Originally posted by Q99
My question is, what attacks could actually take him out even if given a clear shot?Not many.
A child could kill him. As I pointed out, his body may be like steel (yes, homo), but his other organs will not be. His eyes would be the easiest way to kill him, imo. One kunai through the eye socket should do the trick.
I think even a pre-genin would be smart enough to figure that out.
Originally posted by Q99
He applies harder once he's a chunin.And he's still only 3 post-timeskip.
IMO, he doesn't apply by much, though. Others, post-time skip, made bigger differences. Looking at the konoha 12 (not 11, this time), he is in the lower bottom 3 or 4 as far as improvement goes. Even looking at the sand siblings, they all improved much more, post time skip...minus Temari who seems to have improved by .5 less than Shikamaru.
Originally posted by Q99
Ino has the same as Shikamaru (3), and she's only an Int 3.
That seems normal as Sakura was about the same and they were almost equals.
Originally posted by Q99
Shino's an Int 4 and a genjutsu 2.
But Shino is one of those specialization types that really only focuses on one aspect of ninja-ness: his KG.
Originally posted by Q99
Temari's an Int 4 and a genjutsu 1.5! (As a jonin) Kidomaru's the same.
IMO, Temari made the least amount of improvement and she is a jonin because of her power in ninjutsu. This is why I think Naruto is definitely kage level...but he's definitely got weak areas. How can he be at kage levels but have such weak areas? Simple: his strong areas are so damn strong he bridges the gap. This is why I think Temari is an exception. Generally, there are more that show a correlation to intelligence and genjutsu, than not.
Originally posted by Q99
Tayuy'as a Genjutsu 5, but a mere 3.5 brains.
To me, that seems normal. She's not a "mere 3.5", either. 3.5 is a good level of intelligence at such a young age...in Naruto. She also has a specialty in genjutsu...which is why her genjutsu is off the chart.
Originally posted by Q99
While high int and gen is fairly common, there's plenty of exceptions where there's a large difference between the two stats. I think it's a matter of 'you can't be too dumb and use genjutsu, and more int definitely helps with such a tricky skill, but plenty of smart people are bad at it, and you can be merely moderately smart and have powerful genjutsu.
I think those things you speak of, at the end, are extreme exceptions. I looked and I could not find a 5 in genjutsu that had an intelligence less than 4 other than Tittyuya.
Originally posted by Q99
In terms of offensive genjutsu, all the ones we've seen actually use it have been 4 or more.
No, I think it is at 3 when people start to use it offensively. In fact, I'd say that you can use it at any point, offensively....it just won't be strong enough to "hold" as the other person could easily release it. There were those no-namers in the forest that were probably 3s or less.
Originally posted by Q99
Though Kin and the doppleganger-using rain nin are unstated, and I'd be surprised if they're more than 3.5 (3.5 being the highest stat any of Team Dosu had), and probably 3.
K. I think we agree, now.
Originally posted by Q99
I think a 3 represents either you have some minor-but-useful genjutsu, or you're really good at genjutsu breaking.
Okay, yes...then I think you and I agree.
Originally posted by Q99
Genjutsu seems to require higher stats to get good than ninjutsu does.
I agree. It is useful on weaker opponents. Stronger ones with more intelligence will quickly see through a gentjutsu and be able to break it.
Originally posted by Q99
Focusing on your feat is tree climbing/water walking. Genjutsu-breaking is seizing control of your chakra system.
No, it is also the way Jiraiya taught Naruto how to break out of genjutsu. This is anime only material, however...as it occurred in the anime AFTER Naruto and Jiraiya left the village to train.
Originally posted by Q99
Genjutsu breaking is definitely something in the lower numbers, I think Naruto uses it at 2, but I assume higher numbers mean you're better at it.
Remember, Naruto could not break out of Itachi's genjutsu even though he knew he was in one and was trying...so it requires higher skill, imo, to break out of high-level genjutsu.
Originally posted by Q99
That's pretty much Iruka 🙂Though I'll mention Sai is mostly 3s (with two 3.5s and two 4s) and he's supposed to be the best ninja in his age group. So while I generally agree, there are some exceptions.
Nah, not really. Iruka is all over the place with his stats: 4.5 in intelligence and 2.5 in strength.
But, yes, Sai does make your case as his variance is a max of 1 between his lowest and highest scores. However, he very well may have the highest overall number from the konoha 11. Lemme check.
Yup, Sai has the highest overall rating out of the konoha 11. Only Sasuke has a higher overall score.
Originally posted by Q99
This is pretty much how the Sound Four are set up, they're all really crappy at something and great at something else.
Indeed.
I particularly like his desciption of Sasuke as an arrogant cvnt whose made it his mission to ruin everything good about the series..
