Originally posted by socool8520
this makes sense. However, even if the tag is placed on susan'o at least he could make that disappear, even, if only temporarily. it only takes an instant for minato to stab Madara in the face with a kunai or rasengan his guts out. Then he just seals him. He is capable of creating seals in the air as well isn't he or was that just the anime when he teleported the tailed beast ball from kurama. He could wait for a long range attack from madara and teleport it back at him at high velocity. He has way to many ways of getting around susan'o for this to be too challenging for him.
He teleported that biju ball, IIRC. It took a lot out of him. Apparently, biju balls require a shit ton of chakra to teleport...unlike the biju itself. Not sure why. Maybe because it is volatile?
Thus far, the best fight, as far as how ****in' cool it was, was Minato vs. Tobi. The whole thing from start to finish. He was just absurdly awesome and potent as a ninja. He made a super squad of ninjas look like pansies: Kakashi, Shino, Kiba, Naruto, Guy, Sakura, Sai, Yamato, and Hinata. Now someone might point out that Tobi wasn't trying to fight that group...but Minato did what that entire group could not do while also fighting off Kurama. Minato also made Tobi look like a punk b*tch...which is not something anyone has done yet.
Minato is also the only one to have survived an encounter with both A and B at the same time...absurd if you consider that A and B both are excellent 1v1 fighters...much less probably the most potent 2v1 fighters in the series.
Minato also accomplished in mere moments, without prep, what Konan did with the most prep seen to date. IMO, this is the difference between a super S class and a high level A class to a low level S class (I believe Konan is an A+...to very very low S- ).
But how will Minato get around Susano'o? IMO, he gets around it be wearing down Madara. He could also probably launch Madara with a rasengan because Minato's rasengan's mixed with his strength indicate, for me, that Minato is quite strong (he created a massive crater all around himself with Tobi's body...something Naruto and Jiraiya have never done with a regular rasengan...tells me Minato is boasting some high-level strength). So I see a war of attrition against Madara. I think Minato can take on current ET Madara without breaking a sweat...but it would be challenging in that he can't just steam-roll Madara.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I considered it and recognized that what you are saying is a completely different meaning than what Minato presented.
He wasn't being highly technical or anything, though. I don't think an off-hand comment like that is enough to conclude, "He definitely meant shutting down the ability for good."
I'll also note that he didn't shut down any of the other sharingan powers or anything.
Tobi said Minato severed his contract with kyuubi, not removed his ability, and I'm inclined to believe that's what really happened.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Thus far, the best fight, as far as how ****in' cool it was, was Minato vs. Tobi. The whole thing from start to finish. He was just absurdly awesome and potent as a ninja. He made a super squad of ninjas look like pansies: Kakashi, Shino, Kiba, Naruto, Guy, Sakura, Sai, Yamato, and Hinata. Now someone might point out that Tobi wasn't trying to fight that group...but Minato did what that entire group could not do while also fighting off Kurama. Minato also made Tobi look like a punk b*tch...which is not something anyone has done yet.
Cleary you did not grasp the awesomeness that was Naruto vs Pein. 😄
Besides Kabuto, who is far less perfect and blonde than Minato, made Tobi look like a punk b*tch w/o even having to fight him.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Minato also accomplished in mere moments, without prep, what Konan did with the most prep seen to date. IMO, this is the difference between a super S class and a high level A class to a low level S class (I believe Konan is an A+...to very very low S- ).
If Hidan gets to be S- then so does Konan if no a full-fleged S. Besides she did make him use Izanagi; something Minato didn't do.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But how will Minato get around Susano'o? IMO, he gets around it be wearing down Madara. He could also probably launch Madara with a rasengan because Minato's rasengan's mixed with his strength indicate, for me, that Minato is quite strong (he created a massive crater all around himself with Tobi's body...something Naruto and Jiraiya have never done with a regular rasengan...tells me Minato is boasting some high-level strength). So I see a war of attrition against Madara. I think Minato can take on current ET Madara without breaking a sweat...but it would be challenging in that he can't just steam-roll Madara.
Couldn't Current Madara just use Rinnegan techs to tank Minato's whole arseal of offensive jutsu? Sure the uber base Rasengan and FTG 2 are extremely hax but Madara has Preta and Asura to compensate...I think. Then there's the Mokuton clone issue in which he could make Minato fight as many Madaras as he wanted.
