Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by Tough Guy

*linkalicious u nob it has been said on many occasions that hulk is limitless in strength, stan lee said it many times in at least 2 interviews i have seen recently with him in, its a fact, his power, he only has to get angrier to get stronger and has a limitless fury. sorry but dumb dumb that is a fact if u dont believe dont bother replying as im not gonna
keep repeating myself i hope wynndar may give u the numbers u need.

Read EVERY one of my posts in this thread.

Where do I deny Hulk's limitless strength? I know Hulk has limitless strength and I didn't need to go hump the marvel directory in order to find this out.

All you've done in your endless rambling is restate the EXACT SAME THING over and over again, while that isn't even the arguement I'm putting up.

I didn't say Hulk doesn't have Limitless strength, I said THUS FAR Juggernaut has been proven to have equally limitless strength.

for the 3rd time now....prove me wrong. Show me a comic where Juggernaut was too weak physically to perform a task.

Oh and off the top of my head, the two Hulk beat downs were in #172 and #402...i believe.

your last post was requesting proof on hulks limitless strength actully...... no i wont succombe to it. secondly juggie has strength that is at best unknown, why, probably as he is not a defined enough character like hulk, thor etc, his limitless power is for his invulnerability and his unstoppableness, where, and his power is no way as established as hulks, he is supposadly indestructable, i will go with this on previous evidence,
now my argument for this fight states simply hulk would get stronger ( and no not in months hours etc, he increases very quickly) and heal almost instantaneously as he did makinhg it nigh imposible for juggie to hurt him, now this is just based on his power ull find in any bio or special edition marvel character thingy i see for saleevery now and again., hulk ( if juggie is trully indestructable, to those without celestial energy,) ould also not hurt juggie, meaning it would be more of a wrestling match that would suit brute force and hulk more and have juggie thrown somewhere ( my opinion)
ur quoting prof hulk again that ha been discussed to death, and no hulk has not lost a fight to juggie in any comics, the only clear winner was war and we dont count that either. though savage hulk would be able to have wars strength as ould just need to be mad he would nothave celedtial power to stop juggie, oh or any silly doc oc arms, or a flashy sword,

Originally posted by Tough Guy
your last post was requesting proof on hulks limitless strength actully...... no i wont succombe to it.

Why not? All he's asking for is proof. Don't you want to prove your point with some hard facts and try to win this debate?

If not, then you should concede and agree that Juggernaut could beat Hulk.

Besides, how much angrier can Hulk really get to actually tap into this limitless strength? All it is is potential.

Juggernaut is yet to show he is nearly as strong as the top three guys on Earth...Hulk doesnt even need limitless strength.

proof what proof do you want , im just telling you their freakin powers here, hulk has limitless rage, thats his power, dont start going scientific, cos how scientific is a magic gem stone????????? all im saying is a savage hulk getting angrier and angrier would have NO imit to hs strength and should win a brawl, with any one. now i know he hasnt always why i just dont know but if he is kept true to his power then h should. the fly i mean what prof can i give u, do u not know anything about hulk, or juggie for that matter, if not read marvels directory, and the bios for each character, also u can get special marvel comic type bios and histories of various characters ( much more use and detailed) they look like regular comics. im not replying now to anyone arguing the power of hulk, its clear if u ask me and dont argue if u know nothing about the characters your arguing against

The Juggernaut, the old Juggernaut we all love(but the good guy version is good too anyway) during 8th Day issue says that he's a god, he's at Thor's level, a god-like character or demigod with a source of power that is limitless.Juggernaut strenght hasn't actually prove to have a limit.
You want an easy demonstration of Hulk useless limitless strenght?
It took 3 days for Hulk to reach a sufficient strenght level to make Superman feeling his fists.Because Savage Hulk can lift 70 tons in quiet state, Class 100 Tons when is rage starts, Excess of 100 if is rage grow.
Superman was playing with Hulk, and when he was sick of playing he defeat him.
Marko isn't so stupid to risk that Hulk become sufficiently strong to become a problem, and he wouldn't waste time because he know that he can tap into Cyttorak magic power to grant himself all the strenght he needs.He would just wipe out Hulk with 2 or 3 fists at full force and knock him unconscious, before Hulk become a problem.
Easy and simple.Fan Boys are die hard, but like says a quote i read,
and here comes the good guys, with Batman's prep time, until Thanos blink an eye and destroy him.
Hulk has ben defeated.Hulk has been stopped.Hulk has been knocked unconscious.The Juggernaut can do all of those 3things i write above.
Someone talk about Hulk shattering a planet, yes how much require to him to become that strong?Months?And will Juggernaut give him "rage prep time?NO.

