The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Who says genjutsu would even work on him?

A's Raiton Shroud amped reflexes made him immune to a Sharingan genjutsu, and it is all but certain that the 3rd's reflexes are just as fast when he's using his Raiton Shroud. Whether or not that applies to MS genjutsu remains to be seen.

1. Where was it ever pointed out that A's raiton armor made him immune to Sasuke's genjutsu? I just read the fight and I do not see it anywhere in there.

2. Naruto did state the third was as fast as A.

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. Where was it ever pointed out that A's raiton armor made him immune to Sasuke's genjutsu? I just read the fight and I do not see it anywhere in there.

2. Naruto did state the third was as fast as A.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

I'm certain he was trying to trap A in a genjutsu here. All but certain the same genjutsu was then used to floor C.

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Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

I'm certain he was trying to trap A in a genjutsu here. All but certain the same genjutsu was then used to floor C.

I read all of chapter 462 and what you're implying is just not in the chapter, man.

If the thing you're posting is what I think it is, he is trying to stab the Raikage with a chidori as seen in the very next chapter, first page.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v49/c463//

Gah. Damn Mangareader. Works fine for me, but not you guys apparently.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v49/c462/3.html

Page 3 of Chapter 462.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Gah. Damn Mangareader. Works fine for me, but not you guys apparently.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v49/c462/3.html

Page 3 of Chapter 462.

And here's when Sasuke actually uses Genjtusu:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v49/c462/5.html

Originally posted by dadudemon

Everyone is susceptible to genjutsu. Just depends on the genjtusu being used and if they know how to counter it.

But the purpose of most genjutsu is to make the target vulnerable to a physical attack. Only a few take out the target rather than being a setup.

C may be able to blind him, but he wouldn't be able to finish the job.

As far as taking advantage of it, we already know that you cannot train your insides to become stronger so any fast gentle fist user that can use genjtsu would be a poor choice against Sandaime Raikage. In fact...any jonin of the main house branch should be a decent match for Sandaime Raikage...they just have to be fast enough to keep up with him.

If gentle fist can piece lightning armor.

Also, we know of no gentle fist users with genjutsu- Hizashi, Hiashi, and Neji all have a 2. Hinata has a 2.5.

We do not know to what extent he can use that ability. He did not use that jutsu at range. We cannot really give him any feats with that.

We know it's a ranged ability and he taught it to Darui.

Even if it's only as strong as Darui's, it's still rather nice range.

I think so...because wasn't B named something else before he became the jinchuriki?

Before becoming A's partner.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And here's when Sasuke actually uses Genjtusu:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v49/c462/5.html

I see no Raiton Shroud around C.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I see no Raiton Shroud around C.

That's not a counter to what I said, though.

You have yet to connect the dots. It is only a baseless and unsupported claim. The anime doesn't even agree with you.

Originally posted by Q99
But the purpose of most genjutsu is to make the target vulnerable to a physical attack. Only a few take out the target rather than being a setup.

C may be able to blind him, but he wouldn't be able to finish the job.

No, not all attacks have to be physical. Unless by physical you mean "affecting the corporeal"?

Originally posted by Q99
If gentle fist can piece lightning armor.

Both Neji and Hinata can project a mid-range attack, now.

However, there is no evidence that the armor does not protect against that attack. There is also no evidence that the attack will get through. That was a baseless assumption on my part. It is not, however, completely baseless, to assume that the attack would not get through the armor...but it is still unsupported to assume it would block it. Which is why you have taken the position that you have?

Originally posted by Q99
Also, we know of no gentle fist users with genjutsu- Hizashi, Hiashi, and Neji all have a 2. Hinata has a 2.5.

I agree, here. But they have large amounts of chakra control. There should be at least one living gentle-fist user that is halfway decent with gentjusu.

Originally posted by Q99
We know it's a ranged ability and he taught it to Darui.

Even if it's only as strong as Darui's, it's still rather nice range.

No, we know that Darui's use of it is ranged. We do not know how the Third Raikage used it.

Look at Sasuke and how he has used Chidori: projected it into really long blades. Genius, imo. However, that's not how Kakashi originally used it.

Originally posted by Q99
Before becoming A's partner.

Touché.

Yea, I'm not seeing where Sasuke tried genjutsu on A either.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, not all attacks have to be physical. Unless by physical you mean "affecting the corporeal"?