Minato also accomplished in mere moments, without prep, what Konan did with the most prep seen to date. IMO, this is the difference between a super S class and a high level A class to a low level S class (I believe Konan is an A+...to very very low S- ).
Konan managed to blow off Tobi's arm without prep, just her normal arsenal. The prep attack came later.
She's also got that whole "transform into something and thus be really hard to hurt" thing like Suigetsu, and a ton of chakra to be able to control all those bombs. Even if they had been non-prep paper instead of preparing all those bombs, she still would've been able to kill many many foes with that much stuff.
Powerful clones, flight, mobility, area attacks, Konan has a lot.
Originally posted by Q99
Konan managed to blow off Tobi's arm without prep, just her normal arsenal. The prep attack came later.
Your interpretation is oddly off from what actually took place in the story.
Firstly:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/5.html
Tobi's aim was to capture Konan alive and force her to reveal Nagato's resting place.
Secondly, it was prep that caused Tobi's arm to be blown off...she had a multifaceted plan against Tobi. Even Tobi recognized that she had a plan:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/6.html
Thirdly, her plan was to suicide bomb Tobi:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/7.html
Lastly, and this is the most important thing of all: Tobi lost his arm because he saved Konan.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/14.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/15.html
So here would be the correct statement, using your words:
"Konan managed to blow off Tobi's arm with a suicide bomb attempt, with prep, because Tobi saved himself and Konan beacuse Tobi needed her alive to locate Nagato. When her first plan failed, she moved on to her final prep attack which also failed.
In other words, this is the difference between Minato and Konan: Konan, with prep, didn't even come close to the level of success that Minato experienced against Tobi. And Konan was intimately familiar with her opponent so much so that she had devised two fail-safe ways to destroy him...if only Tobi wasn't so quick and clever.
Originally posted by Q99
She's also got that whole "transform into something and thus be really hard to hurt" thing like Suigetsu, and a ton of chakra to be able to control all those bombs. Even if they had been non-prep paper instead of preparing all those bombs, she still would've been able to kill many many foes with that much stuff.
That's certainly a useful tech, for sure. However, it does not come close to the level of "durability" that Suigetsu's body affords him. Case-in-point: Suigetsu would not have died from the back stab.
Lastly, she would have failed, even with prep, to even harm Minato with that same prep attack. Minato could teleport to any one of his Kunai's that he has already in place.
Originally posted by Q99
Powerful clones, flight, mobility, area attacks, Konan has a lot.
Konan does not have match. She seems linear.
Her clones are not that powerful...they are made of paper. lol
Her flight seems rather slow and bulky: I would choose Gaara's flight over hers. Her area attacks are small to mid-range. Konan is at best, still A-Class by feats. When stacked up against other S classes, she does not seem like much.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Cleary you did not grasp the awesomeness that was Naruto vs Pein. 😄
I did enjoy that fight. It was quite awesome. So was Naruto vs. Sasuke.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Besides Kabuto, who is far less perfect and blonde than Minato, made Tobi look like a punk b*tch w/o even having to fight him.
That has not happened, yet.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
If Hidan gets to be S- then so does Konan if no a full-fleged S. Besides she did make him use Izanagi; something Minato didn't do.
Tobi also had the 9-tails as part of his fight...literally the most powerful weapon thus far (the 10-tails would be the only thing more powerful). Tobi almost died against Minato and he barely escaped with his life.
Hidan is/was fast enough to push a decent A level character so he is barely deserving of an S-, imo. However, I could settle for an A+ or even an A for Hidan and not complain.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Couldn't Current Madara just use Rinnegan techs to tank Minato's whole arseal of offensive jutsu? Sure the uber base Rasengan and FTG 2 are extremely hax but Madara has Preta and Asura to compensate...I think. Then there's the Mokuton clone issue in which he could make Minato fight as many Madaras as he wanted.
No, seals are not ninjutsu: they are seals. So he could not absorb them. And the clones would be a cinch for someone of Minato's caliber.
Originally posted by Q99
He wasn't being highly technical or anything, though. I don't think an off-hand comment like that is enough to conclude, "He definitely meant shutting down the ability for good."
Yeah, he was. It makes no sense to say, "There, I have removed your ability to link with the 9-tails, but only just until you re-establish it."
