Pics not working? That seems to be going around these days. Stupid internets.
http://static.zerochan.net/full/33/05/930283.jpg
http://static.zerochan.net/full/24/19/920974.jpg
Hw about the urls?
Pics not working? That seems to be going around these days. Stupid internets.
http://static.zerochan.net/full/33/05/930283.jpg
http://static.zerochan.net/full/24/19/920974.jpg
Hw about the urls?
Masashi Kishimoto didn't have the series planned out until Naruto fought and defeated Pain -- as announced in a volume during that period.
So there may well be inconsistencies. The trouble, however, is to identify what's inconsistent; which is far easier said than done. Because you'll have to base it off actual evidence -- and not just gut feeling -- in order to plausibly present it. The problem arises when the author avoids to tackle these inconsistencies. As far as established canon is concerned Hiruzen Sarutobi -- even as an old man -- is the strongest hokage, capable of taking down both the first- and the second hokage as well as permanently damaging Orochimaru's body. But as far as feats are concerned, and Orochimaru's power in contrast to the other villains, Hizuren didn't come across as particularly impressive. Compare it to Orochimaru's battle against Itachi which was determined at glance, literally.
I'd have Hizuren in the same tier as current Madara, because that's what the canon material points to, and how else would you order him? His battle record isn't particularly extensive.
As for the summons being listed, I'd say no. Because they're mostly supplementary, and the part of a shinobi's arsenal and intertwined with their strategies.
Originally posted by Q99
So it looks like we're looking at A+ for the exceptional summons, S- for the sage mode using toad elders (as they do use genjutsu), A for the merely big or ones with lesser special abilities...Hm, where should we put the Clam? I mean, it's got very little in the way of offense but it's genjutsu is great.
I'm not counting that ^^
A+ for all exceptional summons excluding the Sage Elders, and A for all the ones that are not exceptional? Should be a little more diverse than that.
A or A- for the clam. Singular but powerful in terms of support, no direct offense and a weak defense once the genjutsu is broken.
Should put a note next to Animal Path then. 😛
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nah. It's Hiruzen wank.
I'm all for wanking Hiruzen in his prime who I would put as > Minato. vin 60+ year old Hiruzen was weaksauce and Orochimaru was screwing around.
Hiruzen is clearly equal to the Sage, cause both were called the "God of Shinobi" by some random jerk off in chapter 55. And the sharingan totes came from the Byakugan. And Jiraiya could beat Itachi and Kisame at the same time while protecting two kids. And Naruto couldn't beat a weakened Sasuke who was two seconds away from passing out.
😬
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Hiruzen is clearly equal to the Sage, cause both were called the "God of Shinobi" by some random jerk off in chapter 55. And the sharingan totes came from the Byakugan. And Jiraiya could beat Itachi and Kisame at the same time while protecting two kids. And Naruto couldn't beat a weakened Sasuke who was two seconds away from passing out.😬
No, Jiraiya would die in the process of defeating Kisame and Itachi at the same time.
And the Byakugan was worded in such a way to leave room for doubt :that it 'was said to come from', not that it actually came from. Hearsay is not the same thing as "strongest of the Hokage's" and "god of the shinobi". If he really was stronger than the first and the second at the same time, he really was one of the strongest shinobi ever...in his prime.
Even the people looking on to the fight said he was fighting dismally compared to his prime self...yet he matched revived first and second hokage AND Oro. Suck on that and Hiruzen's knutz. uhuh
Originally posted by Q99
I'd be nice if we knew at least one foe that Hiruzen actually fought in his prime ^^
All we know is that the version we saw in battle was nothing compared to how he was at his Prime. His Prime could be anything from SSS to S+.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Hiruzen is clearly equal to the Sage, cause both were called the "God of Shinobi" by some random jerk off in chapter 55. And the sharingan totes came from the Byakugan. And Jiraiya could beat Itachi and Kisame at the same time while protecting two kids. And Naruto couldn't beat a weakened Sasuke who was two seconds away from passing out.😬
This shit is also stated in the databooks a lot of you like to fall back on. vin
Oh, and Naruto actually could not beat a near-blind fatigued Sasuke when they fought at the Bridge.
Well...Hashirama beat the Kyuubi and Madara Uchiha at the same time. Hiruzen was pissing himself when fighting half of that team of monsters.
And considering Hiruzen ended up dead in that confrontation, it's safe to say he lost.
Keep in mind, Hashirama has tricks that he apparently didn't use in that fight and Hiruzen was still struggling. Could it be Edo Tensei made them weaker? Well possible but I prefer the idea that Orochimaru was just dicking around and held them back from doing their best stuff.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
All we know is that the version we saw in battle was nothing compared to how he was at his Prime. His Prime could be anything from SSS to S+.This shit is also stated in the databooks a lot of you like to fall back on. vin
Oh, and Naruto actually could not beat a near-blind fatigued Sasuke when they fought at the Bridge.