Originally posted by dadudemon
Everyone is susceptible to genjutsu. Just depends on the genjtusu being used and if they know how to counter it.As far as taking advantage of it, we already know that you cannot train your insides to become stronger so any fast gentle fist user that can use genjtsu would be a poor choice against Sandaime Raikage. In fact...any jonin of the main house branch should be a decent match for Sandaime Raikage...they just have to be fast enough to keep up with him.
Also, someone can easily kill him via his eyeballs...even when he is all armored up.
We do not know to what extent he can use that ability. He did not use that jutsu at range. We cannot really give him any feats with that.
I think so...because wasn't B named something else before he became the jinchuriki?
Couldn't the third just use the same tact as Gai said to use? You know, look at their feet. He's more than capable of reacting to that in time.
What gentle fist user is known to have the third's speed? No one I can think of.
What Genjutsu user has a strong enough attack to hurt the third? Naruto couldn't even damage him with his rasengan. Chidori would fair no better.
I think the third rating is justified.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, they don't. The anime makes your case even weaker as Sasuke does not "flex" his genjutsu skills till later and there is direct attention drawn to this fact by sounds and animation.
Point. I realized that this was what you were referring to after re-watching the ep last night.
Anyway, yeah, I am wrong. My friend also made the point that Sasuke may have been using the hand-seal to try and distract A & C from Juugo's attack. Makes sense IMO.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nailed it again. 👆I particularly like his desciption of Sasuke as an arrogant cvnt whose made it his mission to ruin everything good about the series..
Eh...not really.
His main complaints about Sasuke was apparently he killed off all the characters he found interesting...which is a rather shallow complaint in my honest opinion. Hell, I don't even understand the complaint with the Itachi thing. He knew it was gonna happen so I guess he was just disappointed with the fight.
And really, I find it hard to drop the quality of a show just because you don't like a main character. I mean, I didn't like Aang or Katara very much but objectively it's still a great freaking show and people do like them. :T
I think you are unique in that regard. In most cases if you hate a main character then it drops the quality simply by virtue that you're spending so much time focusing on a character you don't like. And your analogy isn't accurate because while you may not like Aang or Katara I doubt you actually hated them like he did Sasuke.
In this case I agree with him as the quality of Naruto did drop when Part-2 Sasuke began to steal the spotlight.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think you are unique in that regard. In most cases if you hate a main character then it drops the quality simply by virtue that you're spending so much time focusing on a character you don't like.In this case I agree with him as the quality of Naruto did drop when Part-2 Sasuke began to steal the spotlight.
Ditto.
I largely agreed with that dude's review, as well.
However, the things he found negative, I did not find as bad. It is more like...he rates those bad things as almost series breaking. I rate them as waning writing.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think you are unique in that regard. In most cases if you hate a main character then it drops the quality simply by virtue that you're spending so much time focusing on a character you don't like. And your analogy isn't accurate because while you may not like Aang or Katara I doubt you actually hated them like he did Sasuke.In this case I agree with him as the quality of Naruto did drop when Part-2 Sasuke began to steal the spotlight.
IDK....I hate Sasuke with a passion, however, I like the current Naruto just as much because he still doesn't take away from the development of some of the other characters. Naruto's development is just as good on the positive as Sasuke's development is negatively. Plus, Sasuke is still a top 5 character in many polls as far as I know
Originally posted by dadudemon
Ditto.I largely agreed with that dude's review, as well.
However, the things he found negative, I did not find as bad. It is more like...he rates those bad things as almost series breaking. I rate them as waning writing.
Agreed, I wouldn't say that Naruto has ever 'jumped the shark' like he did.
True that isn't the best analogy. A better analogy would be Dark Knight. Hate Batman, loved the movie.
I disagree. Regardless of who was in the spotlight at the time of the arc, it doesn't change the fact that the arc had some of the most significant events of the entire series. The deaths of Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Itachi, and even Deidara was given some weight as it was something that hurt Akatsuki. The reveal of the Tobi being the leader, the resealing of the Toad scroll, the reveal about Itachi being good and Konoha's darkest hour, and reveal of Pain, the most anticipated Naruto character ever, and the mention of Naruto's parents for the first time in the series proper. I imagine that even if I hated Sasuke, I wouldn't be able to deny that these changes were significant from a narrative perspective and that each focused on the key character that was related to the change. Naruto just happened to have his stuff pushed into the Invasion arc, which is more fitting as that is the more Naruto centered arc. Sasuke was in that one in a way but that was more for Bee than Sasuke.
As it stands, the Pain arc was my least favorite post time skip due to lolending. Next to that would honestly be the Hidan and Kakuzu arc. Shikamaru is a character I actually probably like more than Sasuke and Naruto but there is no denying that he is a relative nobody in the grand scheme of things plot wise. That and the changes in the arc were less significant.
Proportionality dear boy.