That makes no sense and does not mesh up with what he said. Minato never makes casual statements during combat (like...lol!).
Minato definitely shut down that particular aspect of Tobi's ability to control the 9-tails. However, there are other ways he could take control of Kurama, like I indicated.
Originally posted by Q99
I'll also note that he didn't shut down any of the other sharingan powers or anything.
Because he sealed the Sharingan's ability to control Kurama, that's why. He didn't say he shut down the precog ability. He didn't say he shut down the genjutsu ability. He didn't say he shut down the phase ability. He said he shut down Tobi's ability to control Kurama. That's quite specific. If Minato were to try and seal those other abilities, it would seem that a different seal would have to be used for each. Disconnecting a link seems to be easier because the other abilities are internal abilities...whereas making a susano'o and/or controlling Kurama are externally manifested abilities. (Genjutsu is in the gray area of these two areas).
Originally posted by Q99
Tobi said Minato severed his contract with kyuubi, not removed his ability, and I'm inclined to believe that's what really happened.
No, he did not say he severed his contract with Kurama. Here, read what was stated:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c503/5.html
Even if it was a contract (which doesn't make sense since the control is executed by a sharingan, not a summoning contract), then why did he have to use his sharingan to control Kurama? Why did Madara try and do the same thing? Why did Tobi NOT have to use blood and a scroll when summoning Kurama? Everything about it seems like it is not a contract.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Cleary you did not grasp the awesomeness that was Naruto vs Pein. 😄Besides Kabuto, who is far less perfect and blonde than Minato, made Tobi look like a punk b*tch w/o even having to fight him.
If Hidan gets to be S- then so does Konan if no a full-fleged S. Besides she did make him use Izanagi; something Minato didn't do.
Couldn't Current Madara just use Rinnegan techs to tank Minato's whole arseal of offensive jutsu? Sure the uber base Rasengan and FTG 2 are extremely hax but Madara has Preta and Asura to compensate...I think. Then there's the Mokuton clone issue in which he could make Minato fight as many Madaras as he wanted.
1st point have to agree. lol
If you mean tricking him cuz he;s a douche, then yeah, he sure showed Tobi. Minato on the other hand actually made him look like a chump from start to finish.
Agreed. Konan is BA
How does rinnegan aid in stopping Minato? he could still destroy the path's and any amount of fake Madaras like he did against that army. A few well placed seals and daggers and that's it. He could probably seal away susan'o even if for a moment. Which is more than enough time for someone of minato's speed and technique to need. that's all it took for to earn Tobi's respect.
Konan does not have match. She seems linear.Her clones are not that powerful...they are made of paper. lol
Her flight seems rather slow and bulky: I would choose Gaara's flight over hers. Her area attacks are small to mid-range. Konan is at best, still A-Class by feats. When stacked up against other S classes, she does not seem like much.
Her attacks were able to surround Tobi. She was able to just sweep around a bunch of ninja and engulf them all. She can fly as swift as her paper moves, which is pretty fast, often shuriken fast. Her paper can block Jiraiya's fireballs. She can divide a lake with paper, which is one of the widest scale jutsu by a non-biju there is. Being paper, the clones are immune to most physical attacks.
I get the impression you haven't actually looked at her stuff recently.
No, he did not say he severed his contract with Kurama. Here, read what was stated:
"Are you trying to break my contact with Kyuubi?"
Contact.
So yea, not the word contract, but there was contact between them at a distance, and it was specifically the contact that Minato was targeting.
why did he have to use his sharingan to control Kurama?
Because he can't initiate control without the sharingan, but there needs to be a link between the two to maintain that.
Minato separated the two, so the sharingan was over in one place, Kyuubi in another, with no remote link between them any more, so how's the sharingan supposed to maintain control without a link?
Why did Madara try and do the same thing? Why did Tobi NOT have to use blood and a scroll when summoning Kurama? Everything about it seems like it is not a contract.
What? He did the totally normal summoning thing here, just like summoning anything else.
How does rinnegan aid in stopping Minato?
Remember that bit where they were charging each other at the end of their fight?
Gravity pulse then.
Or chakra-absorb, nullify the rasengan, grab Minato, and win.
As for the seals... well, chakra-absorb *them* too.