I mean "something has to actually finish the job beyond the genjutsu in most cases".

Normally that's physical, though non-physical would do. Still, what non-physical attacks could do the job either? Pain's soul suck, sure. Tayuya's ghosts wouldn't.

Non-physical attacks that can take someone out are really rare.

but it is still unsupported to assume it would block it.

Well, I'll note that Kidōmaru's chakra reinforced armor blocked it.

I agree, here. But they have large amounts of chakra control. There should be at least one living gentle-fist user that is halfway decent with gentjusu.

I can see why they wouldn't. They, after all, have a built-in method that beats a wide number of genjutsu, and their training requires heavy taijutsu focus and developing their chakra control in the very specific way the gentle fist uses.

Doing genjutsu on top of that- which requires chakra control which they have, yes, but in a pretty different usage than gentle fist- may be spreading themselves pretty thin.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's not a counter to what I said, though.

You have yet to connect the dots. It is only a baseless and unsupported claim. The anime doesn't even agree with you.

Good, because what you said wasn't a counter to my statement either.

Yeah, no.
His usage of a hand-seal and direct eye-contact tell me otherwise. But fair enough, it isn't definitive. Neither is the opposite though. And considering A is constantly pouring out massive amounts of chakra to maintain his Raiton Shroud, there's another reason to believe that he'd have a genjutsu defense.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, I'm not seeing where Sasuke tried genjutsu on A either.

I mean "something has to actually finish the job beyond the genjutsu in most cases".

Normally that's physical, though non-physical would do. Still, what non-physical attacks could do the job either? Pain's soul suck, sure. Tayuya's ghosts wouldn't.

Non-physical attacks that can take someone out are really rare.

TBH, I was thinking about anything that did not have to use a bladed weapon or taijutsu.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, I'll note that Kidōmaru's chakra reinforced armor blocked it.

Are you talking about that gold-plating stuff?

That is not the same thing as Raiton armor. And it is not chakra-based. Isn't it actually a material sweated (is that a word?) out of his pores?

Originally posted by Q99
I can see why they wouldn't. They, after all, have a built-in method that beats a wide number of genjutsu, and their training requires heavy taijutsu focus and developing their chakra control in the very specific way the gentle fist uses.

Doing genjutsu on top of that- which requires chakra control which they have, yes, but in a pretty different usage than gentle fist- may be spreading themselves pretty thin.

I disagree with all of the above, of course. They are not strictly assigned to mastering gentle-fist. No where is that stated or implied. And jonin, generally, have two chakra natures mastered...no hyuga would need to do that if they were solely focused on developing gentle-first. It is also not stated that Hyuga are the exception to the general idea that jonin master two-chakra controls...but I could still be wrong about all of that. Maybe hyuga only DO focus on just mastering gentle-fist and extensions of that.

Also, everyone learns the basics of gentjusu when going through the academy. I do not think learning gentjusu spreads one thin, at all. Generally, the more intelligent the character, the better their gentjusu rating. It think Jiraiya is the exception.

New question...do you think 3 is "average" when it comes to those stats?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Good, because what you said wasn't a counter to my statement either.

It was, actually. You are making a claim and it is not there. You have yet to prove your claim. Here's the problem: you can't prove your claim unless you get a direct quote from Kishimoto, at this point. Not even the anime supports what you're saying.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yeah, no.
His usage of a hand-seal and direct eye-contact tell me otherwise. But fair enough, it isn't definitive. Neither is the opposite though. And considering A is constantly pouring out massive amounts of chakra to maintain his Raiton Shroud, there's another reason to believe that he'd have a genjutsu defense.

Again, what you claim is baseless and unsupported. I will go ahead and say what you are claiming is directly contradicted in the manga and anime because Sasuke did not use hand-signs or chakra gathering hand signs to use his Sharingan based genjutsu against Itachi. Therefore, you are wrong.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It was, actually. You are making a claim and it is not there. You have yet to prove your claim. Here's the problem: you can't prove your claim unless you get a direct quote from Kishimoto, at this point. Not even the anime supports what you're saying.

Again, what you claim is baseless and unsupported. I will go ahead and say what you are claiming is directly contradicted in the manga and anime because Sasuke did not use hand-signs or chakra gathering hand signs to use his Sharingan based genjutsu against Itachi. Therefore, you are wrong.

