Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Danzou's Izanagi only lasted for a minute. Tobi's lasted for 10 minutes. It varies, but apparently it only lasts for longer than a few seconds if you have Senju DNA.
The loop starts a little before Kabuto grabs Sasuke's sword, and ends a little after Itachi and Kabuto clash.Yeah, they do. Though it's most likely the last one I posted, as Kabuto's horn does not 'regenerate' until after that last scan.
~ Also, dammit Aura, let's derail this thread. This Konan shit has gotten old.
Did it? He really only had to fake about 5 minutes at most right, since he can stay in the de-materialized state for that long? Did he state e was in izanagi the whole time?
Originally posted by socool8520
Did it? He really only had to fake about 5 minutes at most right, since he can stay in the de-materialized state for that long? Did he state e was in izanagi the whole time?
He took off his mask right after realizing that the Paper chasm was filled with Exploding Tags that would explode for a lot longer than 5 minutes, and right before Konan set them all off.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He took off his mask right after realizing that the Paper chasm was filled with Exploding Tags that would explode for a lot longer than 5 minutes, and right before Konan set them all off.
Right, I'm just saying he could effectively dodge for at least five minutes with his space/time jutsu, let alone how fast he is. The Izanagi could have still not lasted for ten minutes or more. of course, either way we argue it, the izanagi still lasted more than a minute as you stated. So in essence, you win.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
she wasn't completely empty, but she was running of fumes at that point. her paper body tech has to have a weakness and it looks like it takes a lot of chackra to maintain, which lead to her downfall.
It takes a lot of chakra to maintain if your doing something as large as something like 600 billion exploding tags. lol I'm sure keeping her regular paper form isn't that taxing.
Originally posted by socool8520
Right, I'm just saying he could effectively dodge for at least five minutes with his space/time jutsu, let alone how fast he is. The Izanagi could have still not lasted for ten minutes or more. of course, either way we argue it, the izanagi still lasted more than a minute as you stated. So in essence, you win.
Tobi's intangibility limit is 5 minutes, according to Konan, who then proceeds to state that there were enough tags to cause multiple explosions that would appear to be continuous for 10 minutes; i.e. Tobi would only be blown apart after roughly 5 minutes had elapsed.
But yeah, not really important.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Tobi's intangibility limit is 5 minutes, according to Konan, who then proceeds to state that there were enough tags to cause multiple explosions that would appear to be continuous for 10 minutes; i.e. Tobi would only be blown apart after roughly 5 minutes had elapsed.But yeah, not really important.
Agreed. Just trying to get a majority ruling for later consensus or something if this comes up again. lol. Right now it's longer than a minute but not necessarily 10 minutes.
Originally posted by socool8520duh
It takes a lot of chakra to maintain if your doing something as large as something like 600 billion exploding tags. lol I'm sure keeping her regular paper form isn't that taxing.
Originally posted by NemeBronever say that again to me *madara stare*
Holy shit, did PG just agree with Q99?Q has to be right then.
Originally posted by socool8520
You're right. Her defense in general is better than most. However, I think people like Kakashi, Gai, Sasuke have strong enough attacks to handle the defense (based on fire attacks like the Uchiha fireball, or peacock attacks that are wide and/or numerous)
Mind, she did block Jiraiya's fireball.
Those are some of the ones that'd be the most dangerous for her. Of the three, I think Kakashi would have the toughest time- he tends to go for precision rather than area. His preferred move, lightning stab to the heart? Bad idea.
True, but I'm thinking more along the lines of the wind element Naruto style that tears at the molecular level. You kno like the kind of wind that will erode rock over time on a bigger S classed scale. Same with water ala Kakashi water dragon jutsu or Kisame water jutsus.
Yea, but most wind attacks aren't like rasenshuriken, most are high-pressure gusts, simple wind blades, or the like.
Kisame's sharks would likely take a fair number of hits to take her down. His lake jutsu and general water steams wouldn't do much.
