The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by socool8520
Ohhhhhhhh.....You were referring to Kakashi as bijuu. My bad, I can see you argument for that now. I don't know if he could spam Kamui. I guess it depends on which bijuu it is. However, in relation to some characters, Kakashi has a pretty low chakra amount. I also think that Gai wuold be fine in he chakra department since he would really only use chakra for sharingan techniques, as to where Kakashi relies heavily on Chakra based attacks. I'm not so sure abou these jinchuurikii abilities unless he lets the bijuu take over his body. There is no guarantee that he would master the bijuu like Bee.

I didn't understand your third reference then. My bad. However, i do think that Itachi is a better sharingan user than Kakashi, but i don't think his Taijutsu is necessarily better though. And it seemed like Itachi really didn't want to fight against gai when they met up trying to capture Naruto.

I haven't been extremely impressed by third raikage so far. He handled Sasuke's imperfect Susan'o but doesn't seem to be doing much against Madara without help. I don't know about the third. he basically lost to speed and a rasengan against Naruto, although I can't honestly say how Gai's 7 gates speed compares to kyuubi mode naruto. It's slower I think, but how much slower is the question.

Sasuke is capable of spamming MS techs, and he doesn't have Bijuu level chakra.
It's actually hilarious how Kakashi's chakra reserves are what screw him over in nearly every battle he's been in.
No, there is no guarantee that Kakashi would master his bijuu, but being a Jinchuurikii still gives one pretty nifty abilities. Even a regular chakra cloak would be a good boost.

Meh, Itachi was just throwing those guys a bone. Itachi entered a brief skirmish with Bee and KCM Naruto, and they couldn't land a hit. Sasuke is someone who is relatively equal to Kakashi in Taijutsu IMO, and we've seen how easily Itachi can best him. Itachi's > Kakashi in terms of Taijutsu IMO.

That's A you are talking about. 3rd Raikage is the dad, and he's a lot more durable than A is, to the point where he could tank an Afternoon Tiger IMO. He's got speed comparable to Gates Gai, and better reactions. He also has Black Lightning and a piercing attack that makes Chidori/Raikiri look like a wooden spoon in comparison.

Originally posted by Q99
Nah, I just changed my mind over time.

Which does mean your argument almost certainly placed the seeds of thinking it 🙂

The funny thing is, Gai really does seem to legitimately rank stronger than his 'rival,' Kakashi, for awhile.

One thing, though- he only does his nicer gate abilities post-timeskip. What do we do with part 1 when he hasn't shown them yet?

Thought so. The notion of Nemebro being a good booty call was laughable to me. vin

Seriously though, I trust you know I was joking.

I've always assumed he had them pre-timeskip as well. Lee could open 5 and use Reverse Lotus; but since he did not display them, ranking him without gates usage, like you've done, is the way to go I guess.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sasuke is capable of spamming MS techs, and he doesn't have Bijuu level chakra.
It's actually hilarious how Kakashi's chakra reserves are what screw him over in nearly every battle he's been in.
No, there is no guarantee that Kakashi would master his bijuu, but being a Jinchuurikii still gives one pretty nifty abilities. Even a regular chakra cloak would be a good boost.

Meh, Itachi was just throwing those guys a bone. Itachi entered a brief skirmish with Bee and KCM Naruto, and they couldn't land a hit. Sasuke is someone who is relatively equal to Kakashi in Taijutsu IMO, and we've seen how easily Itachi can best him. Itachi's > Kakashi in terms of Taijutsu IMO.

That's A you are talking about. 3rd Raikage is the dad, and he's a lot more durable than A is, to the point where he could tank an Afternoon Tiger IMO. He's got speed comparable to Gates Gai, and better reactions. He also has Black Lightning and a piercing attack that makes Chidori/Raikiri look like a wooden spoon in comparison.

Yeah. and I think Sasuke spamming MS is ridiculous, however Sasuke is known to have alot of chakra as Kakashi is not.
I agree that the lack of chakra does screw over Kakashi, and that it a weak cop out. I feel it is the same way with Shikamaru.