No, it wasn't.
Actually, the anime's subs make my case stronger as it turns a comment that could to a comment that can be taken as a taunt to one that suggests Sasuke is trying to attack A in that scene. So no.

As of Part 2, he does not need Handseals to use Chidori stuff either. Yet he makes use of Handseals anyway once or twice. So no.
And there was still direct, stare-type eye contact.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Are you talking about that gold-plating stuff?

That is not the same thing as Raiton armor. And it is not chakra-based. Isn't it actually a material sweated (is that a word?) out of his pores?

It's a material full of chakra. I got the impression.

I disagree with all of the above, of course. They are not strictly assigned to mastering gentle-fist. No where is that stated or implied. And jonin, generally, have two chakra natures mastered...no hyuga would need to do that if they were solely focused on developing gentle-first. It is also not stated that Hyuga are the exception to the general idea that jonin master two-chakra controls...but I could still be wrong about all of that. Maybe hyuga only DO focus on just mastering gentle-fist and extensions of that.

Clan, from what we've seen, mostly *do* tend to focus on just one thing.

We've yet to see any Hyuga use an elemental technique (they have their pressure-punch thing, but that seems to still be based on gentle fist). I think the 'two element' thing is mostly for the more generalist Jonin not from specific clans (or clans that focus on elements), or rather an element-focused ninja generally needs two to get up to jonin level while some specific clans have techniques that are also strong enough to get someone to jonin level. Nara, Akimichi, Aburame, Hyuga, all of their jonin only use clan techniques.

And it may be that while they're capable, it's just the clan way to focus on their speciality, since clan techniques, being unique to them, are more valuable to the village.

Also, everyone learns the basics of gentjusu when going through the academy. I do not think learning gentjusu spreads one thin, at all. Generally, the more intelligent the character, the better their gentjusu rating. It think Jiraiya is the exception.

Well, even 5-Int Shikamaru is a mere 3 in genjutsu, and Tsunade a 3.5.

It seems to me that if you're merely focusing on having enough for genjutsu defense, 3-to-3.5 is considered adequate. And if you have an anti-genjutsu cheat to begin with, you don't even *need* that.

New question...do you think 3 is "average" when it comes to those stats?

Well, it depends on what level you're talking about. 3 is quite good for a genin, a good genin'll have one or two 3s. 3s are normal for chunins. A 3-average would be a total of 24 points, well into Chunin land.

I'd say 2 is average, 3 is good, 4 is exceptional/specialist territory, and 5 is really incredible.

Originally posted by Q99
And it may be that while they're capable, it's just the clan way to focus on their speciality, since clan techniques, being unique to them, are more valuable to the village.

This is probably where we can meet that the center and agree.

However, I think that any person faced against someone like the Third Raikage would try other techniques that they have been taught...assuming they are fast enough to avoid death from the speedy Raikage.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, even 5-Int Shikamaru is a mere 3 in genjutsu, and Tsunade a 3.5.

But, Shikamaru does not excel at any ninja combat. That's due to his lack of effort. Additionally, a 3 is fairly good for a young person not specializing or having a KG in genjutsu.

Of the Konoha 12 (not 12...nya nya), aren't the ones with most brains the ones with the highest genjutsu ratings?

Sakura

Sasuke

Shikamaru

I believe all 3 of those have intelligence and genjutsu scores higher than the rest.

Originally posted by Q99
It seems to me that if you're merely focusing on having enough for genjutsu defense, 3-to-3.5 is considered adequate. And if you have an anti-genjutsu cheat to begin with, you don't even *need* that.

You mean things like a biju companion to knock you out of the genjutsu?

I would say that anyone with 3 or more can actually use it but their techs will be easier to knock yourself out of by focusing chakra at your feet (is that an anime only thing?). Remember, Jiraiya tried to teach naruto how to break out of genjutsu. In order for Jiraiya to have to do that, Jiraiya would have had to know how to actually use it...and he's a 3.5.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, it depends on what level you're talking about. 3 is quite good for a genin, a good genin'll have one or two 3s. 3s are normal for chunins. A 3-average would be a total of 24 points, well into Chunin land.

Well, a chunin with a score of 24 is a really high score...but that person would not be that great of a ninja. That's because they would not excel at any one area.

