Originally posted by Silent MasterI can read. they get the class 7 b/c they can lift passed 100 tons and can no longer be measured. that doesnt mean a class 6 cant lift a 100 tons. it just means that is where they stop.
If you can actually read, you'll notice that only guys like Thor and the Hulk get the cl 100 ranking.
all u are doing is nitpicking and trolling for a reaction.
Originally posted by Nietzschean
I can read. they get the class 7 b/c they can lift passed 100 tons and can no longer be measured. that doesnt mean a class 6 cant lift a 100 tons. it just means that is where they stop.all u are doing is nitpicking and trolling for a reaction.
Not according to comic feats it doesn't, Guys like the Thing have casually lifted 100 tons in a single hand before.
Originally posted by Silent Masterso what makes u think the ones i listed cant do the same when they have done similar things?
Not according to comic feats it doesn't, Guys like the Thing have casually lifted 100 tons in a single hand before.
Wonderman has bn stated to have Sentry lvl strength.. He has also bn compared to being close match to Thor. he isnt as strong as thor but he is clearly a 100 tonner.
Simon has also been listed as a cl 100 in a few handbooks, it's best to use the ranking system as simply a general guide to who is stronger. In that sense it's more accurate.
Judging by who gets the ratings, cl 100 seems to be reserved for the higher end top tiers, rather than those who can simply lift more than 100 tons.
Which is why I stated Classic Colossus.
-----
To those clinging to the definition, Well; The definition comes from the handbooks and even they don’t follow it, so why should anyone else….it makes more sense to just use the ranking as general guide…as in, the higher the ranking, the stronger/faster/smarter etc the person is.
IOW, cl 100 > 95 > 90 > 85 > 80 etc etc
Originally posted by srankmissingninLike who?
That is a list of largely irrelevant B and C list fighters.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has dozens of victories of that caliber (and higher). I was merely looking at top 10 caliber earth based heroes (ignoring cosmics like Mantis and Gamora, and earth based "old masters" like Izo, Po and Stick... and Wolverine has wins over some from both of those categories as well).
Oh really? Id like to see those. Stick absolutely humiliated Wolverine. The Gamora fight was such a breif struggle its basically a glorified stalemate.
Originally posted by srankmissingninyes I am aware of their fights. Wolverine wasn't particularly skilled in those fights. He relies on his skeleton and his HF.
There are tons of skilled fighters that Wolverine has beaten that are below the top 10 parameters. Panther, Psylocke (who are were actually on some posters top 10 MA list once Iron Fist got upgraded to ubre tier), Silver Samurai, Shatterstar, Raza, Nemesis, Lady Deathstrike, even Zaran and Razorfist
Originally posted by srankmissingninSo those guys have enhanced reflexes that allow them to see in slow motion?
are better than Ziess,
Originally posted by srankmissingninKG Beast and NKV Demon are peers of the Top 10. These guys have the stats to fight Aquaman evenly.
KGBeast and NKV Demon, and you start naming guys like that you can go on virtually indefinitely.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Prior to the reboot DC's top 10 was something like (just looking at standard continuity no Karate Kids, Nemesis Kid or Batman 1million): Sensei, Dragon, Shiva, Cass, Turner, Black Canary, Connor Hawke, Batman, Tommy Jagger, Constantine Drakon
Who's Tommy Jagger? And Black Canary and Connor Hawke on the Top 10? That is ridiculous.
Its something like this. No particular order.
Batman
Cassandra Cain
Shiva
Prometheus
Azreal
Dragon
Bronze Tiger
Sensei
Rais al Ghul (in his prime)
David Caine
Deathstroke
Batman has a win or stalemate on all of these guys.
Wolverine has a win on Cap Shang and DD, and only one of those (Cap) has a winning record on.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Batman has no legit wins over any of those top ten. He's beaten Shiva because she was mind controlled, and stalemated her every other time they've exchanged (some of which were no longer canon).
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He may or may not have gotten the edge over Cass in a spar, and had the edge in their first encounter... but that was merely a conversation between the two (fighting was the only way she could communicate at the time).
So instead of talking they were fighting. So it was a fight then right?
Originally posted by srankmissingninWhen did Batman lose to her? Not only held his own but looked superior and got in more hits.
I have them tied at one, neither of the other two exchanges count as fights. He also held his own against her in Batgirl 50.