I believe I know a lot about both the Hulk and the Juggernaut, and in my opinion I believe that the Juggernaut can beat the Hulk in a knockdown, all-out brawl.

Also, the Hulk can't get angrier, and angrier and obtain limitless strength if he's rendered unconscious. All Juggernaut has to do is deliver a blow that would knock the Hulk out and take care of him from there. No worries about someone getting angrier when they're unconscious.

And it's not like the Hulk has never been knocked out before. If Iron Man can do it, I'm positive the Juggernaut could.

Wow...everyone has put there 2 cents worth in, except me.

I still can't decide who would win-to be honest. It could go either way.

They should make a duo with these two....what a tag team this would be. The irrestible force and the immovable object.

hulk v superman, oh give me a break, superman beats anybody always will, though actually admitted in 1 fight that hulk was physically too strong or something, kevil shut up, hulk spends most his time over 100 tonne range, also it was GREY hulk that wiped out the asteroid, hulks weaker self,. juggie has only knocked out prof hulk not savage. when has iron man knocked out hulk????????????????? savage hulk???????????u guys seem un clear of just how quick hulks strength grows, and also how quickly he heals to being nigh on impervious, i mean he was battering onslaught with punches akin to atomic explosions for goodness sake, and has survived atomic explosions, if tony stark has manged to knock out savage hulk with something other than his socks i say theres a perfect example of inconsistancy. and i know abom has, i know namour has, but well hes proved himself far more durable at other times, who knows maybe he wasnt angry that day lol, his durability grows with his rage as does his strength, ad infinitum, id pick that any day for a brawl and would expect to win. after all the way u r going on is like its easy to knock hulk out???/ its not, and juggie is not physically as strong as u guys seem to think, certainly not on a limitless scale anyway. to finish, juggie has been defeated by onslaught, hurt by a flaming stick in the eye, so tyhere, prof hulk also knocked him to his knees, PROF hulk for goodnes sakes, now tell me u take comic evidenc as gospal

gospel

also enough of this juggie limitless strength card, ive not read or seen anything that actually convinces me its true, ive only seen people mention it as a way to counteract hulks limitless strngth potential, . juggie has unknown, not unlimited, his unlimited power from anything i have read is there to make im indestructable virtually and be unstoppable when moving, thats his charcter stop reading more into it than is there.

Juggernaut is cooler and better than hulk
juggernaut is always strong but the hulk is weak when he is bruce banner juggernaut could just kill bruce banner and e done with this

there are a lot of inaccurate opinions floating around at this point...Juggernaut cannot easily knock out the Hulk...it took everything he had, and desception to knock out a calm professor Hulk...Madman knocked out professor with one punch three issues later so Im not impressed, Hulk can stil beat Madman when he's angry...would it take days for Hulk to reach Jug's strength? not in my opinion, Jugs has been knocked on his ass by colossus, Thus Hulk in a calm state (at least 100 class strength nothing less...grey Hulk was the only incarnation that started below 100) is a match for Jugs. The only time Hulk fought Jug in an angry state was when he was under Red Skull's contrlol...and two punches from an angry Hulk put Jugs on the ground with a bewildered look on his face...while he was one his knees he was knocked out by a psychic backlash...Im certain he would have gotten if it hadnt been for that backlash...but so would Thor, the Thing, Abomination, or Hercules...my point? Jugernauts invulnerabilty and unstoppable factor are only marginal before an Angry Hulk. Hulk has held up 150-billion tons...Thor lifted the Jormungad Serpent...a creature so big its weight made the Earth shake and its body could encircle the Earth, Hercules has held up the Island of Manhattan...Jugernaut beat up Colossus...I know a lot of people say Juggernaut is just as strong if not stronger than these guys, he just hasnt proven it yet...that is ridiculous...if there are no demonstrations of him lifting a tenth of the weight these other guys have, then why would we assume he is potentially stronger? that means we should also assume Ironclad, the Destroyer, Blackbolt, Apocalypse, Onslaught, the Glob, etc. are also as strong or stronger than these guys. However, until anyone actually does show an awesome display of strength, I will consider Hulk, Thor, and Hercules the strongest on Earth.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
guys seem un clear of just how quick hulks strength grows,

clearly not fast enough... but i dont wanna touch on the subject any more than that.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
and also how quickly he heals to being nigh on impervious,

also applies to juggernaut... he does have a healing/regeneration ability 😉

Originally posted by Tough Guy
i mean he was battering onslaught with punches akin to atomic explosions for goodness sake,

wrong... it said something about atomic thunder... not anything close to an atomic explosion.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
his durability grows with his rage as does his strength,

but it doesnt say that anywhere... his strength is limitless not his stamina or durability. now you are exagerating.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
to finish, juggie has been defeated by onslaught,

onslaught was also telepathically warping juggernauts perception of reality. juggernauts WELL KNOWN weakness.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
hurt by a flaming stick in the eye,

hulk was once knocked out by a regular python... bad writing eh?