Have the Asura armor on, granting him multiple limbs to fight with.
Heck, with his paths, have them all stand ready to support each other close together. Some of them were fast, and we saw from A and B working together that coordination from fast foes *can* put Minato in danger.
He could probably seal away susan'o even if for a moment.
How would he do that considering he'd have to put the seal on the body itself, i.e. behind the susano'o?
Originally posted by Q99
Her attacks were able to surround Tobi. She was able to just sweep around a bunch of ninja and engulf them all. She can fly as swift as her paper moves, which is pretty fast, often shuriken fast. Her paper can block Jiraiya's fireballs. She can divide a lake with paper, which is one of the widest scale jutsu by a non-biju there is. Being paper, the clones are immune to most physical attacks.
She was able to get the drop on a bunch of noobs who did not know what her powerset. Keep in mind that this is a comparison between Minato, a true S class, and Konan...borderline A+ to S- class.
She can't fly that fast and Jiraiya responded to her paper shuriken, something you find highly useful, at almost point blank range.
Originally posted by Q99
I get the impression you haven't actually looked at her stuff recently.
I get the impression that you wish I had not looked at her "stuff" recently despite the fact that I linked you to "her stuff" because you interpreted "her stuff" incorrectly. But if it makes you feel better that I am unfamiliar with "her stuff", go ahead and believe that. But don't forget, while believing that, that it was I who corrected you on "her stuff", not the other way around.
Originally posted by Q99
"Are you trying to break my contact with Kyuubi?"Contact.
So yea, not the word contract, but there was contact between them at a distance, and it was specifically the contact that Minato was targeting.
And another translation says something entirely differently. See, this is what happens when you try to play word games on a point that has long been settled. You're quite set in your ways despite how obviously wrong you are: there's no amount of evidence that will get you to admit fault, at this point. I mean...I even showed you where "contract" was not what was stated and you didn't even say, "my bad, man. MY BAD". Even I, Mr. Arrogant Pants, am above not admitting fault.
Originally posted by Q99
Because he can't initiate control without the sharingan, but there needs to be a link between the two to maintain that.
Tobi actively controlled it with the sharingan and Minato permanently severed it with a seal. At no point was direct line of sight ever used to establish the link.
Originally posted by Q99
Minato separated the two, so the sharingan was over in one place, Kyuubi in another, with no remote link between them any more, so how's the sharingan supposed to maintain control without a link?
Tobi actively controlled it with the sharingan and Minato permanently severed it with a seal. At no point was direct line of sight ever used to establish the link.
Originally posted by Q99
What? He did the totally normal summoning thing here, just like summoning anything else.
😬
You completely ignored what I said.
Again, address this point:
"Why did Tobi NOT have to use blood and a scroll when summoning Kurama?"
So you don't ignore my post and make an irrelevant point again, Tobi summoned Kurama...but he didn't have a contractual scroll or use blood to summon Kurama. Look at the page you quoted at me. Even in the anime, it does not show that. Tobi summoned Kurama in a unorthodox way...not sure how he did it.
One more time so you don't miss it:
"Why did Madara try and do the same thing? Why did Tobi NOT have to use blood and a scroll when summoning Kurama? Everything about it seems like it is not a contract."
Originally posted by Q99
Remember that bit where they were charging each other at the end of their fight?Gravity pulse then.
Or chakra-absorb, nullify the rasengan, grab Minato, and win.
Gravity pulse is useless and Minato can teleport mid-air.
Absorbing the Rasengan is only going to stop non-physical attacks that are chakra based. Minato clearly uses a Kunai for much of his attacks and unlike Naruto, he won't use a rasengan more than once. Also, we do not know how much Madara knows about his powers, yet. He may not be able to use the pushing and pull tech. That might have been specific to Nagato.
Originally posted by Q99
As for the seals... well, chakra-absorb *them* too.Have the Asura armor on, granting him multiple limbs to fight with.
It absorbs ninjutsu, not fuinjutsu.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v41/c378/6.html
Additionally, the absorption technique Preta Path uses...is....fuinjutsu. It's full English name is "Blocking Technique Absorption Seal".
Originally posted by Q99
Heck, with his paths, have them all stand ready to support each other close together. Some of them were fast, and we saw from A and B working together that coordination from fast foes *can* put Minato in danger.