Originally posted by srankmissingninSensei is still above the Top End Streel Level.
Batman did defeat Sensei... but only because in spite of his skill he has terrible stamina and endurance.
Originally posted by srankmissingninyes they have 2 stalemates actually. Bruce is 0 1 2 with Ben. BT has also Stalemated Deathstroke.
Batman has lost to Bronze Tiger, and held his own with him on second encounter before being taken out with a tranq,
Originally posted by srankmissingninThe Dragon fight is not in continuity, but the BT fights still are.
He also held his own against Dragon. But both the Dragon and Tiger examples are pre crisis.
Originally posted by srankmissingninHe still lost the fight. And that's a better example of a fight than Wolverine vs IF.
Shang-Chi almost knocked Wolverine off the roof of a tower in a training season. I'm not sure how that constitutes a victory, even ignoring that it was a training season and not a fight, if Wolverine had fallen... he would have been fine.
Originally posted by srankmissingninyou could have fooled me lol.
Shang-Chi was trying to teach Wolverine, Wolverine came to him to learn. They weren't trying to beat each other up. Wolverine is 1-0 with Shang-Chi.
Are you counting the IF fight but not the second Shang Chi fight? Hypocrosy much?
Originally posted by srankmissingninHow was Wolverine weakened? What does his soul have to do with durability or fighting skill? Still counts as a loss.
Elektra never beat Wolverine. She was getting better of a weakened mind controlled Wolverine, and probably would have beaten him had the fight been allowed to continue... but the hole Wolverine blew in the ship flooded the corridors with water and swept him away.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Nick Fury has never beaten Wolverine. HoM Nick Fury beat HoM Wolverine, but that is irrelevant. In standard continuity Wolverine has beaten Fury two or three times, and almost killed him recently.
Originally posted by srankmissingninit was a one on one fight bro. And Wolvie attacked DD first. And what proof do you have that its not in continuity?
Ok it was HOM. Ill remove that from Wolvies record. Not familiar with their other fights so ill take your word for it.[QUOTE=13749173]Originally posted by srankmissingnin
[B] Daredevil managed to drop Wolverine for two panels with a throat punch in a 2 on 1 fight in an Ennis comic.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In EOTS he managed to momentarily break Wolverine's brain washing and remove the reason for the fight.
Yea after he got his ass kicked with a group of hand ninjas as backup lol.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And worst Wolverine is 1-1-1 with Daredevil, and considering the context behind that win (which even aside from being terrible Ennis BS forces us to assume that Wolverine was incapacitated by that punch and didn't get up immediately) it's a complete write off.
Because you say so right? Sorry bro Wolvie is 1 2 1 with DD. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Originally posted by srankmissingningood to know. Wolvie lost to X23 recently as well right? He is sooo skilled!!
Wolverine and Daken are tied right now.
Originally posted by srankmissingninI'm not aware of their other fights. Scans? I only count the rocket launcher fight anyway.
Punisher parked a steam roller on top of Wolverine after a team up (because some midgets gut his hamstrings with chainsaws... wtf), and shot Wolverine with a rocket launcher. Both in Ennis books. There real fights have finished before either of the could win, or Wolverine was the victor.
Originally posted by srankmissingninWolvie was still knocked out.
The dear was a ploy to teach is student a lesson.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has legitimate wins over top 10 MAs, straight up victories that aren't the result of mind control, or merely the results of a sparring season / training match. Batman can't say the same thing, the best he can offer is that he has held his own against top 10 martial artists... but the fact is he never beats them.
Your skewed interpretation of Batmans record is filled with bias. As is your opinion on Wolverines record. At best Wolverine has 1 win on Cap. And dead even or worse with everyone else.
Originally posted by Letters
Like who?
Virtually all of them.
Originally posted by Letters
Oh really? Id like to see those. Stick absolutely humiliated Wolverine. The Gamora fight was such a breif struggle its basically a glorified stalemate.
Stick whacked Wolverine a couple of times when Wolverine thought he was a crazy old, the moment Wolverine got feed up Stick was unable to lay a finger on him. According to some people on the forums (not me) Gamora is a top tier cosmic Martial Artist on par with Karate Kid (people who think that are crazy). Wolverine looked blades with her and dropped her with a gut check. She was "distracted"... but Wolverine had the same distraction as she did, and he didn't drop step. She is supposed to be a professional. Shigen and Ogun also transcend the street level MA top tier and he has beaten both of them.