A regular cloak helps but, i still think at that level it can be overcome to some degree. Plus it hurts the Jinchuuriki over time as well. he doesn't heal as fast as an Uzamaki.

itachi didn't beat Kakashi with Taijutsu so that statement is debatable.

You're right, At the beginning, I was talking about A, but I swtched to his dad in the last statement but forgot to remove the sentence before it. my bad.

Originally posted by Q99
A jutsu on her person is shown talking about jutsu expiring.

It could be called the 'mug mug' jutsu, the point would be the same.

The jutsu is shown in constant use in the fight itself- she's visibly part paper the entire time!

She could be talking about fireball and it still wouldn't be an argument for her not spending most of her time in paper form.

No she is not "paper" the entire time. You just said, previously, most of the time. Now you're changing it? Bad form. We also know from on panel evidence that she is not partial paper the entire time.

Lastly, all of your points are irrelevant or wrong to what I stated.

Originally posted by Q99
That everyone but you is in on? C'mon.

No-one at Naruto Wikia thinks she doesn't spend most of her time in paper.

No-one else here does.

I can find no-one who agrees with you on this topic at all.

You're lying and moving the goal posts. Stay on topic.

What you're lying about is that everyone agrees what the tech was that she could no longer maintain. No more of this lying stuff. Do not shift what is talked about to fit your dishonest agenda.

Like I said, almost every location I can find (minus the Naruto Wiki discussion page) shows that jutsu being the massive paper bomb attack she did against Tobi. Then add in that Databook III clearly tells us what her "paper body" tech is actually called (and even gives us pictures), then we can end the discussion/debate.

Originally posted by Q99
Look at the first date in the post I made:

on this information and its validity cannot be vouched for."

Go to the talk page for elaboration:
"Which info is false ? It seems correct to my knowledge. --speysider (talk) 16:15, [b]March 9, 2012 (UTC)

In the chapter the paper ocean thing was used, Konan talked about how her "Paper Person of God" technique was dissipating because of her having used too much chakra. However, she never specifically mentioned the paper ocean thing to be that technique. Therefore, the assumption that she was referring to this technique can be regarded as false info.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 16:33, March 9, 2012 (UTC)"

March 9 2012![/B]

I am open to you actually proving that the disclaimer has been on the page since March 2012. However, that disclaimer has been on the page for over a year. I, seriously, looked through dozens of edits and still could not find when they added the disclaimer. I stopped after looking through 50 edits and nothing you said matches up. It looks like the first mention of "false info" occurs in August of 2011. The next section occurs after august, in March, and that post is asking "what false info" which clearly supports what I am talking about. I was off by 3 months, however: it's been 9 months, not a year.

My point was, that disclaimer has been on the page since the last time we argued about Konan last year. We had our argument in September. Now is it clicking?

Originally posted by Q99
And you're also skipping over: Previous topics resolved in favor of it not being the correct name.

You're the one being dishonest here.

Incorrect and that was again, dishonest of you. You're going out of your way to lie, still. It was resolved back in 2011 when they referenced the databook: the databook clearly indicated the tech you are referring to as being Shikigami no Mai.

Originally posted by Q99
Last post by a mod from the past debate:
"I'd say the names match the abilities pretty well, actually. The Paper Angel Technique, in my opinion, is not the giant chasm of paper Konan created. I think it refers either to her ability to turn herself (and other things) into paper, or her ability to control that paper. When Konan mentioned her technique was cancelling, her hair ornament and all the other paper flowers started to fall apart. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 11:46, September 17, 2010 (UTC)"

The posts by non-mods after agree.

Again, you're being dishonest. You're lying directly right now, it's absurd.

You are taking only snip-its of the conversation to fit your dishonest agenda. It was resolved, by an Admin, on the Naruto wiki, by referencing the Third Databook.

"The databook reference cites the information in the infobox (rank, classification, etc.) A translation of the entry itself can be found here. ~SnapperTo 21:54, April 26, 2011 (UTC) "

And, again, only two people had differing opinions on what I was talking about.