Originally posted by Tough Guy
so tyhere, prof hulk also knocked him to his knees, PROF hulk for goodnes sakes, now tell me u take comic evidenc as gospal

and juggernaut has knocked every version of hulk down... including war hulk... whats your point?? it was a cosmetic attack and lasted all but 2 seconds... get over it.

p.s. everything else i didnt feel like replying to cause i already have. even everything here i basically have replied on before.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Juggernaut cannot easily knock out the Hulk...it took everything he had,

everything he had... now that is innacurate if i ever seen it. looked like he just pummeled hulk at his leasure...

Originally posted by Wynndar
would it take days for Hulk to reach Jug's strength? not in my opinion,

exactly just that... your opinion. my opinion is he already raged for 2 days and still was unable to over power juggernaut. even then its not just opinion... it happened. it is a fact.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Jugs has been knocked on his ass by colossus,

so hulk has never been knocked down?? i believe he has. also, colossus got knocked out after 'cosmetically' knocking juggernaut down. you failed to mention that.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Thus Hulk in a calm state (at least 100 class strength nothing less...grey Hulk was the only incarnation that started below 100) is a match for Jugs.

funny... savage hulk was having a hell of a time trying to beat him up. so did professor, and even war hulk. had he not had the aid of celestial tech + being the focal point of energies unknown.... you get the point. it would have been exactly the same as previous encounters... with juggernaut dominate. thats my opinion.

Originally posted by Wynndar
The only time Hulk fought Jug in an angry state was when he was under Red Skull's contrlol...and two punches from an angry Hulk put Jugs on the ground with a bewildered look on his face...

you forgot about savage hulk.... in thier first encounter. please stop trying to skip over it like it didnt happen because it makes hulk look weaker than juggernaut 😉

Originally posted by Wynndar
while he was one his knees

for a whole 2 seconds...

Originally posted by Wynndar
he was knocked out by a psychic backlash...

yes, yes he was.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Hulk has held up 150-billion tons...

no he didnt... he supported a portion of that weight, from caving in on the spot iron man blasted out... use your head.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Thor lifted the Jormungad Serpent...a creature so big its weight made the Earth shake and its body could encircle the Earth, Hercules has held up the Island of Manhattan...

actually hercules and manhattan was retconned... it never "actually" happened.

not to mention.. how many comics has thor appeared in??? hundreds. literally. what about hulk?? hundreds... literally. juggernaut has appeared in how many?? of coarse hulk and thor have had more time to prove themselves. i say juggernaut has more than proved himself against these 2. he is -just- as strong weather you want to admit it or not.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Jugernaut beat up Colossus...

and hulk and thor....

Originally posted by Wynndar
I know a lot of people say Juggernaut is just as strong if not stronger than these guys, he just hasnt proven it yet...

exactly... but read above. he only makes a few appearances per how many of the others you recited???

Originally posted by Wynndar
that is ridiculous...if there are no demonstrations of him lifting a tenth of the weight these other guys have, then why would we assume he is potentially stronger?

because of what he does against these characters when the yare fighting.

Originally posted by Wynndar
that means we should also assume Ironclad, the Destroyer, Blackbolt, Apocalypse, Onslaught, the Glob, etc. are also as strong or stronger than these guys. However, until anyone actually does show an awesome display of strength, I will consider Hulk, Thor, and Hercules the strongest on Earth.

the destroyer is stronger than both of them. apocalypse possibly, but debatable. the destroyer kicks the crap out of thor every time they meet. and hulk... i havnt read that issue yet, but i will acquire it soon.

oh and until you prove that thor/hulk/hercules i'll believe juggernaut the strongest on earth considering what he has done to atleast 2 of the afformentioned characters... pummel them.