Originally posted by Letters
yes I am aware of their fights. Wolverine wasn't particularly skilled in those fights. He relies on his skeleton and his HF.
Some of them, a lot of them are several panel ownages where he doesn't get hit.
Originally posted by Letters
So those guys have enhanced reflexes that allow them to see in slow motion?
No... but they don't get beat up by Catwoman. What's Ziess' best win? Travis? He sounds better on paper than he actually is. Batman destroyed quickly and effortlessly the last time they fought.
Originally posted by Letters
KG Beast and NKV Demon are peers of the Top 10. These guys have the stats to fight Aquaman evenly.
No they aren't. KGBeast had a good showing when he first appeared and almost beat Batman... but since then he has sucked and so have all his predecessors who took up the name. They've both been beaten by Nightwing. Effortlessly. KGBeast was killed by Harvey Dent in h2h... I think King Snake even beat him.
Originally posted by Letters
Who's Tommy Jagger? And Black Canary and Connor Hawke on the Top 10? That is ridiculous.
Personal favorite. He is unknown and underrated and it's a travesty. He did this to a Venomed up Bane:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/82685/1777414-1045645_checkmate_v2_012_08_super_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/82685/1777415-1045646_checkmate_v2_012_09_super_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/82685/1777416-1045647_checkmate_v2_012_10_super_super.jpg
Both Canary and Connor have held their own against both Shiva and Cass in melee combat. There spots on a top 10 list are undeniable. Outside of Tommy and Drakon, my list is essentially forum consensus (my list doesn't include Karate Kid because I make a point to separate him from the standard continuity characters, which gives me an extra free space).
Originally posted by Letters
Its something like this. No particular order.Batman
Cassandra Cain
Shiva
Prometheus
Azreal
Dragon
Bronze Tiger
Sensei
Rais al Ghul (in his prime)
David Caine
Deathstroke
That's a terrible list (even ignoring the fact that there are eleven names on your supposed top 10 list). Nightwing has beat half of substitutions (Deathstroke and Ra's) on your list, Azrael got by on his superhuman stats, I believe Nightwing even said as much too him. The only one who could be argued for a top 10 position is Prometheus. You can make a better case for Nightwing, Wildcat and Catman for top ten then any of your subs... even Bane.
Originally posted by Letters
Wolverine has a win on Cap Shang and DD, and only one of those (Cap) has a winning record on.
Marvel's top ten Earth based MAs is something like: Mandarin, Temugin, Wolverine, Cap, Elektra, Iron Fist, Shang-Chi, Daredevil, Cat and there is some wiggle room for the last spot (Black Panther, Psylocke (post Ogun training) and Deadpool, among others... maybe Winder Soldier). Wolverine has a winning record over Cap, Shang-Chi, DD and Iron Fist, a No Contest against Elektra, he's had brief exchanges against Mandarin but nothing h2h or anything significant enough to call a fight, and he's never fought Cat or Temugin. He has wins over just about anyone you can pick for the last 10 spot.
Originally posted by Letters
What proof do have Shiva was hindered by the mind control?
Ignoring the fact that we've seen them fight twice before, where they competed evenly over prolonged engagements (which makes Batman one shotting her a completely nonsensical occurrence), mind control being a hindrance is a forum concurrences. It's a plot device that allows one character to beat another one with sullying that character's record.
Originally posted by Letters
So instead of talking they were fighting. So it was a fight then right?
They were fighting as talking... which is confusing... but requires a distinction.
Originally posted by Letters
When did Batman lose to her? Not only held his own but looked superior and got in more hits.
He didn't, I meant that he has one stalemate and zero wins, zero loses. Their only real fight was the stalemate in Batgirl 50.
Originally posted by Letters
Sensei is still above the Top End Streel Level.
True. He is the only DC old master we've seen actually do anything, where as the skill levels of Kirigi, I-Ching and O-Sensei are all hypothetical. But Batman didn't beat him because of his skill, he beat him via out lasting his terrible stamina.
Originally posted by Letters
yes they have 2 stalemates actually. Bruce is 0 1 2 with Ben. BT has also Stalemated Deathstroke.
You are counting the team fight in Suicide Squad (or was it JLI)? There isn't enough there for me personally to warrant it's inclusion, its like the Wolverine vs Cap in Children's Crusade, but maybe you are right and it should be mentioned.