Here one is:

"The unexpected kinjutsu of the title is Tobi's use of Izanagi. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:45, March 10, 2012 (UTC) "

That was directly address with this:

"Sealed within an ocean of paper ... a secret technique protects Nagato Konan displays her ultimate paper technique, trying to send Madara into the abyss My paper angel technique wore off It's sure it, and also what you said Omni ... it can work both ways. --Elveonora (talk) 16:58, March 10, 2012 (UTC) "

Now no more of your lies and agenda, please. You have been thoroughly destroyed, by this point.

Go ahead, now start posting another old section at me and pretending it is some how relevant. I'll be here, working.

Originally posted by Q99
They came to a clear conclusion different from what you say.

The did not. Just the opposite.

Originally posted by Q99
Do not accuse people of dishonest when you haven't read what you're talking about.

Wrong: you stop being dishonest with your approach to the topic by both ignoring the decisive counter arguments to your fanboy agenda. I read the discussions before this recent argument even began. I read them earlier today when I linked you with the "let me google that for you" as well.

So, again, stop with your dishonest approach to the topic. Stop ignoring the portions that have destroyed your approach. Stop ignoring every time I reference the Third Databook that clearly and decisively ended this discussion.

Originally posted by Q99
And gee, seeing the jutsu actively turn off, and seeing it on constantly on the rest of the time, and seeing her mention that she's low on chakra (yes, not completely out, but exhausted and clearly low and turning off persisted jutsu), and seeing no-one but you think that she isn't in paper form most of the time, and having actually seen her operate in a logia-like fashion where major damage to paper does nothing all counts for nothing?

More lies. Stop lying.

You are also contradicting yourself.

She is not "paper" the entire time. You just said, previously, most of the time. Now you're changing it? Bad form. We also know from on panel evidence that she is not partial paper the entire time.

So there goes your entire argument, again.

And, before I allow you to continue to move the goalposts...

This argument started with you saying she was out of chakra when she clearly was not.

Originally posted by Q99
Not impressed.

Not impressed with insults either.

No insults occurred. Stop playing a victim.

You should have actually addressed those points that clearly show how wrong you are. You avoided them. Your entire approach to the topic has been childish, as of late. You ignore the portions that show you are wrong and then take other portions out of context to fit your agenda. How can you expect to be taken seriously?

Originally posted by Q99
'Thinking ahead' is not prep. It's simply thinking ahead.

When someone is said to have specific prep abilities, that means they can do stronger attacks due to setting up preparations. Konan almost-killed Tobi with an attack she didn't set up in advance, then almost-killed him again with one she did.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Secondly, it was prep that caused Tobi's arm to be blown off...she had a multifaceted plan against Tobi. Even Tobi recognized that she had a plan:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/6.html

Thirdly, her plan was to suicide bomb Tobi:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/7.html

Also, it was prep:

1. The action of making ready or being made ready for use.
2. Something done to get ready for an event or undertaking.

Yup, it's prep. Tobi recognized it was pre, why can't you? Why do you continue to ignore it was prep and still pretend it was "live-on-the-fly" attempts? 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
I mean, Deidara planned specifically and extensively for both Gaara and Sasuke. We don't discount all of his jutsu in those fights despite them being planned.

You're correct: we certainly don't. However, discount the prep-related attacks and Deidara is still quote versitile and powerful against a myriad of opponents...except those with a sharingan and lightning element techs. 😐

Originally posted by Q99
Both Sasuke and Itachi planned out their fight in depth- likewise.

Sasuke prepared on how to fight against Itachi's specialities, but those directly carry over into other fights. They gave themselves abilities with their preparation. Creating 600 billion tags and putting them in a lake OR studying your opponent and finding the weakness to their intangibility and then designing a way to get past that are both prep.

Sasuke's abilities with genjutsu that he developed to combat Itachi? He can still use those in other fights. Konan's used up 600 billion tags? She can't use that again. Konan's studying and devising a plan to blow up Tobi right when he escapes? She can't use that again against anyone except for Tobi: that's person specific prep.