Im talking about in terms of pure strength...
-Hulk has had trouble with Deadpool...it doesnt mean im going to argue that deadpool is stronger than the Rhino...
-Juggernauts particular powers allow him to fight, even beat down characters like Hulk, Thor, and Herc, but it doesnt mean he can lift as much...
-about the atomic thunder thing, Hulk has fought other characters who's punches landed with the power of nuclear explosions...I will go find an issue later...
-Colossus was not ko'd, since he was still in his steel form...
-it has been demonstrated that as Hulk's anger increases, it is not only his strength but all his properties that increase...
-whether Onslaught was warping his perceptions or not, Jug did get knocked from Canada to New York, and that is still worth mentioning...
-the point of me mentioning all the times that Jug was knocked down or hurt by Hulk or even Colossus, is to demonstrate that his invulnerability and unstoppable properties, although much greater, are only marginal just as characters like Rogue, Cannonball, Thor, etc
-Comparing Hulk to Jug in their first encounter is fine considering Hulk's strength and powers have increased greatly since then ie. when Banner transformed into the Hulk for the first time he was only capable of lifting 25 tons
-Jug. powers increase or develop over time? no, his powers have existed for eons, always the same unless Cyttorak changes them: 8th day, the time two people possessed the ruby, or present day/deceased Jug.
-He may have raged for days but it was still their combined strength that busted that wall...furthermor considering Jug's powers, no wall should be able to hold him
-He may have raged for days but he was fine after he and Jug left that setting...in their their ensuing fight Hulk's strength started back at base
-Jugs did not win that fight, it went back and forth and was very even until Hulk threw Jug. away and thought he won.
-Hulk held 150 billion tons...the mountain was probably far more than 150 billion tons but the actual weight Hulk was personally under was said to be 150 billion tons...think about it: a Mountain range dwarfing the Andes only 150 billion tons?
-The destroyer, Apoc, Ironclad, Blackbolt, and Jug. havent lifted as much as Thor, Hulk, or Herc, thus I will not consider them as strong until they do
-What Jug. does in a fight is something different all together, his powers make him exceptionally well suited to fighting Thor and Hulk...that says nothing about how strong he is.
-Hulk, Thor, and Herc have lifted many times more than Jug.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
....when has iron man knocked out hulk?????????????????

It was just this past summer and you're asking "when"?!?!

Why don't you go read Incredible Hulk #74 from the "Big Things" story arc? That was their most recent encounter. To add insult to injury, Iron Man threw a bottle of aspirin at the Hulk, who was laying prone and unconscious.

Obviously you don't read the Incredible Hulk and you only go by statistics, because if you did read the comic, you'd know for a fact that Iron Man has knocked out the Hulk (and on more than one occasion).

(see Iron Man #305 and Iron Man Vol. 2, #2)

Originally posted by Wynndar
Im talking about in terms of pure strength...

as is the rest of us

Originally posted by Wynndar
-Hulk has had trouble with Deadpool...it doesnt mean im going to argue that deadpool is stronger than the Rhino...

uhg... juggernauts punching/moving/lifting power has been equal to if not better than the others mentioned when he fights them.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-Juggernauts particular powers allow him to fight, even beat down characters like Hulk, Thor, and Herc, but it doesnt mean he can lift as much...

why doesn it?? he is extremely strong 😉 i dont even know why we are debating this. there is no denying juggernaut is the -in- the upper crust of strong men on marvel earth.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-about the atomic thunder thing, Hulk has fought other characters who's punches landed with the power of nuclear explosions...I will go find an issue later...

please do... but in the issue of hulk vs. onslaught is aid the air rang with atomic thunder... i can get an exact quote if you want me too.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-Colossus was not ko'd, since he was still in his steel form...

you of all people should know the inconsistancies of comics. if he reverted to human form juggernaut would have killed him. you know very well that colossus was unconsciouss. please click link below 😉

link - http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing2/Colossus_KO1.txt

colossus is limp... it is quite clear that he is unconsciouss. i doubt he would play oppossum if his team-mates were in danger of being hurt.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-it has been demonstrated that as Hulk's anger increases, it is not only his strength but all his properties that increase...

it has been demonstrated that no matter how mad hulk gets, juggernaut is just as powerful/strong. circles man i tell ya... we gotta get out of this loop.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-whether Onslaught was warping his perceptions or not, Jug did get knocked from Canada to New York, and that is still worth mentioning...

yea, but the circumstances that it happened under are not known. its like saying i didnt see the fight, but i know what happened. but how would you know what happened if you didnt see it??

