The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Q99
But he already had the sword in his hand pointed backwards- he may have moved his arm a little, but he'd still get stabbed in the gut. Maybe a bit less fatally than when he made the adjustment, but there's no doubt that Killer Bee reacted to him.

No, your interpretation is not possible. The sword is too long for your interpretation to be correct. Based on the placement of his hand in the prior panel, it is reaching for his sheathed sword of Minato's nuts. The next panel shows his hand much further forward which clearly hows he discretely pulled out his sheathed sword (or stopped jacking off Minato...you pick) and pointed it at Minato's gut.

Originally posted by Q99
And that's just two fighters, one of whom is a pretty young Bee- that is not as dangerous a situation as Tobi with a full six paths and their coordination.

A had attained Kage-ship by the time this occurred and we know that a hokage in his 20s is consider very young (probably applies for all Kage). B seemed like a full grown man and he already had quite a bit of muscle by that point. He was, at youngest, a year or two older than current Naruto. At oldest, in his 20s. Killer B may be in his mid to late 30s, at this point.

And, no, at this point, B had long since mastered and become partners with his Hachibi. A was a fully matured, full blown kage, at this point. He even used his "fastest punch" against Minato.

That is more dangerous that Tobi and his full 6 paths. A and B are the deadliest assassin duo. 2 v 1 is their most potent combination.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, he can put a seal on Madara, but on the outside he can hardly put it on Madara himself to shut it down.

Originally posted by dadudemon
He can place the seal anywhere on the body of the susano'o.

And we already know my arguments for why and how Minato can touch Susano'o and/or seal up its use.

But why would a seal on the outside of Susano'o do anything?

No, your interpretation is not possible. The sword is too long for your interpretation to be correct. Based on the placement of his hand in the prior panel, it is reaching for his sheathed sword of Minato's nuts. The next panel shows his hand much further forward which clearly hows he discretely pulled out his sheathed sword (or stopped jacking off Minato...you pick) and pointed it at Minato's gut.

So your argument is Minato just stood there like an idiot while Bee was able to both draw and point his sword?

The arm position shifted a little, but not *that* much.

And, no, at this point, B had long since mastered and become partners with his Hachibi. A was a fully matured, full blown kage, at this point. He even used his "fastest punch" against Minato.

?

No, at this point, A was specifically not a Kage yet (Minato mentioned that. They were both in their Jonin outfits too, not their Kage outfits), and Bee was still in training with Hachibi and didn't know the biju ball yet.

That is more dangerous that Tobi and his full 6 paths. A and B are the deadliest assassin duo. 2 v 1 is their most potent combination.

Uh, not really. Tobi's really fast himself, and so are several of the Jinchuuriki. They have the 'overlapping vision' thing so no blind spots either. They also have stuff like Fu's blindness jutsu.

A and B are a very potent pair, but it's not as good as 6/7 on 1.

So how about that Sasuke? Character of the decade imo.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

Why is Tobi's head in the corner?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Why is Tobi's head in the corner?

'Cause he's a troll 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
'Cause he's a troll 🙂

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Q99, you're one of the coolest posters I know.

Hey Bolin!

Dude is awesome.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, I know, and I have occasionally been corrected and out-argued on this, but I like to think that I'm relying on firmer or at least more clear evidence to begin with- some of your stances are based on stuff that either aren't shown, or are only stated with single statements that are pretty loose, either having multiple interpretations or just perhaps hyperbolic, and more to the point, create plot problems if true (for example, if Minato can shut down sharingan powers in general, then he could shut down Tobi's ability to escape space-time wise too. And as you noted with Ultear, if you're right in her power- which contradicts several outright statements- then she's massively and tremendously lowballing in how she fights in every fight, which isn't author intent).

I mean, one of my big rules of thumb is, "If a reading is applied, does it force CIS into existence? And are there multiple readings, some of which that don't create any plot problems? Then it's not the CIS one."

You occasionally assume things that are unshown or you just feel is implied.