Originally posted by Q99
That's just applying different standards to different characters.

I know you're doing that: stop it. 🙂 Don't bump up Konan for reasons she cannot be bumped up: her prep does not carry her over into other fights.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, women hate it when you try to be logical at them.

1. That's a strawman.
2. They really do have that problem because women are much more emotional in their arguments: fact. 😉

Originally posted by socool8520
Yeah. and I think Sasuke spamming MS is ridiculous, however Sasuke is known to have alot of chakra as Kakashi is not.
I agree that the lack of chakra does screw over Kakashi, and that it a weak cop out. I feel it is the same way with Shikamaru.

A regular cloak helps but, i still think at that level it can be overcome to some degree. Plus it hurts the Jinchuuriki over time as well. he doesn't heal as fast as an Uzamaki.

itachi didn't beat Kakashi with Taijutsu so that statement is debatable.

You're right, At the beginning, I was talking about A, but I swtched to his dad in the last statement but forgot to remove the sentence before it. my bad.

My point exactly. With a bijuu in him, Kakashi will have much more chakra than Sasuke does.

It can be overcome, but it still helps. Gives increased speed and power.
Depends on how long one uses it.

Itachi's shown more skill in Taijutsu, so IMO, he's > Kakashi.

A's dad lost out to Naruto being smart and using his own attack against him, thanks to some knowledge.

Well, to end the "was it prep or not" portion of the discussion:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/15.html

Obviously, that wasn't the end of her plan, but that clearly indicates that Tobi recongized what she was doing was part of her plan.

Also, she hid exploding tags into her "surround Tobi and suicide bomb him" attack she initially instigated against Tobi. Clearly, she had a two pronged plan: suicide bomb and continuous exploding.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
My point exactly. With a bijuu in him, Kakashi will have much more chakra than Sasuke does.

It can be overcome, but it still helps. Gives increased speed and power.
Depends on how long one uses it.

Itachi's shown more skill in Taijutsu, so IMO, he's > Kakashi.

A's dad lost out to Naruto being smart and using his own attack against him, thanks to some knowledge.

See but that's the problem. With the amount of spamming Sasuke does, he likely already has the chakra of a bijuu. lol Which again is ridiculous, but then again, oro may have injected him with something that upped his chakra stores. Plus, with him not naturally being a sharingan carrier, Kakashi's sharingan attacks are much more taxing than when Sasuke does them. I believe that has been stated.

He'd probably have to use it about the same amount of time as Gai would use his 7th gate.lol

Meh, Itachi beat faster characters, but it seems like Naruto and Bee jobbed out. I really think it is crap that Itachi could fend off Bee and arguably the 1st or 2nd fastest person in the manga with taijutsu alone. And then get nailed by kabuto.

Originally posted by socool8520
See but that's the problem. With the amount of spamming Sasuke does, he likely already has the chakra of a bijuu. lol Which again is ridiculous, but then again, oro may have injected him with something that upped his chakra stores. Plus, with him not naturally being a sharingan carrier, Kakashi's sharingan attacks are much more taxing than when Sasuke does them. I believe that has been stated.

He'd probably have to use it about the same amount of time as Gai would use his 7th gate.lol

Meh, Itachi beat faster characters, but it seems like Naruto and Bee jobbed out. I really think it is crap that Itachi could fend off Bee and arguably the 1st or 2nd fastest person in the manga with taijutsu alone. And then get nailed by kabuto.

Remember when Sasuke fought Itachi? Sasuke had to resort to his Cursed Seal form because he ran out of chakra. He ran out of chakra before his brother. Itachi was sick.

So I do not think Sasuke has as much chakra as we (yes, I am included in that) thought.

There was something about his fight with Danzo that people were saying Sasuke had tons of chakra. Is that true? I thought Sasuke was healed up before fighting Danzo?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Remember when Sasuke fought Itachi? Sasuke had to resort to his Cursed Seal form because he ran out of chakra. He ran out of chakra before his brother. Itachi was sick.

