Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by Odekahn
No, he was preventing Cain from gaining any forward momentum.

??? WWH was holding back?

I thought the Hulk holding back was WBH gear 1 not WWH, as in emmiting green energy Hulk.

I still go for Hulk though.

And why this thread wasmerged?

This thread was WWH vs Juggernaut.

Now is Hulk vs Juggernaut. :/

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
??? WWH was holding back?

I thought the Hulk holding back was WBH gear 1 not WWH, as in emmiting green energy Hulk.

He's holding back his full power, but he isn't holding back in say SS2. Hulk has more power he can access but him fighting in a lesser form doesn't mean he's holding back in a lesser form.

Not saying he was fighting to the peak of WWH form, just that him only using WWH doesn't mean he was actually holding back.

Originally posted by Stoic
Let's move onto some canonical features of this version of the Hulk shall we?

1. He was touted as being the most powerful version of the Hulk on panel, and lived up to it. This is not opinion but hard fact.

He can be "touted" all day long, it's what actually happens that matters. And it's a fact that Juggernaut showed capable of hurting the Hulk.

And since you want to use Marvel touting WWH as the most powerful he'd ever been (at that time), then you can't separate that at the same time they were touting that the Hulk as unbelievably pissed off due to everything that happened after the illuminati shot him into space.

2. War Hulk was able to defeat Cain, and overpowered him to prove this. the Green Scar as I mention in point 1 was said to be more powerful. He was even more powerful the the version of Hulk that broke Onslaught's shell. Onslaught had Cain trembling in fear, and apparently beat the mess out of him, and sent him flying miles from where the mugging began. This is canonical.

He didn't overpower him, he BFR'd him. The Justice League didn't "overpower" Darkseid, they BFR'd him to win. How is this any different?

Also, ABC logic < an actual on panel fight. We have both guys hitting each other, and we see that Hulk is clearly hurt. Hulk stated that he knew how to beat Wolverine because their healing factors were a lot alike. Repeated blows to Hulk's head targeting his brain for that very purpose is a good tactic.

Now let's go back to the OP, and try to figure out if Cain would even be able to affect the Hulk if there were no innocents around to be hurt. Cain is not on the same level in any sense.

Hulk tells Juggernaut he's going to be dead.
They fight, facing each other.
Juggernaut is able to hurt Hulk.
They play a match of Mercy that neither gain the advantage.
Hulk BFR's Juggernaut.

Even taking later stories that backtracked and said Hulk was holding back all along, that would have an effect on how Hulk attacks, but do you think Hulk's Durability went down because there were innocents around?

Now let's nail this coffin shut.

The entire time that WW Hulk went on it was stated that he held back on panel which you agreed to.

No. I said it was stated LATER that he held back. Go ahead and show me where it said he was holding back when that fight was current.

The OP gave me the idea that the Hulk would fight to the best of his ability as would Cain,

That's not how the question was asked. The question was asked what if THAT fight went on and continued. How you interpret it doesn't apply to everyone else. Also, it's off topic in relation to the real discussion.

but Cain would be sorely lacking in several areas.

Strength: He would not have the strength to hurt the Hulk in a prolonged fight. Banner continues to ramp up in durability which was also stated on panel. The Hulk was not truly invulnerable, but his toughness would exceed Cain's ability to injure him.

Speed: The Hulk is faster than Cain.

Combat ability: We see at the end of the tussle that the Hulk could outmaneuver Cain, and that he was generally the better combatant of the two.

Durability: Cain is a better tank, this goes without saying, but he lacks as I said earlier the power to put this Hulk down, and that was a Hulk that held back, and did not allow himself to flip out like he did when he was in the Dark Dimension. Cain would not be able to hurt him, but would instead be tossed about like he was nothing.

If we were to go back 20 years ago, Cain was challenged by the merged Hulk, who was hardly a match for the Green Scar, There is more evidence that supports the idea that this would be one sided in the Hulk's favor than it would be for Cain to win this. I am basing this on canon. What do you have? Opinion? Not good enough.

It was stated that he was harder to cut. So what? He still got cut. He might be harder to put down, but so what? He can still be put down.

His durability showed that he isn't invulnerable, he just can heal really well (like wolverine). But Hulk has already showed us how to get around that.

Originally posted by ODG
If you have any proof that Juggernaut requires momentum for his unstoppability enchantment to kick in, we'd all be happy to take a look.

Sure, because it doesn't make sense.

You aren't "stopped" unless you are first moving.

With Jugs it's always been when he charges (at least that's what I remember of the enchant, granted it's been a while). But you can't stop the unstoppable force if it's already stopped, because there's nothing to stop, lol.

Also, wasn't Hulk technically amped when he took down Onslaught? I seem to remember Banner's mind being shut off.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Sure, because it doesn't make sense.

You aren't "stopped" unless you are first moving.

With Jugs it's always been when he charges (at least that's what I remember of the enchant, granted it's been a while). But you can't stop the unstoppable force if it's already stopped, because there's nothing to stop, lol.

Originally posted by ODG
If you have any proof that Juggernaut requires momentum for his unstoppability enchantment to kick in, we'd all be happy to take a look.