Originally posted by Wynndar
-the point of me mentioning all the times that Jug was knocked down or hurt by Hulk or even Colossus, is to demonstrate that his invulnerability and unstoppable properties, although much greater, are only marginal just as characters like Rogue, Cannonball, Thor, etc

because hes knocked down?? everybody on your list has never hurt or stopped juggernaut (except the godforce blast)... his name is the unstoppable juggernaut, not the unknockdownable juggernaut 😉 its funny that you mention cannonball and rogue... considering juggernaut doesnt even move in the slightest when cannonball blasts into him, and that juggernaut while severily depowered was choking rogue with 1 hand and whipping colossus with the other 😉

Originally posted by Wynndar
-Comparing Hulk to Jug in their first encounter is fine considering Hulk's strength and powers have increased greatly since then ie. when Banner transformed into the Hulk for the first time he was only capable of lifting 25 tons

and thing 5... but its still irrelavant as his strength is "limitless" and he is capable of "exponentially" increasing his strength in apparently seconds. so why is this time any different?? because it doesnt help your arguement?? thats just dirty.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-Jug. powers increase or develop over time? no, his powers have existed for eons, always the same unless Cyttorak changes them: 8th day, the time two people possessed the ruby, or present day/deceased Jug.

he can potentially increase his powers also. cyttorak didnt change his power when somebody gained control of the juggernaut power. they were using what cain has access too. cain has at time been seen firing long distance attacks from his hands. its what he chooses to learn. and in 8th day for the 1000th time, juggernaut didnt seem any more powerful than usual.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-He may have raged for days but it was still their combined strength that busted that wall...furthermor considering Jug's powers, no wall should be able to hold him

but he was hitting the wall, instead of charging into it. the spell of unstoppable-ness applies to his body as a whole not just his fist 😉 he was physically buldging the walls where as hulk could not. and he was in the cage for how long??? not nearly as long as hulk. maybe a couple minutes... at most.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-He may have raged for days but he was fine after he and Jug left that setting...in their their ensuing fight Hulk's strength started back at base

so instantly his strength decreases?? i doubt it... because it helps your arguement... not much time elapsed between breaking out and them fighting. you act as if it were days. not to mention the other things that pissed hulk off.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-Jugs did not win that fight, it went back and forth and was very even until Hulk threw Jug. away and thought he won.

-thought- he won. but that was still a back and forth fight. juggernaut still exclamed that his attacks were getting -stronger- and hulks -weaker-. so does he have the potential to get stronger on the spot??? i'd say he has -potential- just like hulk.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-Hulk held 150 billion tons...the mountain was probably far more than 150 billion tons but the actual weight Hulk was personally under was said to be 150 billion tons...think about it: a Mountain range dwarfing the Andes only 150 billion tons?

again the weight he supported was that of which was directly over top of him. so it didnt cave in. its like coal mining. those beams they used to use didnt support the entire weight around them, only so it didnt cave in.

Originally posted by Wynndar
-The destroyer, Apoc, Ironclad, Blackbolt, and Jug. havent lifted as much as Thor, Hulk, or Herc, thus I will not consider them as strong until they do

the destroyer has made less appearances than juggernaut yet you are trying to judge his strength... it has more than proven and even been said to have unlimited strength (like hulk). along with apoc... yet they havnt been in the same scenarios so you assume hulk is stronger. apoc also said hulks resistance was futile, to which he easily proved by choking him 🙂

Originally posted by Wynndar
-What Jug. does in a fight is something different all together, his powers make him exceptionally well suited to fighting Thor and Hulk...that says nothing about how strong he is.
-Hulk, Thor, and Herc have lifted many times more than Jug.

irrelavant... just because they have been in a situation that juggs hasnt doesnt mean they are stronger.

Apocalypse can increase his strength by drawing on outside energy sources, his strength is potentially incalculable. He can alter the atomic structure of his body at will in order to change his form. He can even increase his size by taking on additional mass from a presumably extra-dimensional source.

Dont even try and tell me hulk is stronger than Apocalypse, in case you dont know he was the one who beat down hulk and made him War.

apocalypse is the one on the left box

Tough Guy why don't you change your name in Tough Fanboy?
Iron Man defeat Hulk with the Hulk-Buster Armor, and in the "Big Things" Issue, that was released in Italy just 4days ago, i read it and was great to see that Stark was able to create another great armor, yes with the help of banner, but anyway Iron Man beat the living crap out of Hulk, and shoot him a repulsor ray of unbelievable power.
Savage Hulk, the green Hulk, when is quiet and is just not fighting is Class 70, when he starts to enrage he enter and surpass Class 100.