So I do not think Sasuke has as much chakra as we (yes, I am included in that) thought.

There was something about his fight with Danzo that people were saying Sasuke had tons of chakra. Is that true? I thought Sasuke was healed up before fighting Danzo?

I think he bit Karin to heal up but he wasn't fully healed. However he was able to complete that fight shooting Susan'o arrows while maintaining Susan'o and catch Danzo in a genjutsu, and the to top it all off he can still pull up another susan'o when Kakashi arrives and attack with Chidori (another chakra sucking attack). So his chakra reserves are quite impressive since he's not even an Uzamaki or Jinchuurikii. It's pretty ridiculous imo.

Originally posted by socool8520
I think he bit Karin to heal up but he wasn't fully healed. However he was able to complete that fight shooting Susan'o arrows while maintaining Susan'o and catch Danzo in a genjutsu, and the to top it all off he can still pull up another susan'o when Kakashi arrives and attack with Chidori (another chakra sucking attack). So his chakra reserves are quite impressive since he's not even an Uzamaki or Jinchuurikii. It's pretty ridiculous imo.

He was only able to very shortly summon Susano'o against Kakashi. It was more a rage moment. He didn't do much with it.

So, I think my speculation was right: Sasuke has not, as of yet, shown biju levels of chakra.

His only chakra-ass-pull moment was summoning manda when he should have been out of chakra.

Are there any other examples that you can think of that has Sasuke ass-pull chakra?

Originally posted by dadudemon
He was only able to very shortly summon Susano'o against Kakashi. It was more a rage moment. He didn't do much with it.

So, I think my speculation was right: Sasuke has not, as of yet, shown biju levels of chakra. He was also able to use susan'o twice when he fought at the five kages summit. He used it against the lava kage (i always forget her name), and then again against A while also using Amaterasu

His only chakra-ass-pull moment was summoning manda when he should have been out of chakra.

Are there any other examples that you can think of that has Sasuke ass-pull chakra?

Well, you already mentioned the Itachi fight. The Danzo and then aftermath with Kakashi/Naruto was enough to make me call BS. I think he used several techniques in the Deidara fight didn't he? I know he used genjutsu, and the improved chidori ritan. He did use the chidori more times than was supposed to be possible in the fight with Gaara in part 1. He was able to match the 1 tails Naruto in Part 1 as well.

Or, since Sasuke's eyes are considered better than Itachi's by pretty much everyone, maybe the techs just don't cost as much with his eyes.

Originally posted by socool8520
Well, you already mentioned the Itachi fight.

In that fight, Sasuke ran out of chakra more quickly than Itachi and Itachi was supposed to be ill. So that shows his chakra was limited.

He then had to resort to using his cursed seal. That was used up, as well. He then had to use up everything he had to make that "lightning" strike thing against Itachi. And then, after that, he used up the maximum amount of the cursed seal, summoning Oro.

So Sasuke kind of ran out of chakra 3 times in his fight with Itachi.

Originally posted by socool8520
The Danzo and then aftermath with Kakashi/Naruto was enough to make me call BS.

What about it, though? Sasuke was revived for his fight with Danzo. Then he ran out. Then he got some back by biting Karin. Then he ran out...and could barely maintain Susano'o. So it seems like he was chakra depleted in that fight, as well.

Originally posted by socool8520
I think he used several techniques in the Deidara fight didn't he? I know he used genjutsu, and the improved chidori ritan. He did use the chidori more times than was supposed to be possible in the fight with Gaara in part 1. He was able to match the 1 tails Naruto in Part 1 as well.

He was able to match the 1-tails Naruto with an upgraded Sharingan and using his cursed seal.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Or, since Sasuke's eyes are considered better than Itachi's by pretty much everyone, maybe the techs just don't cost as much with his eyes.

That's supportable by direct on panel evidence (the one about Sasuke's being better than Itachi's).

