Juggernaut or The Hulk?

WWH can get stronger, even in this form. His walk around strength was high Herald but when pissed, he can reach trans+. This much is obvious. Look his fight against Ironman.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Then you're saying you agree with me? You said you see nothing to argue against despite my several posts showing support of my position, so the only logical conclusion is that you concur with me.

Originally posted by carver9
WWH can get stronger, even in this form. His walk around strength was high Herald but when pissed, he can reach trans+. This much is obvious. Look his fight against Ironman.

I agree with Carver here. Juggs has high herald strength but WWH or WBH can go up to Trans or even low-Skyfather, he could be even able to physically overpower Cyts enchantments.

Originally posted by ODG
I concur that you have absolutely nothing to offer in this discussion except for fan-edited and fan-contributed websites.

So you attack the wiki pages and ignore the official Marvel page?

Sounds objective.

Actually, you're the one offering nothing other than trying to attack SOME of my sources (unjustly at that) and ignoring the parts of my posts that you don't like.

Originally posted by janus77
Or you could surmise that it was merely a quip - "Nothing stops the Juggernaut? Well, keep goin'!", followed by a smack on the back.

It was clear that Hulk stopped Juggernaut and that the redirected momentum was causing Xavier's mansion's foundations to crumble.

That wasn't "redirected momentum" it was both characters using the ground to try and get leverage to BUILD momentum.

"ONCE HE STARTS MOVING"

Originally posted by Odekahn
So you attack the wiki pages and ignore the official Marvel page?

Sounds objective.

Actually, you're the one offering nothing other than trying to attack SOME of my sources (unjustly at that) and ignoring the parts of my posts that you don't like.

On KMC, we don't take websites or handbooks or even writer interviews as proof. Because they have proven, time and time again, to conflict with themselves and the comics. So I am being objective, based on actual, independent rules in place here. Unlike you, who decided to randomly declare himself an arbiter of what does/doesn't constitute evidence in this discussion. I haven't ever encountered such self-serving rambling on these forums before.

If we were arguing about characters that appear on websites, I might take websites more seriously. As it stands, I am arguing about characters that appear in comics. And I recall asking you for proof. Not websites. When you are ready to discuss the actual comics, let me know.

Originally posted by carver9
I guess they are taking about high end Hulk because WWH, Juggernaut is capable of damaging him.

👆

Originally posted by ODG
The Marvel wikia that is hosted on Marvel.com is fan-contributed and fan-edited.

On KMC, we don't take websites or handbooks or even writer interviews as proof. Because they have proven, time and time again, to conflict with themselves and the comics. So I am being objective, based on actual, independent rules in place here. Unlike you, who decided to randomly declare himself an arbiter of what does/doesn't constitute evidence in this discussion.

Ok then fine. Show me where what I've posted is conflicted.

Right now, I've produced at least SOMETHING where you've done absolutely nothing but poison the well. You don't have a counter argument, you're just attacking where my information is coming from. Provide some of your own that refutes it then.

I haven't ever encountered such self-serving rambling on these forums before.

/shrugs

Ignore me or cope. Don't really know what else to say, lol.

If we were arguing about characters that appear on websites, I might take websites more seriously. As it stands, I am arguing about characters that appear in comics. And I recall asking you for proof. Not websites. When you are ready to discuss the actual comics, let me know.

Yes and websites have information about characters that appear in comics. Just because you don't like where the information is coming from doesn't make it inaccurate.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Ok then fine. Show me where what I've posted is conflicted.

Here's actual proof that outright disproves Banner's statement that Juggernaut needs momentum for his unstoppability enchantment to work: http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Unique/Misc/UCXM013-16.jpg

This is how you have discussions. With comics. Not with whining about fan-edited and fan-contributed websites.

Originally posted by ODG
Well, at least you have an obnoxiously over-sized scan of a character statement within a comic.

Here's actual proof that outright disproves Banner's statement that Juggernaut needs momentum for his unstoppability enchantment to work: http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Unique/Misc/UCXM013-16.jpg

This is how you have discussions. With comics. Not with whining about fan-edited and fan-contributed websites.

Then why didn't you just link this a long time ago instead of crying about what sources I'm using?

And that looks like a result of this:
Force Field: The Juggernaut is capable of generating a personal force field around himself, extending to about 1 foot in diameter from his body[5]. He uses this force field for many purposes, such as preventing physical contact[5], keeping debris and unwanted materials off of himself[5], and escaping piles of debris[5]. However the most important purpose of the field is if and when he is cast in solidifying material such as concrete. If he were to be put into this kind of hard cast which would keep his motion prohibited, he can erect this force field to break out of a cast[5]. Hence without this force field he could not be unstoppable.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Then why didn't you just link this a long time ago instead of crying about what sources I'm using?

And it's not like I had that link in my back pocket. I had to look for it. I started with the comics. You might want to do the same in the future. I understand though, that you can't simply just read the comics and would rather look through random entries in fan-edited websites in contravention of what occurs actually on-panel. Like this last post of your's. But that has more to do with you, than the comics.

And I'm more interested in the comics than you.

Originally posted by ODG
Because I wasn't given anything to respond to. It's not my job to prove a negative. Not when it's your claim at issue. This is typically how discussions work. You make a claim, you back it up with actual evidence. You don't make a claim and then sh1t your pants for several posts about the veracity of websites when they're inadmissible per forums rules, while not even knowing that they are fan-edited and fan-contributed. And my flat statements that you weren't giving me a single thing to work with can hardly be characterized as "crying."