Originally posted by Letters
The Dragon fight is not in continuity, but the BT fights still are.
I don't know man, Turners continuity is a mess. He has under gone several retcon's in the last decade thanks to Batgirl and Shiva, and those fights were Pre Crisis to begin with.
Originally posted by Letters
He still lost the fight. And that's a better example of a fight than Wolverine vs IF.
No its not. Wolverine and Iron Fist fought each other to show case their skill and to see who was better. Wolverine came to Shang-Chi for training to learn to control the Berserker. Completely different scenarios. How on earth is the Shang-Chi a better example of a fight? Because Wolverine lost? Get that tired bias out of here.
Originally posted by Letters
How was Wolverine weakened? What does his soul have to do with durability or fighting skill? Still counts as a loss.
His healing factor was barely functioning? Who knows how, the soul doesn't exist, it's metaphysical nonsense... but its real in comics and apparently missing apart of it in comics is detrimental to ones physical and mental well being.
How is it a loss? Wolverine's plan was to flood the ship and escape... which he did. Do all the times Batman was losing before one his plans kick in count as a loss? I don't think so. The fight is a No Contest.
Originally posted by Letters
it was a one on one fight bro. And Wolvie attacked DD first. And what proof do you have that its not in continuity?
No it wasn't, it was Spider-man and Daredevil vs Wolverine. That is two on one. That's really basic math. I never said it wasn't in continuity, I said it's an irrelevant piece of PIS, written by Garth Ennis... which it is.
Originally posted by Letters
Yea after he got his ass kicked with a group of hand ninjas as backup lol.
Got his ass kicked? He got tackled down the stairs... that's it. Prior to Matt knocking his mind control loss with the dumbbell Wolverine was winning the exchange. He kicked Matt across the room rolling out of the tackle I mentioned above, landed a knew when Matt tried to control his wrists, and slashed him on the exit. The fight stopped because Wolverine was free of his mind control and the reason for the fight was over... not to mention it's implied that Wolverine's job was just to keep Daredevil busy while the killed Elektra, and that he wasn't actually trying to take DD down.
Originally posted by Letters
Because you say so right? Sorry bro Wolvie is 1 2 1 with DD. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Because the context of the fights in connection with the forum rules say so. Daredevils one "win" (I'm using the term very loosely) is PIS and irrelevant.
Originally posted by Letters
good to know. Wolvie lost to X23 recently as well right? He is sooo skilled!!
No he didn't. He let her beat up on him so she could work some stuff out because he can take it. Do you read these comics, or just look at the art work? There is important text on the pages that gives you the context behind what you are looking at.
Originally posted by Letters
Wolvie was still knocked out.
Was he? Or was it part of his test?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Virtually all of them.
Be specific here.
This is my list of Top Ten and peers of the Top Ten
Batman
Cass
Shiva
BT
Dragon
David Caine
Rais Al Ghul
Bane
Nightwing
Azreal
Prometheus
Zeiss
Hawkman
KGBeast
NKVDemon
Deathstroke
Now which ones are B and C listers? And Why?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Stick whacked Wolverine a couple of times when Wolverine thought he was a crazy old, the moment Wolverine got feed up Stick was unable to lay a finger on him.
Wow. What a blatant lie.
Stick did whack Wolvie with a sucker shot. Then they got separated, Wolverine came back and got mad, popped his claws, and got handled with something like 6 consecutive hits. Then they jump around the fire for a bit. Stick completely humiliated Wolvie there brah. Its interesting how you attempt to spin it tho lol.
Originally posted by srankmissingninYea Batmans 2 fights with KK completely blow that away.
According to some people on the forums (not me) Gamora is a top tier cosmic Martial Artist on par with Karate Kid (people who think that are crazy). Wolverine looked blades with her and dropped her with a gut check. She was "distracted"... but Wolverine had the same distraction as she did, and he didn't drop step. She is supposed to be a professional.
Originally posted by srankmissingninWho has Shigen defeated? Why is he the top tier MA?
Shigen and Ogun also transcend the street level MA top tier and he has beaten both of them.
He was waaaay more skilled than Wolvie btw. Wolvie absorbed throat and torso stabs thruout the fight and barely won.
Also I know Ogun has some lip service. Got any feats for this guy?