Lots of fluff in your post. Ultear was given powers that the author has to play down to even have fights. It is the authors fault. Explained this already to you. It's CIS and PIS.

Minato clearly can shutdown the power of the sharingan. To what extent, we do not know. Anything beyond getting rid of the sharingan's ability to control Kurama is just speculation.

Originally posted by Q99
Except her first almost-kill was just her normal arsenal.

Do you really want me to quote all of that crap again, at you? Because I've already buried/destroyed this line of reasoning from you with on panel evidence.

Originally posted by Q99
And more to the point, the actual jutsu for the second almost-kill she used was gigantic. Of all of Akatsuki, only Kisame and Pain and Deidara do similar scale. So she's got above-average for S-class chakra too.

Here's the difference, though, between the others in Akatsuki: she had tons of prep and observation to execute that plan. Like I said (for like..what...the 10th time?), give anyone years of observation and prep and watch them create massive-scale attacks as well.

She does not have above average chakra, either. She's got A to A+ levels of chakra. Kisame created his stuff on the fly, without a plan. She created her paper tags overtime. This is the difference between a chakra monster like Kisame and a great ninja like Konan.

Originally posted by Q99
She's got some good reaction feats (some slow ones too like getting caught by the hair, granted, but definitely some fast ones as well, and we can't just ignore blocking a surprise-fireball to the face point blank), and way more offense than Suigetsu, who is a rather impressive A+ with similar unkillability. Unlike him she also has powerful clones.

She did not block a fireball to the face, point blank. Come on, now....I actually showed you the panel and she is clearly 20-30 minutes away. That wasn't point blank. Even after she got up, started flying in the air, and approached Jiraiya, even I didn't claim that Jiraiya was point-blank: I said it was almost point blank.

Originally posted by Q99
Of the entire S- list, barely any would be able to score wins against her IMO.

Of the entire S- list, almost all would be able to win against her if she does not have prep.

Here are the ones I think would win:

Chiyo - Win. Not much trouble.
Danzo - Win. Without much trouble.
Darui - Win, but it is a 6 out of 10.
Fukasaku - Win, easily.
Ginkaku - Win, easily.
Hidan - Win, easily.
Hiruzen Sarutobi (Old) - Win, easily.
Kakashi Hatake (start of part 2) - Win, easily.
Kimimaro Kaguya (healthy) - Win, easily.
Kinkaku - Win, easily.
Kisame Hoshigaki (without Samehada) - Win, easily.
Kitsuchi - Win, easily.
Mangetsu Hōzuki (Swords) - No idea. Unproven. He could be an A to A+.
Mifune - Wins, easily.
Might Gai (part 2) - Easy win...she doesn't stand a chance.
Sasuke Uchiha (start of part 2) - Wins, easily.
Shima - Win, easily.
Shisui Uchiha - No idea...unproven. He could be an A, for all we know.
Zetsu (Black half or Complete) - No idea: virtually unproven. Could win, could lose.

I could bring up the A+ list for those that could beat her:

Animal Path (Pain) - Win, easily.
Asuma Sarutobi - Win, 6 out of 10.
Asura Path (Pain) - Win but it is 7 out of 10.
Enma - Win, easily.
Hiashi Hyuuga - Win, easily.
Ibuse the Salamander - IMO, useless without Hanzo.
Jūgo - Wins 3 out of 10.
Kabuto Yakushi - Wins, easily.
Kakashi Hatake (part 1) - Wins but with trouble. Maybe 6 out of 10.
Kimimaro Kaguya (sick) - Wins, easily.
Mangetsu Hōzuki (No swords) - No idea. Unproven.
Might Gai (part 1) - Wins, easily.
Multi-Headed Dog - Wins, easily.
Suigetsu Hōzuki - Wins, without much trouble. 9 out of 10.
Suikazan Fuguki (Samehada) - Wins, easily. Probably the easiest win in the A+ levels.
Yamato - Easy win. Wood >>>>>>>>>>>>>> paper.
Zabuza Momochi - Loses 8 out of 10.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, importantly, when brought to a vote, I think you are the only person who argued anything less than S. So your interpretation I've only seem come from you, and has several counter-arguments.