I agree. That's why S classed ninjutsu/Taijutsu (in Gai's case) come into play. I have no notions that less than that is bringing her down
Yea, most taijutsu experts, even strong ones, would be screwed and would get wrapped up, but Gai's gates are nasty ^^
Again, I agree, but I am glad we can agree that he is probably the weakest S ever, and that is solely based off the fact that not everyone knows his jutsus. Otherwise I think he is A class at best [/B]
Agreed.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Naruto & Sasuke have 0 S-rank missions under their belts, and Itachi has 1.You better not be saying Konan is 30x Itachi, and Infinityx Naruto & Sasuke. uhuh
Nah, of course not 🙂
Still, having a lot of high rank missions under your belt, especially when in a small village that doesn't have a lot of high-rank ninja around to do as a group, is a good sign.
actually, that just means they weren't given those missions officially. naruto for instance came back to konoha from the toad mountain without getting the official mission from the dead tsunade, and took on pein; which is nothing short of an S rank mission.
sasuke took on a kage gauntlet
and itachi's only official S-rank mission was killing the uchiha clan, then he quit kanoha.
Originally posted by Q99
There is burned paper and pieces of her outfit
You had to only click the very next page to see that Tobi's outfit was the one missing a large piece, not hers:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/13.html
Her outfit is whole. See here:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c510/7.html
So will you concede this point, now?
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, Tobi saved her because if he didn't suck in the blast, it would've been enough to burn her away completely.
This is a major concession from you and been my major complaint about any discussion with you (that you never concede to being wrong about anything). You are conceding that she would have died if Tobi did not save her even though she was in a complete paper form: something you implied could not happen because she has Logia invulnerability. Thank you very much for conceding a major point of contention concerning Konan's abilities.
Originally posted by Q99
And before the blast when flying in, she has significantly more torso, as well as a fully formed left arm down to the hand, and not only that, but grows a right-arm and hand when flying in!Konan creates a cloud around her but does not dissolve into paper like with the butterflies (which, when she does it other times, has her scatter apart in a different manner), and it's the blast/space suck that reduces her to a partial-torso with no limbs state.
I don't understand this point's relevance, at all. She was a cloud of paper by the end of the attack...but he sucked it all up with him, saving her, and him. because he sucked her up, he had to take some of the blast tags, which she worked into her...person?...and that's why he got injured. This is speculation on my part, but it is not baseless, has supporting evidence, and is not contradicted.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c509/6.html
Originally posted by Q99
We know that for at least that moment, she does not have a body while she is at that location.That's not baseless speculation, that's what's there.
You did not address what I had just stated, Q99.
Here is what I stated:
"We have no idea how she started her assault as we do not see what she does when she approaches them. You are baselessly speculating and as I show, later, you are actually contradicted in some locations."
Why did I state that? Because you used that page as evidence that she starts off her fights in her Dance of the Shikigami from. We do not know how she started that encounter. We only see the aftermath of the skirmish. Based on how she has started at least one other fight, she starts in her full-human form.
Originally posted by Q99
But only tangible in the sense paper is tangible, just as a fire logia is vulnerable to that which destroys fire.Stuff like stabs and crushes? Not so much.
Well...she kind of was defeated with a stab, though. You said she has logia invulnerability: she does not. I am okay with you moving the goal posts and only saying that while she is in her Dance of the Shikigami from, she is logia invulnerability. However, that's still not correct, either. She can clearly be incapacitated with oil, burns up easily with fire (like...in a flash), can be killed easily with just explosive tags, and is susceptible to chakra absorption. I would say any wind techs would force a massive chakra drain on her part. Wind cutting techs, like Temari's would be devastating for her (Temari would have an easy win, no doubt, against Konan). Konan is better against some type of opponents, IMO. hmmm...I'll get back to you on that.
Originally posted by Q99
Uh, considering there's four members there including a Jonin and Shino, and she's also maintaining that giant tree elsewhere, and she retreats soon after? And as you mention there's a pretty solid chance it's clone?
1. She's not maintaining the tree. As I have shown, she can just make stuff and it stays. It's not like a ferrofluid where you have to maintain constant magnetism to keep the shape.
2. You were the one saying she could roll over multiple ninja, with ease, not me. That's why I pointed that out. Again, what did I say she couldn't do?: she can't roll-over high-level characters.
3. Even if it is a shadow paper clone, shadow clones are still get quite a bit of chakra from the original and have all the same abilities. If she only made 2 of them, those shadow clones were quite heavy-laden with chakra (keep in mind, people aren't like Naruto with their clones).
Originally posted by Q99
Yes.And it retreats because the town's about to be blown up, same reason every Pain body retreats.