Originally posted by srankmissingninGot any examples to referrence?
Some of them, a lot of them are several panel ownages where he doesn't get hit.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No... but they don't get beat up by Catwoman. What's Ziess' best win? Travis? He sounds better on paper than he actually is. Batman destroyed quickly and effortlessly the last time they fought.
What is your opinion on Midnighter? Is he a peer of the Top 10 ?
He was handling Catwoman lile a ragdoll. Then she nullified his special sight with help from Batman. Not his best moment. Zeiss has a better record than Shigen.
Originally posted by srankmissingninlol. Good point about KGBeast.
No they aren't. KGBeast had a good showing when he first appeared and almost beat Batman... but since then he has sucked and so have all his predecessors who took up the name. They've both been beaten by Nightwing. Effortlessly. KGBeast was killed by Harvey Dent in h2h... I think King Snake even beat him.
NKVDemon fought Aquaman evenly much like Wolvie has fought Namor. He may not be A-List skill but he is def A-List formidability.
Originally posted by srankmissingninGreat showing.
Personal favorite. He is unknown and underrated and it's a travesty. He did this to a Venomed up Bane:
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Both Canary and Connor have held their own against both Shiva and Cass in melee combat. There spots on a top 10 list are undeniable. Outside of Tommy and Drakon, my list is essentially forum consensus (my list doesn't include Karate Kid because I make a point to separate him from the standard continuity characters, which gives me an extra free space).
Connor lost bad to Shiva and was about to die. How does that earn him a spot in the Top 10?
Black Canary has stated she is below Connor even after the Shiva training she got.
Originally posted by srankmissingninCheck my list above. Ill be eagerly waiting your responses for who you consider B list.
That's a terrible list (even ignoring the fact that there are eleven names on your supposed top 10 list). Nightwing has beat half of substitutions (Deathstroke and Ra's) on your list, Azrael got by on his superhuman stats, I believe Nightwing even said as much too him. The only one who could be argued for a top 10 position is Prometheus. You can make a better case for Nightwing, Wildcat and Catman for top ten then any of your subs... even Bane.
Originally posted by srankmissingninSo you are counting the Iron Fist fight and not counting the second Shang Chi fight? Hypocrosy much?
Marvel's top ten Earth based MAs is something like: Mandarin, Temugin, Wolverine, Cap, Elektra, Iron Fist, Shang-Chi, Daredevil, Cat and there is some wiggle room for the last spot (Black Panther, Psylocke (post Ogun training) and Deadpool, among others... maybe Winder Soldier). Wolverine has a winning record over Cap, Shang-Chi, DD and Iron Fist,
By your own admission Wolvie is even with DD. You are lying from post to post here lol. And Wolvie has a winning record on Cap ONLY. As far as Top 10 MA's is concerned.
Originally posted by srankmissingninBatman has wins or stalemates on evryone considered Top 10. This is undeniable.
a No Contest against Elektra, he's had brief exchanges against Mandarin but nothing h2h or anything significant enough to call a fight, and he's never fought Cat or Temugin. He has wins over just about anyone you can pick for the last 10 spot.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Ignoring the fact that we've seen them fight twice before, where they competed evenly over prolonged engagements (which makes Batman one shotting her a completely nonsensical occurrence), mind control being a hindrance is a forum concurrences. It's a plot device that allows one character to beat another one with sullying that character's record.
How does mind control affect ones durability? Shiva seemed even more skilled as she has never shown speed blitz fighting against Batman before. How is that a hinderance other than the "forum consensus" excuse?
Their first encounter wasn't long at all, just a couple parries and blocks, then they fought back to back. Their second fight was the most extensive.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They were fighting as talking... which is confusing... but requires a distinction.
So in order to communicate they were fighting. Which Batman won.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He didn't, I meant that he has one stalemate and zero wins, zero loses. Their only real fight was the stalemate in Batgirl 50.
He still beat her in their first fight. That a 1-0-1 record he has with her.
Originally posted by srankmissingninYes it was one of those issues where their 3rd fight took place.
You are counting the team fight in Suicide Squad (or was it JLI)? There isn't enough there for me personally to warrant it's inclusion, its like the Wolverine vs Cap in Children's Crusade, but maybe you are right and it should be mentioned.
Originally posted by srankmissingninThe fights could still fit in continuity tho imo.