Yet focusing on a character, who for all intents and purposes is the second main character suddenly makes the storytelling bad? So why does following Shikamaru for a while seem like a good thing? He is a far less important character. Jiraiya also got the attention during that year and a half, as did Akatsuki as a whole. Even if you dislike the Sasuke part, you have two interesting other things going on that are actually far more interesting than anything Naruto could be doing at the moment.
When a writer of an ongoing series gets to the point where it's time for a bunch of changes to occur, they need to focus on the characters that are most important to the change. The reveal of Pain? Since Jiraiya is involved in the guys backstory, Jiraiya needs to be there. The reveal of Madara? Madara is interested in Sasuke, not Naruto, so he would obviously have more to do with Sasuke. The fight with Itachi? It's been Sasuke's goal to defeat the guy so he should definitely be the focus. The only real way I could see Kishimoto getting around that fact without giving away the spotlight is to give Naruto something to do in a filler or something. Or have it go on while Naruto is doing his training but then there is no one for Naruto to kill with the RS.
Originally posted by dadudemon
A child could kill him. As I pointed out, his body may be like steel (yes, homo), but his other organs will not be. His eyes would be the easiest way to kill him, imo. One kunai through the eye socket should do the trick.I think even a pre-genin would be smart enough to figure that out.
IMO, Temari made the least amount of improvement and she is a jonin because of her power in ninjutsu. This is why I think Naruto is definitely kage level...but he's definitely got weak areas. How can he be at kage levels but have such weak areas? Simple: his strong areas are so damn strong he bridges the gap. This is why I think Temari is an exception. Generally, there are more that show a correlation to intelligence and genjutsu, than not.
I agree. It is useful on weaker opponents. Stronger ones with more intelligence will quickly see through a gentjutsu and be able to break it.
Remember, Naruto could not break out of Itachi's genjutsu even though he knew he was in one and was trying...so it requires higher skill, imo, to break out of high-level genjutsu.
on your first point, have you found it stated somewhere that his eyes are vulnerable? If not then this point is moot. It's as you said, if this was the case, then even a genin would be able to figure it out and yet it has not happened. The cloak surrounds his entire body so i would think every exterior orifice is protected. he tanked several attacks without taking any damage. (since he didn't even bother to block, some of it must have been directed to his eyes.)
What is naruto currently weak at besides Genjutsu? And even that now is null since he can probably pull off the frog genjutsu when they are with him. not to mention Kurama will bail him out of any genjutsu he is trapped in at this point. everything else he is pretty solid in these days. That's why he is kage level. lol
At that point, Naruto was still horrible at genjutsu and it was stated as such. there is no way the third is any where near as bad at breaking genjutsu as Naruto was.
sasori is a bawse
he wanted edo tensei, which makes total sense for his type of combat, but before he got it he it looks like he was already the creator/practitioner of his own version: human puppetry.
now i was thinking about this a minute, and in many ways sasori's "version" is just a little less favorable than edo tensei (w/ sasori's puppet body):
- no chance of mutiny or any issues like the itachi debacle going on now. kabuto may lose his life cause of that.
- the amount puppets in play were almost double the amount of edo's on the field.
- the human puppets retain the chackra and kekkai genkei of the deceased just like edo tensei, and the body can be improved upon with armour, traps, and sasori's special poison.
etc
the only issue sasori has is that his puppets for the most part were pretty low level considering he had to collect the corpses himself, whereas edo tensei allows one to easily gather troops with less time constraints such as just taking a blood or tissue sample and procuring a live sacrifice.
i think sasori's aim was to create more kage level troops since killing them himself would be too risky in order to make them into puppets. with edo tensei he could do some grave robbing and then he'd get what he wanted.
if he had the 3rd kazakage and say...2nd tsuchikage on the field at once using human puppetry, very few characters could beat him.
So I figured I would watch the Rock Lee anime since it's been out a while. I've only seen one episode so far and there is one thing in particular worth noting: Naruto is very much like a member of the main cast if one believe the ending credits. Maybe that was just the first episode but it's odd. Not that I mind Naruto of course.
Originally posted by socool8520
on your first point, have you found it stated somewhere that his eyes are vulnerable?
Internal organs, which would include your eyeballs, cannot be strengthened, according to Guy.
Originally posted by socool8520
It's as you said, if this was the case, then even a genin would be able to figure it out and yet it has not happened.
You're forgetting that Kage fighters have, at the least I have seen, a 3.5 in genjutsu. Unless you have some really powerful genjutsu, you will not be able to trap a Kage in one. A genin, unless they are just absurdly powerful in genjutsu (like Tayuya), will have no hope of stunning the Sandaime Raikage long enough to stab him through the eye with a kunai.
