Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by carver9
Hercules said Hulk was holding back as well when he was punching him in the face. Just because he was at a very high levels when be was WWH doesn't mean he had a cap. Look at his fight against Ironman...look at the time he was poisoned. He had to get angrier/more powerful to reject the poison.

Let me rephrase what I said, at some points when he fought against some character he did hold back, but at other point he was getting taxed and he even got momentarily defeated.

Originally posted by carver9
No he doesn't. Even during WWH mode and WBH mode, he still wasn't at his cap. He was still increasing in strength.

In his WWH mode he reached a level of strength that previously was unable to control which made him reach critical mass and become the WB.

Originally posted by carver9
Hercules said Hulk was holding back as well when he was punching him in the face. Just because he was at a very high levels when be was WWH doesn't mean he had a cap. Look at his fight against Ironman...look at the time he was poisoned. He had to get angrier/more powerful to reject the poison.

What poison? The needle that got changed it? let me check it again, because I remember that it was a dud

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Let me rephrase what I said, at some points when he fought against some character he did hold back, but at other point he was getting taxed and he even got momentarily defeated.

When did he get defeated? The only time I remember was during the time they injected him with Nanites?

Him getting taxed doesn't mean he was at his limit. He got taxed (he didn't even get taxed since he went WBH mode a couple of min later) is...Sentry was blasting him with planet exploding energy consistently along with blasting him via his hands along with punching him in the face. Sentry basically unleashed the power of a million exploding suns on Hulk. He brought everything to the table and it took its toll on Hulk power. Doesn't mean that he had a limit, means that Sentry overloaded Hulks durability.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
What poison? The needle that got changed it? let me check it again, because I remember that it was a dud

No...Hulk was injected with a venom that chewed through his healing factor. And the more angrier and power WWH got, the more the Venom increased in Hulks blood cells which would have ultimately killed him. Well, his power overloaded the venom and bypassed its job.

Originally posted by Odekahn
I used them to respond to this.

I'm providing secondary sources and you are discrediting them without supplying conflicting primary sources. You don't even have any secondary sources to support your position. You've got nothing.

And you can drop the act of just ignoring the proof I already posted. It's almost insulting. Feel free to act like my non-reliance on fan-edited websites and focus on actual comics makes my stance weaker than your's though. I needed a good laugh.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Let me rephrase what I said, at some points when he fought against some character he did hold back, but at other point he was getting taxed and he even got momentarily defeated.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
^ Hulk has an upper limit before he goes critical mass.

This has not been the case for over a decade now.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
When ever he reached those limits in the past (critical mass) the lack of banner did not allowed him to control the power and actually was causing Hulk's body to die.

That was the Hulk Surfer tried to convert back to Banner, iirc and then realised that there was no Banner to return him to.

The important fact is that this "limit" was a special one-off, nothing inherent in the Hulk, but a result of unique circumstances. Thus, irrelevant.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
The lack of banner or the less control banner has over the hulk the faster he reaches those levels of strength.

IIRC, Mindless Hulk, the one used against Onslaught, was Professor Hulk at base. This is the Hulk with the failsafe that prevents him getting too angry, so the switching off of Banner was necessary to override that.

This doesn't have any bearing on Green Scar, since he is Banner & Hulk in consonance.

Fixit is also an instance of non-Banner controlled Hulk that definitely is not stronger or cannot quickly reach the levels that Professor Hulk operated at.

In general though, Banner if not in control of the conscious mind of Hulk, will attempt to restrain and 'guide' Hulk, as Cho and WWH states.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Once he goes critical mass he holds back or does not holds back.

WWH showed Hulk fighting everyone from Cyclops to ZomStrange, yet not one of them died. If he only held back once he was at "critical mass", you would imagine that Cyclops would have died from that grip Hulk had around his skull, that SkrullBolt, IM, Strange and dozens of others too would have been killed by the punches and grips of this hugely amped up Hulk.