I don't know man, Turners continuity is a mess. He has under gone several retcon's in the last decade thanks to Batgirl and Shiva, and those fights were Pre Crisis to begin with.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No its not. Wolverine and Iron Fist fought each other to show case their skill and to see who was better. Wolverine came to Shang-Chi for training to learn to control the Berserker. Completely different scenarios. How on earth is the Shang-Chi a better example of a fight? Because Wolverine lost? Get that tired bias out of here.
In the Shang Chi fight it seems they were really fighting as opposed to the IF fight. Either count them both or don't count either.
Originally posted by srankmissingninyea. "Apparently" you don't have an explanation for how that affected Wolverine physically.
His healing factor was barely functioning? Who knows how, the soul doesn't exist, it's metaphysical nonsense... but its real in comics and apparently missing apart of it in comics is detrimental to ones physical and mental well being.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
How is it a loss? Wolverine's plan was to flood the ship and escape... which he did. Do all the times Batman was losing before one his plans kick in count as a loss? I don't think so. The fight is a No Contest.
So it was Wolverine plan to escape rather than fight? That's a loss bro 😉
Like if Batman escaped from a villain rather than fighting would count as a loss a well.
Originally posted by srankmissingninSpiderman was out of the fight before DD was even there. Show me the scan of DD and Spidrman fighting Wolverine at the same time please.
No it wasn't, it was Spider-man and Daredevil vs Wolverine. That is two on one. That's really basic math. I never said it wasn't in continuity, I said it's an irrelevant piece of PIS, written by Garth Ennis... which it is.
Boy, the lies just don't stop with you do they? lol
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Got his ass kicked? He got tackled down the stairs... that's it. Prior to Matt knocking his mind control loss with the dumbbell Wolverine was winning the exchange. He kicked Matt across the room rolling out of the tackle I mentioned above, landed a knew when Matt tried to control his wrists, and slashed him on the exit. The fight stopped because Wolverine was free of his mind control and the reason for the fight was over... not to mention it's implied that Wolverine's job was just to keep Daredevil busy while the killed Elektra, and that he wasn't actually trying to take DD down.
In other words you are saying that Wolverine was winning, until he lost. lol
And Yea, it takes a group of hand ninjas AND Wolverine just to keep DD busy.
DD won when he kicked Wolvie into a sword and he was so injured he couldn't continue the fight. Great showing for Wolvie! lol
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because the context of the fights in connection with the forum rules say so. Daredevils one "win" (I'm using the term very loosely) is PIS and irrelevant.
Yea its PIS because you don't like it. Even tho its conistent with DD fight carreer.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No he didn't. He let her beat up on him so she could work some stuff out because he can take it. Do you read these comics, or just look at the art work? There is important text on the pages that gives you the context behind what you are looking at.
Actually he was depending on his HF like a crutch like he usually does. X23 used a clever tactic to nullify his HF showing how unskilled Wolverine really is. Instead of defending himself he counted on his HF. Which is a mistake that Batman will take advantage of.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Was he? Or was it part of his test?
Originally posted by LettersYou're simplifying too much, I think you have to look at each instance individually instead of saying tactical retreat/avoiding an unneccessary fight = loss. I'm not sure which instance you two are talking about here but just in general.
So it was Wolverine plan to escape rather than fight? That's a loss bro 😉Like if Batman escaped from a villain rather than fighting would count as a loss a well.
Originally posted by Parmaniac
You're simplifying too much, I think you have to look at each instance individually instead of saying tactical retreat/avoiding an unneccessary fight = loss. I'm not sure which instance you two are talking about here but just in general.
Wolverine vs Elektra.
A tactical retreat means the hero knows they can't win the fight. That's why they escape. Wolverine was already on the losing end of that fight as well.
Originally posted by Letters
Wolverine vs Elektra.A tactical retreat means the hero knows they can't win the fight. That's why they escape. Wolverine was already on the losing end of that fight as well.
Which would be true if Wolverine was the hero in that instance, but he wasn't. He was a villain that was "rescued" so that he could download Shields files, and then get out of there. Was he outfought by Elektra? Not really. He'd been on life support minutes before the fight began, she paralyzed him while he was fighting a half dozen agents, and then the prep he'd setup beforehand allowed him to get away, just as he'd planned. Elektra didn't beat Wolverine in combat, she just showed off a little bit of pressure point knowledge, then landed two blows before she was swept away. As S-Rank said, it was a no-contest.