A chunin with a 4 in one area and a 2 in another, everything else equal, would result that that ninja being able to beat your perfect 3's ninja, imo.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd say 2 is average, 3 is good, 4 is exceptional/specialist territory, and 5 is really incredible.

Well, if by average, you mean out of all the genin, chunin, and jonin, you're probably right.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No, it wasn't.

"It was, actually. You are making a claim and it is not there. You have yet to prove your claim. Here's the problem: you can't prove your claim unless you get a direct quote from Kishimoto, at this point. Not even the anime supports what you're saying."

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Actually, the anime's subs make my case stronger as it turns a comment that could to a comment that can be taken as a taunt to one that suggests Sasuke is trying to attack A in that scene. So no.

Actually, they don't. The anime makes your case even weaker as Sasuke does not "flex" his genjutsu skills till later and there is direct attention drawn to this fact by sounds and animation.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
As of Part 2, he does not need Handseals to use Chidori stuff either. Yet he makes use of Handseals anyway once or twice. So no.

This is non sequitur to the point I just made. My point completely and utterly destroys any hope you had of making your case. It is definitely final: Sasuke was not trying to use genjutsu on A on the page you showed.

You have yet to prove your claim. You can't prove your claim unless you get a direct quote from Kishimoto, at this point.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
And there was still direct, stare-type eye contact.

And it was Sasuke's/Kishimoto's fault for not trying to use sharingan-based genjutsu on Raikage at that point in time.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is probably where we can meet that the center and agree.

However, I think that any person faced against someone like the Third Raikage would try other techniques that they have been taught...assuming they are fast enough to avoid death from the speedy Raikage.

My question is, what attacks could actually take him out even if given a clear shot?

Not many.

But, Shikamaru does not excel at any ninja combat. That's due to his lack of effort. Additionally, a 3 is fairly good for a young person not specializing or having a KG in genjutsu.

He applies harder once he's a chunin.

And he's still only 3 post-timeskip.

Of the Konoha 12 (not 12...nya nya), aren't the ones with most brains the ones with the highest genjutsu ratings?

I believe all 3 of those have intelligence and genjutsu scores higher than the rest.

Ino has the same as Shikamaru (3), and she's only an Int 3.

Shino's an Int 4 and a genjutsu 2.

Temari's an Int 4 and a genjutsu 1.5! (As a jonin) Kidomaru's the same.

Tayuy'as a Genjutsu 5, but a mere 3.5 brains.

While high int and gen is fairly common, there's plenty of exceptions where there's a large difference between the two stats. I think it's a matter of 'you can't be too dumb and use genjutsu, and more int definitely helps with such a tricky skill, but plenty of smart people are bad at it, and you can be merely moderately smart and have powerful genjutsu.

You mean things like a biju companion to knock you out of the genjutsu?

Yes, or eyes that can see through illusions.

I would say that anyone with 3 or more can actually use it

In terms of offensive genjutsu, all the ones we've seen actually use it have been 4 or more.

Though Kin and the doppleganger-using rain nin are unstated, and I'd be surprised if they're more than 3.5 (3.5 being the highest stat any of Team Dosu had), and probably 3.

I think a 3 represents either you have some minor-but-useful genjutsu, or you're really good at genjutsu breaking.

Genjutsu seems to require higher stats to get good than ninjutsu does.

but their techs will be easier to knock yourself out of by focusing chakra at your feet (is that an anime only thing?). Remember, Jiraiya tried to teach naruto how to break out of genjutsu. In order for Jiraiya to have to do that, Jiraiya would have had to know how to actually use it...and he's a 3.5.

Focusing on your feat is tree climbing/water walking. Genjutsu-breaking is seizing control of your chakra system.

Genjutsu breaking is definitely something in the lower numbers, I think Naruto uses it at 2, but I assume higher numbers mean you're better at it.

Well, a chunin with a score of 24 is a really high score...but that person would not be that great of a ninja. That's because they would not excel at any one area.

That's pretty much Iruka 🙂

Though I'll mention Sai is mostly 3s (with two 3.5s and two 4s) and he's supposed to be the best ninja in his age group. So while I generally agree, there are some exceptions.

A chunin with a 4 in one area and a 2 in another, everything else equal, would result that that ninja being able to beat your perfect 3's ninja, imo.

This is pretty much how the Sound Four are set up, they're all really crappy at something and great at something else.

Nowhere is Sasuke using a Genjutsu on A implied.