Yet none of them was injured severely, nevermind killed. And that is what it means for Hulk to pull his punches.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Bath Hulk was stated to have reached the upper limits of his strength (before going critical mass) but instead of getting stronger her got weaker. Once Banner is in the picture he balances the HULK and NOW that he embraces the Hulk it allows him to reach critical mass.

Something I don't recall He ever did with Banner in charge

So in short, Hulk (WWH in this case) he has a limit, until he starts going critical, then He reaches another level and goes WB mode

In this thread is nuttered WWH, he is not holding back, he has a limit until he reaches the next level.

and yes I am serious, that is the way I have interpreted all those issues since Hulk 400 and he does hold back before going critical mass as well of course he does if banner is restricting the hulk and not letting him reach the same strength level as mindless hulk, or baby hulk. the more banner was in control the less Hulk strength, because banner did not wanted the hulk, it wasn't until PAK came in that banner accepted the HULK and allowed him to reach the critical mass power levels.

Hulk in the comics of the Planet Hulk arc, the WWH arc and those proceeding from there on, is Green Scar. He is "World Breaker", just holding back.

He never unleashes because he doesn't want to kill anyone nor obliterate the planet.

There is no such thing as "another level", that he somehow has to work up to, that level of power is _always_there_.

Re reading the gamma corps, he was momentarily defeated by attacks on he neck and devolving him to grey state.
To some it might not count as a defeat for WWH, but to some it might just be a way to defeat WWH.

Sentry taxed him enough that he even devolved into Banner and it wasn't until he found out that he meek lied to him that he became WB.

You might think he has no limits, I happen to think so. It does not make me right and it does not makes you right.

I just happen to think or interpret the books that way. We can disagree as always.

Which BTW I said WWH wins and I just happened to give my point of view on certain things, like I said, it does not make it fact, but my opinion.

Originally posted by janus77
No he doesn't. Even going "WBH" is perfectly controlled now.
There were, in the past, incarnations of Hulk that could not handle too much rage, turning back into Banner. This was a "failsafe" that Banner had placed, to prevent uncontrolled destruction, whilst enraged.

This has not been the case for over a decade now.

No, that was due to the fact that Banner and Hulk were spread across two different universes. Bannerless Hulk was leaking gamma equivalent to a nuclear bomb, throughout 616 MU, while Banner-Hulk was trapped inside Franklin's Pocket Universe.

That was the Hulk Surfer tried to convert back to Banner, iirc and then realised that there was no Banner to return him to.

The important fact is that this "limit" was a special one-off, nothing inherent in the Hulk, but a result of unique circumstances. Thus, irrelevant.

Not necessarily so, Savage Hulk is less overtly controlled by Banner than Green Scar, yet Savage Hulk rarely amped as fast as Green Scar and never amped to "WBH" levels.

IIRC, Mindless Hulk, the one used against Onslaught, was Professor Hulk at base. This is the Hulk with the failsafe that prevents him getting too angry, so the switching off of Banner was necessary to override that.

This doesn't have any bearing on Green Scar, since he is Banner & Hulk in consonance.

Fixit is also an instance of non-Banner controlled Hulk that definitely is not stronger or cannot quickly reach the levels that Professor Hulk operated at.

In general though, Banner if not in control of the conscious mind of Hulk, will attempt to restrain and 'guide' Hulk, as Cho and WWH states.

Not really, as mentioned above, there are several Hulks with their own set limits and amping levels, but all of them hold back (so long as Banner is present) and none of them intentionally endanger innocents.

WWH showed Hulk fighting everyone from Cyclops to ZomStrange, yet not one of them died. If he only held back once he was at "critical mass", you would imagine that Cyclops would have died from that grip Hulk had around his skull, that SkrullBolt, IM, Strange and dozens of others too would have been killed by the punches and grips of this hugely amped up Hulk.

Yet none of them was injured severely, nevermind killed. And that is what it means for Hulk to pull his punches.