More importantly, I was the only one not wanking all over her feats, as well. So your logical fallacy, argumentum ad populum, fails from that approach, as well. Also, all the counter arguments I destroyed.

Originally posted by Q99
He also has the powerful fatal genjutsu he used on her in the end,

Wrong: Izanagi is not a "fatal" gentjutsu.

Originally posted by Q99
*and* he fought almost evenly with Minato,

He clearly did not. He was ousted at every attempt he made, quite clearly. He did not even succeed in killing Naruto from a distance.

Originally posted by Q99
almost killing *him* once (the time when he grabbed Minato and warped a bit too slow. If he'd been faster, and he did say he could warp faster, he'd have won).

Here's the problem with your logic: he did not say he could warp faster. It was his reaction time that he was referring to.

One translation puts things into clearer context:

http://www.mangareader.net/93-55464-9/naruto/chapter-502.html

"Next time I'll warp you the moment I lay my hands on you."

Makes much more sense considering they exchanged words before he started to warp Minato.

And, again, he did not say that he would have one if he warped him faster. 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
He's very fast and taijutsu skilled, and can kill pretty much anyone with that warp.

He seems slow/sluggish compared to someone like Minato. A, Guy, Naruto, maybe even B. They would all do just fine in taijutsu only exchanges.

Originally posted by Q99
I mean, if Tobi in that form isn't S+, then Minato might not be either, and that's just crazy talk.

You approach this subject incorrectly. Minato made Tobi (how had prep and Kurama), look like a chump at every exchange. That's clearly what you'd expect from an S+ versus a lower level character.

Originally posted by Q99
Minato has had two people almost kill him: Tobi and Young Bee. He's very good, but he's not invincible.

Minato has had no one almost kill him. 🙂

Unless, of course, you want to say that "B almost got killed" and "A almost got killed" and "Tobi almost got killed" at every exchange with Minato. In their cases, it was closer to an actually death than Minato experienced. 🙂

He's not invincible, for sure. He took some shrapnel to the shin when escaping an exploding house.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Dude is awesome.

Imma go talk to Q and break your heart now. mwahaha

Originally posted by Q99
But why would a seal on the outside of Susano'o do anything?

Because seals can work directly on chakra-based ninjtsus.

Why would a seal on the outside of Susano'o not do anything?

Originally posted by Q99
So your argument is Minato just stood there like an idiot while Bee was able to both draw and point his sword?

Yeah...imma have tuh ask you to not libel me. Be sure and post with a more level head and don't fall into the trap of angrier and angrier posts.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, Minato had the option to go through with the kill but he stopped because Minato clearly wanted to end the confrontation. Observe here:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/2.html

At this moment, B is reaching for his sword as his arm is further behind his back than in the next moment when we see it from the other side which shows his hand significantly farther forward:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/3.html

I had this argument with another poster (I do not remember who it was...it was recent) and this is what I was trying to convey to that poster.

Because of Minato's hesitation, B was able to create a stalemate. Minato remarks on how much of a classical Ninja B is by stating:

"Your movments are exactly like that of a shinobi killer." No hesitation in pulling out his sword which I would say he pulled out extremely quickly while Minato paused to tell Raikage what's what.

Minato monologued...which he usually never does. But it is understandable because he was fighting the Raikage and probably wanted to improve relations between the two countries.

Originally posted by Q99
The arm position shifted a little, but not *that* much.

The arm position shifted by more than a foot. That's huge. So huge that one cannot simply say it was a mistake by Kishimoto.

His hand goes from being behind the plane of his torso to in front of his body...about the length of the blade itself.

Originally posted by Q99
?

No, at this point, A was specifically not a Kage yet (Minato mentioned that. They were both in their Jonin outfits too, not their Kage outfits), and Bee was still in training with Hachibi and didn't know the biju ball yet.