Sasuke was able to break Tsukuyomi.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v42/c388/14.html

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v42/c388/15.html

Originally posted by socool8520
See but that's the problem. With the amount of spamming Sasuke does, he likely already has the chakra of a bijuu. lol Which again is ridiculous, but then again, oro may have injected him with something that upped his chakra stores. Plus, with him not naturally being a sharingan carrier, Kakashi's sharingan attacks are much more taxing than when Sasuke does them. I believe that has been stated.

He'd probably have to use it about the same amount of time as Gai would use his 7th gate.lol

Meh, Itachi beat faster characters, but it seems like Naruto and Bee jobbed out. I really think it is crap that Itachi could fend off Bee and arguably the 1st or 2nd fastest person in the manga with taijutsu alone. And then get nailed by kabuto.

His chakra stores have definitely improved significantly during Part 2, but nah, I doubt he has Bijuu levels of chakra. At least, he did not during the Danzou fight where he ran out of chakra at the end, according to Tobi at least. For all we know, his chakra levels are plot dependent, so they could vary.

Indeed, Kakashi isn't as chakra efficient in his Sharingan usage, but if he has Bijuu levels, it wouldn't matter.

Well, they weren't going all out, and neither was Itachi for that matter, but it does show that he's good in Taijutsu. Plus he's better than Sasuke, who is no slouch himself.
Oh, and Kabuto caught him off-guard, and PIS and for all we know, Itachi may be leading him into a trap.

Originally posted by dadudemon
In that fight, Sasuke ran out of chakra more quickly than Itachi and Itachi was supposed to be ill. So that shows his chakra was limited.

He then had to resort to using his cursed seal. That was used up, as well. He then had to use up everything he had to make that "lightning" strike thing against Itachi. And then, after that, he used up the maximum amount of the cursed seal, summoning Oro.

So Sasuke kind of ran out of chakra 3 times in his fight with Itachi.

What about it, though? Sasuke was revived for his fight with Danzo. Then he ran out. Then he got some back by biting Karin. Then he ran out...and could barely maintain Susano'o. So it seems like he was chakra depleted in that fight, as well.

He was able to match the 1-tails Naruto with an upgraded Sharingan and using his cursed seal.

the fact is, he somehow always has more chakra, be it a curse seal, a bite from karin, etc.

Where was it stated that he was revived before the Danzo fight? It looked to me when Tobi was going to get him, he was sitting in a fatigued sort of fashion.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Or, since Sasuke's eyes are considered better than Itachi's by pretty much everyone, maybe the techs just don't cost as much with his eyes.

I don't know. I see where it states that, but I mean Itachi has been using it a lot longer than Sasuke so that may have been a factor. And we know that sasuke was going blind so early fromhis use of it but I don't remember reading that itachi's were at the same level. But I guess the on panel evidence wins out.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
His chakra stores have definitely improved significantly during Part 2, but nah, I doubt he has Bijuu levels of chakra. At least, he did not during the Danzou fight where he ran out of chakra at the end, according to Tobi at least. For all we know, his chakra levels are plot dependent, so they could vary.

Indeed, Kakashi isn't as chakra efficient in his Sharingan usage, but if he has Bijuu levels, it wouldn't matter.

Well, they weren't going all out, and neither was Itachi for that matter, but it does show that he's good in Taijutsu. Plus he's better than Sasuke, who is no slouch himself.
Oh, and Kabuto caught him off-guard, and PIS and for all we know, Itachi may be leading him into a trap.

They seem to be plot dependent.

I guess so.

I don't know if it's PIS that Kabuto tagged him since sage mode ups your speed. I think it's more PIS that Itachi could handle BEE and Naruto in taijutsu

Originally posted by socool8520
Where was it stated that he was revived before the Danzo fight? It looked to me when Tobi was going to get him, he was sitting in a fatigued sort of fashion.

Could someone answer this guy's question?

I remember we (the anime/manga peeps) covered this already and someone settled that argument with a scan. Don't remember where that was.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Could someone answer this guy's question?

I remember we (the anime/manga peeps) covered this already and someone settled that argument with a scan. Don't remember where that was.

I remember him sitting on the floor looking fatigued when Tobi showed up to warp him to Danzou's location.