Can't really follow much of that but, you seem to be under the mistaken belief that "WWH" is actually a Hulk in comics. It's nothing of the sort, but simply a KMC convention designed by mods to limit Hulk in the interest of handicapped threads against vastly inferior opponents. Sort of like shoving a kryptonite chunk down Superman's throat and then having him face off against some GL or other... it makes for "sport".

Hulk in the comics of the Planet Hulk arc, the WWH arc and those proceeding from there on, is Green Scar. He is "World Breaker", just holding back.

He never unleashes because he doesn't want to kill anyone nor obliterate the planet.

There is no such thing as "another level", that he somehow has to work up to, that level of power is _always_there_.

I will answer this properly later.

But I do agree that in the present HULK is the same as WWH or WB.

Because now Banner embraces the HULK therefore capable of reaching WB mode

I don't think I stated other wise, but for the purpose of this thread is WWH vs Juggernaut, or it was anyway, before it got merged.

I do think WWH or WB will defeat Juggernaut in any case.

I am just putting a cap to what is consider WWH mode which reffers to the way he was portrayed in that ARC and at the end he reached WB mode, which before the thread merge will not be usable under the forum rules.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Re reading the gamma corps, he was momentarily defeated by attacks on he neck and devolving him to grey state.
To some it might not count as a defeat for WWH, but to some it might just be a way to defeat WWH.

Sentry taxed him enough that he even devolved into Banner and it wasn't until he found out that he meek lied to him that he became WB.

You might think he has no limits, I happen to think so. It does not make me right and it does not makes you right.

I just happen to think or interpret the books that way. We can disagree as always.

Which BTW I said WWH wins and I just happened to give my point of view on certain things, like I said, it does not make it fact, but my opinion.

Hulk has also overpowered people using his own strength against him (from Rulk to Arm'Cheddon).

Hulk's limits are yet to be discovered. Marvel's consistent line has been that he has no limits and so far, they have not shown any hard limits.

Sentry ran out of juice, btw, not Hulk. Hulk transformed back into Banner, but was clearly still there, as you could see the unusually strong glowing green eyes of Banner.

Hulk never wanted to hurt Sentry, he was trying to "reach him" with his words and allowed Sentry to expend himself, let himself go completely, because - as Sentry knew - Hulk could take it.

Originally posted by ODG
You used websites on a forum where websites are pretty much the lowest common denominator on the banned list of sources. Let's stop pretending that you never knew about KMC's rules or why fan-edited websites are worthless.

And you can drop the act of just ignoring the proof I already posted. It's almost insulting. Feel free to act like my non-reliance on fan-edited websites and focus on actual comics makes my stance weaker than your's though. I needed a good laugh. If you're referring to the Gamma Corps, that's because they used a revese-engineered toxin to reduce him to his Gray Hulk power-levels.

I used websites while at work to show that there are others who support my position. You are the one attacking the source and not the issue. Not to mention the scan I posted with it.

And I don't think your scan is a contradiction in the slightest. I think Juggernaut is using his force field to combat the telekinesis used against him. And even if it was a contradiction (which it isn't imo), my scan is more recent than yours.

Basically what I'm saying is.... even IF you were right about your scan, you're still wrong overall.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I will answer this properly later.

But I do agree that in the present HULK is the same as WWH or WB.

Because now Banner embraces the HULK therefore capable of reaching WB mode

I don't think I stated other wise, but for the purpose of this thread is WWH vs Juggernaut, or it was anyway, before it got merged.

I do think WWH or WB will defeat Juggernaut in any case.

I am just putting a cap to what is consider WWH mode which reffers to the way he was portrayed in that ARC and at the end he reached WB mode, which before the thread merge will not be usable under the forum rules.

Originally posted by janus77
I think the thread merge is causing some confusions. I see this as "The Hulk" vs Juggernaut. Some people are sticking to KMC defined "WWH" (who doesn't exist in comics), others use WWH as shorthand for Green Scar (as he was the Hulk that appeared in all those comics) and some seem to be talking about the weakest Hulk they can find.