Originally posted by socool8520
The cloak surrounds his entire body so i would think every exterior orifice is protected. he tanked several attacks without taking any damage. (since he didn't even bother to block, some of it must have been directed to his eyes.)
A cloak that is an active defense, not passive. Meaning, it isn't "always on".
Originally posted by socool8520
What is naruto currently weak at besides Genjutsu?
Hand seals, most likely. Seems almost universal that Kages have a 4 or better in hand seals. I believe Gaara has the lowest in Hand Seals (4) out of the rated Kages we know of.
Originally posted by socool8520
And even that now is null since he can probably pull off the frog genjutsu when they are with him.
No, Naruto probably cannot. That was a Ma and Pa tech. Something Jiraiya could use only if he summoned them and bonded to them.
Originally posted by socool8520
not to mention Kurama will bail him out of any genjutsu he is trapped in at this point. everything else he is pretty solid in these days. That's why he is kage level. lol
I only partially agree that Kurama would do so. It's possible...
In this case, if we assume that Kurama would bump Naruto out of genjutsus, we could bump Naruto up to a 4 (or whatever B is currently ranked). It looks like having a strong partner like a tailed beast can bump you out of even Tsukuyomi.
However, I think anything over a 3, as Q99 and I discussed, would require you to be able to use genjutsu offensively. So we may be able to only justify a bump up to 3, for Naruto.
Originally posted by socool8520
At that point, Naruto was still horrible at genjutsu and it was stated as such. there is no way the third is any where near as bad at breaking genjutsu as Naruto was.
I do not know what you're talking about, here. Why are you talking about Sandaime (I assume Hokage)?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Internal organs, which would include your eyeballs, cannot be strengthened, according to Guy.You're forgetting that Kage fighters have, at the least I have seen, a 3.5 in genjutsu. Unless you have some really powerful genjutsu, you will not be able to trap a Kage in one. A genin, unless they are just absurdly powerful in genjutsu (like Tayuya), will have no hope of stunning the Sandaime Raikage long enough to stab him through the eye with a kunai.
A cloak that is an active defense, not passive. Meaning, it isn't "always on".
Hand seals, most likely. Seems almost universal that Kages have a 4 or better in hand seals. I believe Gaara has the lowest in Hand Seals (4) out of the rated Kages we know of.
No, Naruto probably cannot. That was a Ma and Pa tech. Something Jiraiya could use only if he summoned them and bonded to them.
I only partially agree that Kurama would do so. It's possible...
In this case, if we assume that Kurama would bump Naruto out of genjutsus, we could bump Naruto up to a 4 (or whatever B is currently ranked). It looks like having a strong partner like a tailed beast can bump you out of even Tsukuyomi.
However, I think anything over a 3, as Q99 and I discussed, would require you to be able to use genjutsu offensively. So we may be able to only justify a bump up to 3, for Naruto.
he doesn't have to strengthen his eyes, he has the lightning armor. I just don't see anyone trapping him in a genjutstu for any length of time to try and stab him.
Why wouldn't Kurama bump Naruto out of a genjutsu? They are pretty much bff's now. Plus, if he has the forgs with him, they can bail him out of a genjutsu.
Who cares about hand seals when you don't use any ninjutsu that really require any besides clone jutsu which is immediate.
Ma and Pa were going to use the frog genjutsu on Pain with naruto until pain stabbed Pa. They don't have to bond, and summoning frogs is not out of Naruto's character.
Originally posted by socool8520
he doesn't have to strengthen his eyes, he has the lightning armor. I just don't see anyone trapping him in a genjutstu for any length of time to try and stab him.
A cloak that is an active defense, not passive. Meaning, it isn't "always on".
Originally posted by socool8520
Why wouldn't Kurama bump Naruto out of a genjutsu? They are pretty much bff's now. Plus, if he has the forgs with him, they can bail him out of a genjutsu.
No, Naruto does not have the Frogs with him. Also, there is no guarantee that Kurama and Naruto are BFFs.
Originally posted by socool8520
Who cares about hand seals when you don't use any ninjutsu that really require any besides clone jutsu which is immediate.
I know you may not care about hand seals but, apparantly, the Sandaime Hokage, the Yondaime Hokage, and the Godaime Hokage seemed to care about hand seals quite a bit with Minato showing us what S-Class levels of hand seals can be like with S-Class ninjutsu: broken.
Originally posted by socool8520
Ma and Pa were going to use the frog genjutsu on Pain with naruto until pain stabbed Pa. They don't have to bond, and summoning frogs is not out of Naruto's character.
They are independent entities, at that point. They are fighting as their own fighters, not as part of a single unit like they do with Jiraiya. Additionally, Naruto has not summoned Ma and Pa for a while. Naruto seems to have progressed/advanced beyond the need to use them.
Also, Naruto seems to have amped the speed at which he can enter into Sage Mode.