No, you are not correct, from what I read. I was the one originally putting forth, in this thread, that Minato and A were not yet Kage in this flashback. So don't pretend as though you have some sort of revelation for me.

Really, I have changed my position to the assumption that they are both Kage at this point.

He became Raikage during the war:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/12.html

The clash between the two occurred during this war, as well. At worst, A was just about to be promoted to Raikage. At best, A was already Raikage when he clashed with Minato.

But here is why I changed my mind about A being Raikage at this point:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/13.html

A commands B to do more biju-dama training. Beast bomb training. B seemed to have mastered control of his biju by the time they clashed with Minato (not, on its own, an indicator that this occurred before the clash with Minato...but bear with me)...seems that A became Raikage before the clash with Minato. Lastly and furthermore....B took a back seat (and did not jump into the fight, immediately) when they came across Minato and his platoon. This fits more in line with A's command that he would remain in the village if the enemy attacks.

So I ammend my old position that A was not yet Raikage when he clashed with Minato. I think he was Raikage, at that point, now. Minato may not have been Hokage, however. BUT...Minato eithe was making a prophecy or he was already a Kage when he mentioned they would put the title of Kage on the line the next time they fought. Why would Minato know he was going to be Hokage? Isn't that arrogant of him?

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, not really. Tobi's really fast himself, and so are several of the Jinchuuriki. They have the 'overlapping vision' thing so no blind spots either. They also have stuff like Fu's blindness jutsu.

Originally posted by dadudemon
SYou cannot see an opponent move if they teleport. the 6 paths have a weakness in that specific area. Coordinated vision works because you can see which direction they come from. Pain and Madara are not as fast as Minato. Madara has been blitzed multiple times in his fight with the kages. Also, Madara does not have the shared vision, which is what this original discussion started from. A clone does not have shared vision with the original: even shadow clones. They have to release the clone in order to get their information.

Originally posted by Q99
A and B are a very potent pair, but it's not as good as 6/7 on 1.

Depends who the six or seven are, imo. It took Tobi a while to go to full biju mode. I would say that this would be a mistake against an A and B duo.

However, against Minato, it would be fatal for Tobi especially if Minato gets to go into the fight with just as much knowledge about Tobi, the paths, and the biju as Naruto and B got.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Imma go talk to Q and break your heart now. mwahaha

And I'm gonna go over here and be likable. awesome

On a side note, you and I should just wreck this thread until they stop. We made it basically unreadable once before. 😛

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
On a side note, you and I should just wreck this thread until they stop. We made it basically unreadable once before. 😛

As thought that would stop...us?

You underestimate our power.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And I'm gonna go over here and be likable. awesome

On a side note, you and I should just wreck this thread until they stop. We made it basically unreadable once before. 😛

While I may not be as likeable as you, I still get the girl. awesome

Bolin gif spam GO.

Pfft? Bolin? 😛

It was the best Bolin gif I could find.

Tenzin >

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You underestimate our power.

Not really. For if Q99 replies, then I will reply as well. Spamming the thread hardly changes that.

Not even creating hundreds of pages of spam will stop that because both of us can easily just look for the recent posts of the other...and direct link.

My balls. 😐

Suck them. 😐

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It was the best Bolin gif I could find.

Tenzin >

Yeah no.

Tenzin only wishes he was that skilled. 313

Originally posted by dadudemon
Not really. For if Q99 replies, then I will reply as well. Spamming the thread hardly changes that.

Not even creating hundreds of pages of spam will stop that because both of us can easily just look for the recent posts of the other...and direct link.

My balls. 😐

Suck them. 😐

You are not the only party involved young lad. Trust me, DP and I don't have to have a reason to spam this thread with all our shenanigans. A debate has the weakness of having a purpose and sooner or later, the purpose will run thin and the debate will stop. Our spamming is merely meant to load down the thread and stress the purpose faster.