the OP is asking what would happen if they went all out.
Originally posted by Stoic
This would mean that there were no innocents around to be harmed. And the Hulk would be allowed to go full throttle. Unless the intent of the OP was to nerf the Hulk from going all out. This is something that you are continuously trying to avoid. The Hulk held back the entire time. this was stated later, and by this knowledge, you should automatically realize that the Hulk is the greater of the two, and I mean by leaps and bounds. Cain has a chance if the Hulk is holding back, but even the scene that you want to stick to, has the Hulk winning the battle via BFR.There wasn't one time during that X-Men story of WW Hulk that Banner went all out. He sat there and toyed with them all. This includes him clowning Cain. I believe that the OP is asking what would happen if they went all out.
I realize that it was LATER stated that Hulk was holding back, even though he says he's going to kill Juggernaut mid fight before deciding he didn't "have time" for it.
And you don't get to change the question that was asked.
"What if the fight below were forced to a conclusion. Someone must be KOed or die."
The question is placing them within that setting and asking for a conclusion had the fight continued.
Originally posted by Odekahn
I realize that it was LATER stated that Hulk was holding back, even though he says he's going to kill Juggernaut mid fight before deciding he didn't "have time" for it.And you don't get to change the question that was asked.
The question is placing them within that setting and asking for a conclusion had the fight continued.
Let's move onto some canonical features of this version of the Hulk shall we?
1. He was touted as being the most powerful version of the Hulk on panel, and lived up to it. This is not opinion but hard fact.
2. War Hulk was able to defeat Cain, and overpowered him to prove this. the Green Scar as I mention in point 1 was said to be more powerful. He was even more powerful the the version of Hulk that broke Onslaught's shell. Onslaught had Cain trembling in fear, and apparently beat the mess out of him, and sent him flying miles from where the mugging began. This is canonical.
Now let's go back to the OP, and try to figure out if Cain would even be able to affect the Hulk if there were no innocents around to be hurt. Cain is not on the same level in any sense.
Now let's nail this coffin shut.
The entire time that WW Hulk went on it was stated that he held back on panel which you agreed to. The OP gave me the idea that the Hulk would fight to the best of his ability as would Cain, but Cain would be sorely lacking in several areas.
Strength: He would not have the strength to hurt the Hulk in a prolonged fight. Banner continues to ramp up in durability which was also stated on panel. The Hulk was not truly invulnerable, but his toughness would exceed Cain's ability to injure him.
Speed: The Hulk is faster than Cain.
Combat ability: We see at the end of the tussle that the Hulk could outmaneuver Cain, and that he was generally the better combatant of the two.
Durability: Cain is a better tank, this goes without saying, but he lacks as I said earlier the power to put this Hulk down, and that was a Hulk that held back, and did not allow himself to flip out like he did when he was in the Dark Dimension. Cain would not be able to hurt him, but would instead be tossed about like he was nothing.
If we were to go back 20 years ago, Cain was challenged by the merged Hulk, who was hardly a match for the Green Scar, There is more evidence that supports the idea that this would be one sided in the Hulk's favor than it would be for Cain to win this. I am basing this on canon. What do you have? Opinion? Not good enough.