You cannot see an opponent move if they teleport. the 6 paths have a weakness in that specific area. Coordinated vision works because you can see which direction they come from. Pain and Madara are not as fast as Minato. Madara has been blitzed multiple times in his fight with the kages. Also, Madara does not have the shared vision, which is what this original discussion started from. A clone does not have shared vision with the original: even shadow clones. They have to release the clone in order to get their information.
Originally posted by Q99
How would he do that considering he'd have to put the seal on the body itself, i.e. behind the susano'o?
He can place the seal anywhere on the body of the susano'o. He can put the seal on Madara, as well. Keep in mind that this is only one way to approach Madara.
Ugh, you sometimes get stuck on these specific interpretations of stuff (here and in other threads. Like insisting that Ultear's power was far greater than she ever showed, she just had constant CIS, rather than her power... being what was shown, or here, that Minato can just shut down whatever ability, rather than severing a link like was indicated) and don't listen to other ways of looking at it.
I like you well enough when you're not doing so, but it's still pretty annoying when you get stuck.
Secondly, it was prep that caused Tobi's arm to be blown off...she had a multifaceted plan against Tobi. Even Tobi recognized that she had a plan:
That wasn't one that required prep though. She just flew in and did it.
By 'prep,' I don't mean "she happened to think of it ahead of time but could do it without anything other than what she always carries," I mean, "it required extra preparation of the abilities beforehand."
Lastly, and this is the most important thing of all: Tobi lost his arm because he saved Konan.
Uh, yea, because the move he did to save himself got rid of the explosion.
If he hadn't 'saved her,' he'd be dead.
"Konan managed to blow off Tobi's arm with a suicide bomb attempt, with prep, because Tobi saved himself and Konan beacuse Tobi needed her alive to locate Nagato. When her first plan failed, she moved on to her final prep attack which also failed.
Konan managed to blow off Tobi's arm with an attempted suicided bomb that didn't require prep.
They survived because Tobi was able to warp it away, saving them both.
Then, she used an attack that required significant prep, but was also one of the biggest used by any non-jinchuuriki, and failed to kill him but only due to him permanently using a sharingan for izanagi, pushing him further than Minato did.
Keep in mind that this is a comparison between Minato, a true S class, and Konan...borderline A+ to S- class.
Solidly S 🙂
And Minato's an S+.
She can't fly that fast and Jiraiya responded to her paper shuriken, something you find highly useful, at almost point blank range.
She responded to his fire jutsu at near point-blank. He attacked first, remember.
Then when she attacked with her paper, it was from the other side of the room.
Her reaction feat was the more impressive of the two there.
I get the impression that you wish I had not looked at her "stuff" recently despite the fact that I linked you to "her stuff" because you interpreted "her stuff" incorrectly. But if it makes you feel better that I am unfamiliar with "her stuff", go ahead and believe that. But don't forget, while believing that, that it was I who corrected you on "her stuff", not the other way around.
Actually, I am correcting you on her stuff 🙂
Most of your arguments are based on small misrememberings (who attacked whom point-blank, that only her paper chasm was stated to involve prep).
And another translation says something entirely differently.
Well then what does it say?
Just saying another translation says something different doesn't say much.
Gravity pulse is useless and Minato can teleport mid-air.
Gravity pulse isn't useless, it can be done in an instant. It could be used right before Tobi was about to grab him, i.e. before Minato teleported, to hit him.
Minato clearly uses a Kunai for much of his attacks and unlike Naruto, he won't use a rasengan more than once.
Yea, but melee with Tobi is tricky, Tobi almost got him once that way, and with gravity pulse Tobi doesn't have to grab him to hit him in return. Simply being near him is enough to send him flying.
It absorbs ninjutsu, not fuinjutsu.
It absorbs chakra- remember when he used it to drain Naruto directly.
You cannot see an opponent move if they teleport. the 6 paths have a weakness in that specific area. Coordinated vision works because you can see which direction they come from.
And Bee was able to be ready for him when he did teleport and get his blade into a mutual kill position.
His teleportation isn't flat-out unstoppable, it's actually been countered in the series.
He can place the seal anywhere on the body of the susano'o. He can put the seal on Madara, as well. Keep in mind that this is only one way to approach Madara.
Yea, he can put a seal on Madara, but on the outside he can hardly put it on Madara himself to shut it down.