This was the OP that it got merged

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
What if the fight below were forced to a conclusion. Someone must be KOed or die. How would it have ended?

Originally posted by Odekahn
I used websites

Nuff said.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Re reading the gamma corps, he was momentarily defeated by attacks on he neck and devolving him to grey state.
To some it might not count as a defeat for WWH, but to some it might just be a way to defeat WWH.

Sentry taxed him enough that he even devolved into Banner and it wasn't until he found out that he meek lied to him that he became WB.

You might think he has no limits, I happen to think so. It does not make me right and it does not makes you right.

I just happen to think or interpret the books that way. We can disagree as always.

Which BTW I said WWH wins and I just happened to give my point of view on certain things, like I said, it does not make it fact, but my opinion.

Sorry to tell you this but you're wrong about all of it.

The neck stacks had nothing to do with what happened during that scene. That was the ending. It started with Hulk being injected reverting him to grey Hulk levels, then the neck attacks was the finishing.

I think me and your definition of tax is different. When someone is taxed, that means they are out of power...no matter what the outside circumstances are. This doesn't even include the fact that after the Sentry fight, Banner eyes glowed and he smiled which gave me an indication that he still had power. Back on topic...if someone is taxed, their power is gone, depleted. How in the WORLD did Banner get EVEN MORE POWERFUL than be was before if he ran out of juice. Does that even make sense? That's like me saying, j ran put of bullets in my gun but as soon as I pull the trigger, I blow an apple up. WTF.

Originally posted by ODG
I used comics

Nuff said.

No, it's really not enough said.

You used an ancient comic that doesn't prove anything other than juggernaut's force field can be used to combat non physical attacks.

My scan is both more recent AND clearer about the intent.

Please explain to me hour definition of taxing.

Originally posted by Odekahn
No, it's really not enough said.

You used an ancient comic that doesn't prove anything other than juggernaut's force field can be used to combat non physical attacks.

My scan is both more recent AND clearer about the intent.

It proves that Juggernaut being held still in the air can still advance. Because he's unstoppable. If it were his forcefield advancing, you'd have a point. Since it was Juggernaut advancing, you don't. And a random wiki entry that has nothing to do with the scene doesn't change that.

Actual feats > character statements. Comics > websites. Debating > whining.

Yea, using another website to try to support your idea under the pretext of: "to show that there are others who support my position" is somewhat of a weird way to approach debating...especially on this site where you better have concrete on-panel evidence or you're going to look very silly (lots of vicious experienced debaters here). I'll be honest, i'm more of a Juggernaut fan than Hulk but i think during that match at the X-mansion, Hulk was far from serious. Juggernaut went in with intent to hurt and Hulk was mostly apathetic that whole battle. And i feel his "So nothing can stop the juggernaut, huh?" was more a mockery than admittance.

Originally posted by dynamix
Yea, using another website to try to support your idea under the pretext of: "to show that there are others who support my position" is somewhat of a weird way to approach debating...especially on this site where you better have concrete on-panel evidence or you're going to look very silly (lots of vicious experienced debaters here). I'll be honest, i'm more of a Juggernaut fan than Hulk but i think during that match at the X-mansion, Hulk was far from serious. Juggernaut went in with intent to hurt and Hulk was mostly apathetic that whole battle. And i feel his "So nothing can stop the juggernaut, huh?" was more a mockery than admittance.

And that's a fair point.

But my reason for showing such was to at least get it out there that I'm not alone in my thought process AND to show that I wasn't just making it up. After ODG's second time posting the same thing, it came across as if he didn't believe that I was being sincere and was instead trying to be manipulative.

I did provide a scan as well, yet that's being ignored, and the conversation is stuck on the use of websites. Also, if I had used just a single fan based website then I could understand the reluctance. Or if I used what the website/s said in spite of what is on panel, that would make sense too. But enough about that anyways, agree to disagree.

Back to the point. Hulk did not stop a forward moving Juggernaut, thus overpowering the enchantment. He merely stopped him from gaining any momentum.