Known Superhuman Powers: The Juggernaut possesses untold power, mystical in nature, which enhances his strength to an as yet unknown degree and makes him a seemingly irresistible, unstoppable being. Once he begins to walk in a certain direction, no obstacle or force on Earth has been observed to be able to stop him. Apparently, only he can stop himself. Some obstacles (many tons of rock, for example) or forces (such as plasma-discharge cannons) may slow his pace considerably, but nothing has yet stopped him permanently from advancing.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/j/juggernaut.htm

Embodiment of irresistible force: Once he begins to advance in a certain direction, it is virtually impossible to halt his movement[5]. Some obstacles such as many tons of rocks and plasma-discharge cannons have slowed his pace but can't completely halt him[5]. The only known examples of him being stopped involve physical force with mystical involvement, which is Juggernaut's sole weakness[5]. Thor's use of the mystical nature of his abilities allowed him to stop Juggernaut in his tracks[5]. During a battle with "War Hulk", the mutant Apocalypse increased the Hulk's strength and power enormously by grafting Celestial tech to him which again involved mysticism and allowed Hulk to stop the Juggernaut[5].

http://marvel.wikia.com/Cain_Marko_(Earth-616)

Abilities
Regenerative healing factor
Superhuman strength, stamina, and durability
Force field generation
Virtually unstoppable momentum
Helmet grants him immunity to mind control

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggernaut_(comics)

"The Juggernaut is described as physically unstoppable once in motion,[53]"

^ You might want to recheck that wiki page.

Originally posted by ODG
^ You might want to recheck that wiki page.

Good catch, ty sir.

Here's another:

The Juggernaut originally possessed untold mystical power which enhanced his strength to an unknown degree and made him a seemingly irresistible, unstoppable being. Once he began to walk in a given direction, no obstacle or force on Earth was able to stop him.

More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/universe/Juggernaut_(Cain_Marko)#ixzz2kBsleISt

^ I recall asking you for proof. Not fan-made internet websites.

Originally posted by ODG
^ I recall asking you for proof. Not fan-made internet websites.

1. Marvel.com isn't a fan made internet site.
2. It shows that other people are under the same impression that I am, so I'm not just pulling it out of my ass.
3. It's a statement. Either form a rebuttal against the point or don't, but dismissing a point because of where it came from rather than it's contents isn't a good counter argument.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
??? WWH was holding back?

I thought the Hulk holding back was WBH gear 1 not WWH, as in emmiting green energy Hulk.

I still go for Hulk though.

And why this thread wasmerged?

This thread was WWH vs Juggernaut.

Now is Hulk vs Juggernaut. :/

Yup. Before he even went World Breaker or whatever, Hulk was still back a great deal of his strength.

It wasn't until Sentry that he started to get serious as far as I can tell.

Pak even introduced the concept that Hulk's subconscious mind was like a supercomputer that allowed him to cause immense destruction without killing a soul.

Originally posted by SamZED
Didn't the writer confirm it was a test of strength and not the enchantment?

Actually, the writer said Hulk stopped Juggernaut, enchantment and all. Then when he was asked again, he said it was strength.

So basically, whatever. That being said, seeing as how Juggernaut's unstoppable enchantment was directly mentioned in the scene, I think the former is the only logical conclusion that we can reach. That being said, Juggernaut was still obviously presented as extremely strong and someone on Hulk's level in terms of physical strength. At that level of anger anyways.

Originally posted by Odekahn
1. Marvel.com isn't a fan made internet site.
2. It shows that other people are under the same impression that I am, so I'm not just pulling it out of my ass.
3. It's a statement. Either form a rebuttal against the point or don't, but dismissing a point because of where it came from rather than it's contents isn't a good counter argument.

But by any measure of reasonable discussion, I don't have to prove a negative. And as it turns out, all you've presented is the opinions of people who edit fan-made and fan-contributed websites. Which aren't anymore cogent or based on comics than your own.

When you have proof, let me know.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Actually, the writer said Hulk stopped Juggernaut, enchantment and all. Then when he was asked again, he said it was strength.

So basically, whatever. That being said, seeing as how Juggernaut's unstoppable enchantment was directly mentioned in the scene, I think the former is the only logical conclusion that we can reach. That being said, Juggernaut was still obviously presented as extremely strong and someone on Hulk's level in terms of physical strength. At that level of anger anyways.

Originally posted by ODG
I've been presented nothing so far to rebut.

Then you're saying you agree with me? You said you see nothing to argue against despite my several posts showing support of my position, so the only logical conclusion is that you concur with me.

You already know that websites are not proof on these forums.

I know IN THIS CASE that's just an excuse.

Had I linked a SINGLE site like wikipedia that can be changed on the fly, you'd have a point. But linking MULTIPLE sites including Marvel's official site that say the same thing in support my position is a strong case imo. If you don't want to accept it, that's on you. But you're just ignoring evidence.

If all you have to offer is an invocation of your own self-serving independent rules of debate,

blah blah blah unnecessary.

than sure, you won this debate according to your own arbitrary opinions and nothing else.

But by any measure of reasonable discussion, I don't have to prove a negative. And as it turns out, all you've presented is the opinions of people who edit fan-made and fan-contributed websites. Which aren't anymore cogent or based on comics than your own.

When you have proof, let me know.

All of these different people got this idea from somewhere...

And again, Marvel.com isn't fan made.

Originally posted by SamZED
You mean when Hulk said "Nothing stops the Juggernaut" part? Should be noted he also said "keep going" which might suggest that Cain never stopped completely. And in that close up of their feet it also sort of looks like Hulk's is being pushed backwards while Cain's is moving forward. But it's open to speculation.

It was clear that Hulk stopped Juggernaut and that the redirected momentum was causing Xavier's mansion's foundations to crumble.

Now Juggs have overpowered WWH in direct grappling (They were both initially at a stand still then Juggs started to push him back)

OR

Juggs unstoppable enchantment doesn't depend on initial motion.

So either Juggs was stronger than WWH or his enchantment kicked in before motion was created.

Originally posted by janus77
Or you could surmise that it was merely a quip - "Nothing stops the Juggernaut? Well, keep goin'!", followed by a smack on the back.

It was clear that Hulk stopped Juggernaut and that the redirected momentum was causing Xavier's mansion's foundations to crumble.