And it's not like I had that link in my back pocket. I had to look for it. I started with the comics. You might want to do the same in the future. I understand though, that you can't simply just read the comics and would rather look through random entries in fan-edited websites in contravention of what occurs actually on-panel. Like this last post of your's. But that has more to do with you, than the comics.

And I'm more interested in the comics than you.

I'm not using them as evidence OVER comics. I'm simply showing you that this idea has existed for a long time despite your never hearing of it or reading it. You came at me like it was something I was making up. There are multiple sources that agree with the position I'm taking.Granted, that doesn't automatically make them correct, but just because you are ignoring them (because of where they come from) doesn't make them incorrect either.

And you were the one who asked for evidence, so I provided some (if nothing else than in the form of witnesses).

So right now, I've got:

My claim supported by others throughout multiple internet sources.

And you've got:

????????????????

Also, I'm at work. I can't pull comics out of my back pocket either.

Originally posted by SamZED
You mean when Hulk said "Nothing stops the Juggernaut" part? Should be noted he also said "keep going" which might suggest that Cain never stopped completely. And in that close up of their feet it also sort of looks like Hulk's is being pushed backwards while Cain's is moving forward. But it's open to speculation.

Is that how you saw it? What I saw was that Banner stopped him, but Cain was still pushing. banner then stepped aside, and Cain ran in the direction that he was pushing in, while being helped by a pat on the back. This was still at a time where the Hulk was concerned with innocent lives or he would have taken it to a higher degree with Cain.

So if that was the case, and he was holding back (which was stated on panel and not on some fan induced wiki site), I'd imagine that if he went berserk, he would have begun to push Cain backwards. Or outright dominate him like he would in a forum match if they were both operating at the peak without holding anything back.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yup. Before he even went World Breaker or whatever, Hulk was still back a great deal of his strength.

It wasn't until Sentry that he started to get serious as far as I can tell.

Pak even introduced the concept that Hulk's subconscious mind was like a supercomputer that allowed him to cause immense destruction without killing a soul.

I disagree, I don't believe in his WWH moment he was holding back against Zom, Ghost Rider, or the Gamma Corps.

The Gamma corps outright defeated momentarily WWH.

In any case. I disagree.

I believe that in his WB mode he was holding back, but not WWH like the way it has been suggested in here.

IMO any way

^ So Hulk holding back much higher levels of power means he wasn't holding back. Not sure if serious.

Originally posted by Odekahn
I'm not using them as evidence OVER comics.

Originally posted by ODG
You're right. You were using them for absolutely no reason.

I used them to respond to this.

Originally posted by ODG
If you have any proof that Juggernaut requires momentum for his unstoppability enchantment to kick in, we'd all be happy to take a look.

I'm providing secondary sources and you are discrediting them without supplying conflicting primary sources. You don't even have any secondary sources to support your position. You've got nothing.

^ Hulk has an upper limit before he goes critical mass.

When ever he reached those limits in the past (critical mass) the lack of banner did not allowed him to control the power and actually was causing Hulk's body to die.

The lack of banner or the less control banner has over the hulk the faster he reaches those levels of strength.

Once he goes critical mass he holds back or does not holds back.

Bath Hulk was stated to have reached the upper limits of his strength (before going critical mass) but instead of getting stronger her got weaker. Once Banner is in the picture he balances the HULK and NOW that he embraces the Hulk it allows him to reach critical mass.

Something I don't recall He ever did with Banner in charge

So in short, Hulk (WWH in this case) he has a limit, until he starts going critical, then He reaches another level and goes WB mode

In this thread is nuttered WWH, he is not holding back, he has a limit until he reaches the next level.

and yes I am serious, that is the way I have interpreted all those issues since Hulk 400 and he does hold back before going critical mass as well of course he does if banner is restricting the hulk and not letting him reach the same strength level as mindless hulk, or baby hulk. the more banner was in control the less Hulk strength, because banner did not wanted the hulk, it wasn't until PAK came in that banner accepted the HULK and allowed him to reach the critical mass power levels.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I disagree, I don't believe in his WWH moment he was holding back against Zom, Ghost Rider, or the Gamma Corps.

The Gamma corps outright defeated momentarily WWH.

In any case. I disagree.

I believe that in his WB mode he was holding back, but not WWH like the way it has been suggested in here.

IMO any way

Hercules said Hulk was holding back as well when he was punching him in the face. Just because he was at a very high levels when be was WWH doesn't mean he had a cap. Look at his fight against Ironman...look at the time he was poisoned. He had to get angrier/more powerful to reject the poison.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
^ Hulk has an upper limit before he goes critical mass.

When ever he reached those limits in the past (critical mass) the lack of banner did not allowed him to control the power and actually was causing Hulk's body to die.

The lack of banner or the less control banner has over the hulk the faster he reaches those levels of strength.

Once he goes critical mass he holds back or does not holds back.

Bath Hulk was stated to have reached the upper limits of his strength (before going critical mass) but instead of getting stronger her got weaker. Once Banner is in the picture he balances the HULK and NOW that he embraces the Hulk it allows him to reach critical mass.

Something I don't recall He ever did with Banner in charge

So in short, Hulk (WWH in this case) he has a limit, until he starts going critical, then He reaches another level and goes WB mode

In this thread is nuttered WWH, he is not holding back, he has a limit until he reaches the next level.

and yes I am serious, that is the way I have interpreted all those issues since Hulk 400

No he doesn't. Even during WWH mode and WBH mode, he still wasn't at his cap. He was still increasing in strength.