Originally posted by Q99
Ugh, you sometimes get stuck on these specific interpretations of stuff (here and in other threads. Like insisting that Ultear's power was far greater than she ever showed, she just had constant CIS, rather than her power... being what was shown, or here, that Minato can just shut down whatever ability, rather than severing a link like was indicated) and don't listen to other ways of looking at it.
You do realize that this is a two-way street, right? Like...when you get stuck defending a specific perspective and will not budge despite evidence to the contrary.
Originally posted by Q99
I like you well enough when you're not doing so, but it's still pretty annoying when you get stuck.
I am not annoyed with you. hug2
Originally posted by Q99
That wasn't one that required prep though. She just flew in and did it.By 'prep,' I don't mean "she happened to think of it ahead of time but could do it without anything other than what she always carries," I mean, "it required extra preparation of the abilities beforehand."
Originally posted by dadudemon
...Secondly, it was prep that caused Tobi's arm to be blown off...she had a multifaceted plan against Tobi. Even Tobi recognized that she had a plan:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/6.html
Thirdly, her plan was to suicide bomb Tobi:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/7.html
...
Originally posted by Q99
Uh, yea, because the move he did to save himself got rid of the explosion.If he hadn't 'saved her,' he'd be dead.
Konan managed to blow off Tobi's arm with a suicide bomb attempt, with prep, because Tobi saved himself and Konan because Tobi needed her alive to locate Nagato. Tobi had the option just to save himself but he extended his reach to save her, as well.
Originally posted by Q99
Konan managed to blow off Tobi's arm with an attempted suicided bomb that didn't require prep.They survived because Tobi was able to warp it away, saving them both.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Firstly:http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/5.html
Tobi's aim was to capture Konan alive and force her to reveal Nagato's resting place.
Secondly, it was prep that caused Tobi's arm to be blown off...she had a multifaceted plan against Tobi. Even Tobi recognized that she had a plan:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/6.html
Thirdly, her plan was to suicide bomb Tobi:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/7.html
Lastly, and this is the most important thing of all: Tobi lost his arm because he saved Konan.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/14.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/15.html
So here would be the correct statement, using your words:
"Konan managed to blow off Tobi's arm with a suicide bomb attempt, with prep, because Tobi saved himself and Konan because Tobi needed her alive to locate Nagato. When her first plan failed, she moved on to her final prep attack which also failed.
Originally posted by Q99
Then, she used an attack that required significant prep, but was also one of the biggest used by any non-jinchuuriki, and failed to kill him but only due to him permanently using a sharingan for izanagi, pushing him further than Minato did.
Originally posted by dadudemon
... the difference between Minato and Konan: Konan, with prep, didn't even come close to the level of success that Minato experienced against Tobi. And Konan was intimately familiar with her opponent so much so that she had devised two fail-safe ways to destroy him...if only Tobi wasn't so quick and clever.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Minato also accomplished in mere moments, without prep, what Konan did with the most prep seen to date. IMO, this is the difference between a super S class and a high level A class to a low level S class (I believe Konan is an A+...to very very low S- ).
Originally posted by Q99
Solidly S 🙂And Minato's an S+.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Minato also accomplished in mere moments, without prep, what Konan did with the most prep seen to date. IMO, this is the difference between a super S class and a high level A class to a low level S class (I believe Konan is an A+...to very very low S- ).
Originally posted by dadudemon
Konan is at best, still A-Class by feats.
Originally posted by Q99
She responded to his fire jutsu at near point-blank. He attacked first, remember.Then when she attacked with her paper, it was from the other side of the room.
Her reaction feat was the more impressive of the two there.
lol! No...you have it wrong, again. I hate to say this, but you said it first so I can use it against you... uhuh: you need to brush up on Konan's feats.
What actually happened was...
1. Jiraiya shadow-piggy-backed onto the Rain nin into Konan's hideout/place thingie.
2. She knew what was up and attacked him with her paper, first.
3. He popped up out of the shadow and then attacked with fireballs which seemed pitifully slow compared to how quickly she can move her paper (keep in mind, she seems to be able to throw her paper like a shuriken...which should be pretty fast).
4. Jiraiya is so impressed with the speed, precision, and her insight that he compliments her:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v41/c371/16.html
Also....