Originally posted by Ize19
Which would be true if Wolverine was the hero in that instance, but he wasn't. He was a villain that was "rescued" so that he could download Shields files, and then get out of there.
Yea but, who NEEDS to escape from Elektra? She's a tier below DD and possibly even lower guys like Bullseye. DD has a winning record on Wolvie as well.
Originally posted by Ize19 Was he outfought by Elektra? Not really. [/B]
Originally posted by Ize19 He'd been on life support minutes before the fight began, [/B]
Originally posted by Ize19 she paralyzed him while he was fighting a half dozen agents, and then the prep he'd setup beforehand allowed him to get away, just as he'd planned. Elektra didn't beat Wolverine in combat, she just showed off a little bit of pressure point knowledge, then landed two blows before she was swept away. As S-Rank said, it was a no-contest. [/B]
Even if you don't count it as a straight up win for Elektra it still proves that Wolverine can be hurt by pressure points leading to the result that he has to escape to not die. If Elektra can do that being on the lower tier of Marvel MA's, Batman would have a field day with poor Wolverine, far outclassing him in skill and speed.
Originally posted by Letters
Yea but, who NEEDS to escape from Elektra? She's a tier below DD and possibly even lower guys like Bullseye. DD has a winning record on Wolvie as well.I beg to differ friend.
So he was on life support AND his HF had plenty of time to heal any prev injuries. Check.
Even if you don't count it as a straight up win for Elektra it still proves that Wolverine can be hurt by pressure points leading to the result that he has to escape to not die. If Elektra can do that being on the lower tier of Marvel MA's, Batman would have a field day with poor Wolverine, far outclassing him in skill and speed.
I'll get to your other posts latter, but I'll address this first.
First off Elektra is a tier above Daredevil. Matt has never beaten her in a fight, even before she was resurrected and got a substantial skill and ability boost she was getting the better of him.
Second off Wolverine didn't "need" to escape from Elektra, nor was he trying to escape from Elektra. He was trying to escape from SHIELD custody and sink their ship... which he did with a plan he put into place before he started fighting Elektra or even knew she was there. He was engaged in combat with her when the plan went into action... but that is it.
Wolverine is immune to pressure points. If his healing factor is working, they are completely ineffective. Elektra benefited from the fact that Wolverine had a barely functioning healing factor, and was being kept alive by SHIELD tech moments prior and was on enough tranqs to sedate the Hulk.
It's really BS to think that Wolverine is unbeatable for and skilled fighter and that he can't be hurt by such people, this fight isn't to the death, an koed schould be enough. Batman has the skill to fight Logan, he has the gadgets to compete even with his claws and he has the history to show that he can deal with superpowered enemies.
In an comic a fight between those two would most likely be 50-50, because of DC with an most likely victory for Batman. ^^
Originally posted by srankmissingninAt best she's dead even with Bullseye. Matt has defeated Bullseye literally a dozen times over. Bullseye and Elektra are a step below DD.
I'll get to your other posts latter, but I'll address this first.First off Elektra is a tier above Daredevil. Matt has never beaten her in a fight, even before she was resurrected and got a substantial skill and ability boost she was getting the better of him.
And he has looked superior to her when they have fought. DD is more skilled bro.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Second off Wolverine didn't "need" to escape from Elektra, nor was he trying to escape from Elektra.
So he was losing while not trying to escape. Gotcha.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He was trying to escape from SHIELD custody and sink their ship... which he did with a plan he put into place before he started fighting Elektra or even knew she was there. He was engaged in combat with her when the plan went into action... but that is it.
And he was losing quite badley.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine is immune to pressure points.
Elektra sure affected him. DD's throatchop affected him as well.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If his healing factor is working, they are completely ineffective. Elektra benefited from the fact that Wolverine had a barely functioning healing factor, and was being kept alive by SHIELD tech moments prior and was on enough tranqs to sedate the Hulk.
So Wolverines HF isn't as formidable as you say it is. If he needed life support and tranqs affected him then he doesn't heal from class 100 damage in miliseconds as you claim. In fact he should have been fresh after waking up with the added benefit of life support machines. So which is it?
Batman carries tranqs as well. This is turning out to be a recipe for disaster for Wolverine.