Cause he was poisoned. Naruto really didn't know that at the time. 😛
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, Jiraiya would die in the process of defeating Kisame and Itachi at the same time.And the Byakugan was worded in such a way to leave room for doubt :that it 'was said to come from', not that it actually came from. Hearsay is not the same thing as "strongest of the Hokage's" and "god of the shinobi". If he really was stronger than the first and the second at the same time, he really was one of the strongest shinobi ever...in his prime.
Even the people looking on to the fight said he was fighting dismally compared to his prime self...yet he matched revived first and second hokage AND Oro. Suck on that and Hiruzen's knutz. uhuh
Kisame would hold his own, but I think most people would give Jiraiya the edge and the win. Itachi would beat Jiraiya by himself.
The Byakugan is SMALL-TIEM.
Old man Hiruzen was stronger than (the now)pussified versions of the first two Kages. If Edo Hashirama was shown to be half as powerful and versatile as the latest chapters have stated him to be when he alive, Orochimaru would have had a far far easier time taking over Konoha, never mind fighting Hiruzen.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngelCause he was poisoned. Naruto really didn't know that at the time. 😛
313
Terumi and Naruto!
Originally posted by NemeBro
It is patently obvious that Kishimoto, at the time of Hiruzen's death, had not yet worked out how powerful he wanted Hashirama to be.
Yea, I think this is the case.
While he planned a lot in advance, as-of that fight, it was really clear that Minato was the one that Hiruzen was truly afraid of facing.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Kisame would hold his own, but I think most people would give Jiraiya the edge and the win. Itachi would beat Jiraiya by himself.
I think Jiraiya would kill Itachi and Kisame at the same time but would lose his life. Jiraiya would probably take a Amaterasu to his person in the process of having to dodge and hurt those other two.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Old man Hiruzen was stronger than (the now)pussified versions of the first two Kages. If Edo Hashirama was shown to be half as powerful and versatile as the latest chapters have stated him to be when he alive, Orochimaru would have had a far far easier time taking over Konoha, never mind fighting Hiruzen.
Dude, Hashirama built that giant ass forest in no time flat, when fighting Hiruzen. the fight was till epic and not was "under powered" as everyone makes it out to be.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well...Hashirama beat the Kyuubi and Madara Uchiha at the same time. Hiruzen was pissing himself when fighting half of that team of monsters.
Here's what actually happened:
Madara tried to attack with Kurama and Hasirama wrestled control from Madara because Hashirama's control was superior to Madara's. Then it became a Kurama and Hashirama vs. Madara fight.
Hiruzen was fighting against 3 kage level fighters at the same time. A feat only matched by Madara fused with hashirama. mwhahahahaha
Gonna do a tentative summon list just to get it on type. I probably misremembered several of the recommendations and messed stuff up, but hey, tentative, I want you to correct me:
Fukasaku / Shima- S- (they got ninjutsu, they got genjutsu, they got strength...)
Enma- A+ (thought about going to S- but... is he really stronger than pre-timeskip Gai?)
Multi-Headed Dog- A+ (was fighting *three* giant toads. And losing, granted, but being restrained rather than killed)
Manda V2- A+
Ibuse the Salamander- A+
Clam- A
Baku- A
Gamabunta- A
Manda- A
Katsuyu- A
Gamahiro/Gamaken- A- (like Gamabunta with no shown ninjutsu)
Kamatari- B+
Snake Tailed Chameleon- B+
Drill Beaked Bird- B+ (or should it get A- for flight and bombs? Though to be honest I have trouble seeing any of the Pain summons aside from the dog beating a jonin)
Giant Crab- B+
Giant Ox/Panda/Rhino- B
Giant Centipedes- B-
Logic- the frogs and bosses all showed skill, while Pain's ones all seemed fairly dumb. The three bosses specifically also had jutsu and abilities (even Manda- he could burrow underground, and shed his snake as a decoy). Ibuse seems the badded salamander around. Wide-area poison and can do the underground thing. THe Pains ones with jutsu rated higher than those without.
Also- what about Tayuya's creepy giant trio that spit energy-draining ghosts, the Doki?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's what actually happened:Madara tried to attack with Kurama and Hasirama wrestled control from Madara because Hashirama's control was superior to Madara's. Then it became a Kurama and Hashirama vs. Madara fight.
Hiruzen was fighting against 3 kage level fighters at the same time. A feat only matched by Madara fused with hashirama. mwhahahahaha
You haven't actually seen the fight. Given the glimpses of the fight, it's safer to say that Hashirama had to man handle both of them. He looked pretty fawked up afterwards admittedly.
All three of them seemed to hold back their best stuff. 🙂
Originally posted by Zack Fair
Are you guys talking about this?Also...Hiruzen is boss.
I've seen that but I question how canon it is. Mostly cause I want the fight to be cooler than that....
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You haven't actually seen the fight. Given the glimpses of the fight, it's safer to say that Hashirama had to man handle both of them. He looked pretty fawked up afterwards admittedly.All three of them seemed to hold back their best stuff. 🙂
You haven't seen the fight, either. Given that Hashirama would have to lure Madara aware from the village all the way to the Valley of the end, he must have been on the defensive for most of the fight until they got far enough away. Must have been rough getting there because Hashirama is no Minato*.
*Come at me. mwhahahahaha