Fireballs that do not appear to have a very fast travel time and something that Konan was already prepared for:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v41/c371/15.html
Her paper is clearly faster than his fireballs. That should make sense because paper can be thrown very fast where as a fireball, even using a blowtorch, is literally nebulous and slow moving.
Lastly...
She uses her paper shuriken, which appear to be her fastest attack (do you know how fast you have to throw paper to get it to penetrate concrete/dirt?) Jiraiya then blasts her with some splatter of oil. She had very poor reaction times compared to Jiraiya.
Originally posted by Q99
Actually, I am correcting you on her stuff 🙂Most of your arguments are based on small misrememberings (who attacked whom point-blank, that only her paper chasm was stated to involve prep).
haermm
This whole time...I have been correcting you. Not once have you brought anything to my "remembrance".
Let's recap lest you go too far with outlandish claims:
1. You said "contract' about Minato's statement when it wasn't contract, at all: it was contact. Additionally, another translation doesn't even use the word "contact".
2. You said Jiraiya attacked first with his fireballs when it was Konan that attacked first with her paper.
3. You said Konan took off Tobi's arm without prep when she did not such thing: she tried to suicide bomb Tobi and even Tobi comments directly on her prep in the attack. Tobi lost his arm because he saved both himself and her.
4. You said that the Preta Path of Madara's rinnegan could absorb a seal...when the absorption tech absorbs ninjutsu, not fuijutsu.
Originally posted by Q99
Well then what does it say?Just saying another translation says something different doesn't say much.
"He's no longer your weapon!"
Originally posted by Q99
Gravity pulse isn't useless, it can be done in an instant. It could be used right before Tobi was about to grab him, i.e. before Minato teleported, to hit him.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Gravity pulse is useless...
because...
Originally posted by dadudemon
...Minato can teleport mid-air.
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, but melee with Tobi is tricky,
Oh really?
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c503/4.html
haermm2
Originally posted by Q99
Tobi almost got him once that way, and with gravity pulse Tobi doesn't have to grab him to hit him in return. Simply being near him is enough to send him flying.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Gravity pulse is useless...
because...
Originally posted by dadudemon
...Minato can teleport mid-air.
Originally posted by Q99
It absorbs chakra- remember when he used it to drain Naruto directly.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It absorbs ninjutsu, not fuinjutsu.http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v41/c378/6.html
Additionally, the absorption technique Preta Path uses...is....fuinjutsu. It's full English name is "Blocking Technique Absorption Seal".
Originally posted by Q99
And Bee was able to be ready for him when he did teleport and get his blade into a mutual kill position.His teleportation isn't flat-out unstoppable, it's actually been countered in the series.
Actually, Minato had the option to go through with the kill but he stopped because Minato clearly wanted to end the confrontation. Observe here:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/2.html
At this moment, B is reaching for his sword as his arm is further behind his back than in the next moment when we see it from the other side which shows his hand significantly farther forward:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/3.html
I had this argument with another poster (I do not remember who it was...it was recent) and this is what I was trying to convey to that poster.
Because of Minato's hesitation, B was able to create a stalemate. Minato remarks on how much of a classical Ninja B is by stating:
"Your movments are exactly like that of a shinobi killer." No hesitation in pulling out his sword which I would say he pulled out extremely quickly while Minato paused to tell Raikage what's what.
Minato monologued...which he usually never does. But it is understandable because he was fighting the Raikage and probably wanted to improve relations between the two countries.
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, he can put a seal on Madara, but on the outside he can hardly put it on Madara himself to shut it down.
Originally posted by dadudemon
He can place the seal anywhere on the body of the susano'o.
And we already know my arguments for why and how Minato can touch Susano'o and/or seal up its use.
Originally posted by Q99
Or to put the Konan thing another way:An A+ is not going to push an S+ to near death even with prep, let alone twice.
Your point is invalid:
A "B", with years of prep and insider knowledge of the opponent, will be able to kill and assassinate and S+. Let's not forget what Shika did to Hidan (A "B" against an S- with not anywhere near "years of prep". 🙂 Hidan was far from stupid: he was very experienced as a ninja and was quite potent just as a taijutsu user, alone.
Also, Tobi, in his form against Konan, was not an S+. I think he should be an S. Tobi's biggest advantage, in that form, against anyone, is his ability to become intangible. However, beyond that, he's not much. He had Kurama sealed from his ability to use...so I would say he should be dropped to an S.
Actually, Minato had the option to go through with the kill but he stopped because Minato clearly wanted to end the confrontation. Observe here:http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/2.html
At this moment, B is reaching for his sword as his arm is further behind his back than in the next moment when we see it from the other side which shows his hand significantly farther forward:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/3.html
I had this argument with another poster (I do not remember who it was...it was recent) and this is what I was trying to convey to that poster.
But he already had the sword in his hand pointed backwards- he may have moved his arm a little, but he'd still get stabbed in the gut. Maybe a bit less fatally than when he made the adjustment, but there's no doubt that Killer Bee reacted to him.
And that's just two fighters, one of whom is a pretty young Bee- that is not as dangerous a situation as Tobi with a full six paths and their coordination.
You do realize that this is a two-way street, right? Like...when you get stuck defending a specific perspective and will not budge despite evidence to the contrary.
Yea, I know, and I have occasionally been corrected and out-argued on this, but I like to think that I'm relying on firmer or at least more clear evidence to begin with- some of your stances are based on stuff that either aren't shown, or are only stated with single statements that are pretty loose, either having multiple interpretations or just perhaps hyperbolic, and more to the point, create plot problems if true (for example, if Minato can shut down sharingan powers in general, then he could shut down Tobi's ability to escape space-time wise too. And as you noted with Ultear, if you're right in her power- which contradicts several outright statements- then she's massively and tremendously lowballing in how she fights in every fight, which isn't author intent).
I mean, one of my big rules of thumb is, "If a reading is applied, does it force CIS into existence? And are there multiple readings, some of which that don't create any plot problems? Then it's not the CIS one."
You occasionally assume things that are unshown or you just feel is implied.
Your point is invalid:A "B", with years of prep and insider knowledge of the opponent, will be able to kill and assassinate and S+. Let's not forget what Shika did to Hidan (A "B" against an S- with not anywhere near "years of prep". Hidan was far from stupid: he was very experienced as a ninja and was quite potent just as a taijutsu user, alone.
Except her first almost-kill was just her normal arsenal.
And more to the point, the actual jutsu for the second almost-kill she used was gigantic. Of all of Akatsuki, only Kisame and Pain and Deidara do similar scale. So she's got above-average for S-class chakra too.
She's got some good reaction feats (some slow ones too like getting caught by the hair, granted, but definitely some fast ones as well, and we can't just ignore blocking a surprise-fireball to the face point blank), and way more offense than Suigetsu, who is a rather impressive A+ with similar unkillability. Unlike him she also has powerful clones.
Of the entire S- list, barely any would be able to score wins against her IMO.
Also, importantly, when brought to a vote, I think you are the only person who argued anything less than S. So your interpretation I've only seem come from you, and has several counter-arguments.
Also, Tobi, in his form against Konan, was not an S+. I think he should be an S. Tobi's biggest advantage, in that form, against anyone, is his ability to become intangible. However, beyond that, he's not much. He had Kurama sealed from his ability to use...so I would say he should be dropped to an S.
He also has the powerful fatal genjutsu he used on her in the end, Izanagi which he's more than willing to use, *and* he fought almost evenly with Minato, one of the strongest S+s, almost killing *him* once (the time when he grabbed Minato and warped a bit too slow. If he'd been faster, and he did say he could warp faster, he'd have won). He's very fast and taijutsu skilled, and can kill pretty much anyone with that warp.
I mean, if Tobi in that form isn't S+, then Minato might not be either, and that's just crazy talk.
Minato has had two people almost kill him: Tobi and Young Bee. He's very good, but he's not invincible.
So yeah I'm gonna finish this up right now...
Q99, you're one of the coolest posters I know. You're so odd but funny and you know more about this series than pretty much anyone except perhaps DP and me. You're cool, keep being cool. P.s If I ever become a writer, you have to be my editor.
Dadudemon, you're one of the most impressive trolls ever. ****, I KNOW you troll me and I still fall for it. Everything from your childish act to your freakin sig that makes everyone who sees it hungry works and you are cool guy. P.s I hate you.
There, I <3 you guys. If you want to continue this discussion, please move it to the Naruto thread concerning the strongest characters or something.