If I am not mistaken, didn't she summon the bodies? And the town did not blow up: it was squished with some massive pushing (babies were born).
Originally posted by Q99
Which brings up another point- Konan has pretty powerful clones. Clones are generally noticeably weaker than the main user, and Jonin tend to make short work of even fairly strong clones.
No, shadow clones are very powerful and on par with the creator IF the user is as good as distributing chakra as people like Naruto, Kakashi, or Hiruzen. If you want an example of a powerful clone, look no further than Hiruzen: his clones were so powerful that they were able to grab and hold the first and second Hokage...while under the Hokage's darkness genjutsu. Hiruzen is probably the best user of shadow clones out there. Anyone at the jonin level or higher makes shadow clones (they come in many forms) so powerful as to be indistinguishable from the creator.
But...yes...her shadow clones are definitely powerful. She's a high-level ninja: at least mid-level jonin level. Not quite kage level, though.
Originally posted by Q99
... because being in paper for the entirety of combats still means that during the combat she has the defensive benefits.
But she doesn't always do that. In fact, it's rare that she goes to a complete paper form. I think the reason is obvious: it takes quite a bit of chakra to do so. But you also failed to address my point. She did not start the confrontation with Tobi in a complete or even partial paper form like you have been trying to say she does when she starts them. I have cleanly established this, now. I don't think this point can be debated further.
I will give/concede this: she appears to start most of her confrontations in a partial paper form. I can understand why, as well: it would allow her to quickly go all paper form to avoid some attacks or create her own attacks. It seems to take a while to go from pure solid form to all paper form.
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, if she's attacked outside of combat or when she thinks she's safe, it's not automatic.
Okay, awesome. This was another major point of contention. That's another concession on your part. You're conceding so many points, now, that I feel I should legitimately concede something. I will find something and concede it out of respect. You are making me eat my words that you never concede anything.
Originally posted by Q99
But once combat begins, if an opponent does not have a way to hurt her when she's in paper form, well, that's a problem, because she's going to be in paper form constantly until the combat is over!
I disagree, on this portion. Obviously, fire techs make short work of her. Anyone with mid-level fire techs can make short work of her. An Uchiha with a speed level of 4.5 would be the absolute worst opponent for her. I saw 4.5 because Jiraiya was that level (I assume his stats were based off of his base stats rather than his hermit mode. His hermit mode would amp all physical stats including stamina...so I don't think his stats are reflected properly).
Also, any high-level taijutsu user would a nighmare for her. Keep in mind that Gai could easily dissipate gaara's sand with the flick of a hand....and I think Konan is just a weaker version of Gaara. She obviously cannot make very many pieces of paper out of her person and someone with high-level of speed and taijutsu could beat the shit out of her partial paper form, quickly wearing her down. She can't stay in full paper form for long...but that would be her best bet against people like Gai and Rock Lee.
Originally posted by Q99
Even the formed part reacts like paper, not flesh.
No, that's not true. As I have shown multiple times now, she is tangible in her partial form.
Originally posted by Q99
By 'intangible' I do not mean "attacks literally pass through her like they do Tobi".
Okay, cool. But, that's what intangible means, though. uhuh
Originally posted by Q99
I mean "attacks damage some paper, which does no real damage to Konan as she replaces paper. You know, much like a logia."
Well, no, she can take damage in her partial form because she's tangible...as I pointed out earlier.
Originally posted by Q99
But when an explosion hit a partially formed body Seen here, missing legs but nothing else, her entire torso and then some is formed, including both arms
Wah? What are you talking about? There was no explosion up to that point of the scan you just showed. Did you mean to show that one?
Originally posted by Q99
She loses paper but does not bleed, and can replenish that paperThe areas hit react like paper and are replenishable.
No, you have it wrong. She is simply reforming her body because she went all paper right before he blast: she mixed in explosive tags with her paper body form and hoped to destroy herself. Tobi had to save her and did so but lost his arm because of that mixture.
When we come back, we see her reforming her entire body. She didn't blow herself up. Had she done so, she would have died. So, no, the way you are portraying that scan is incorrect.
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, what precisely is she going to do to stop a Rasenshuriken at that range? Or if he Bijus out again?Nagato's an immobile target. There's very little anyone could do to stop Naruto there.
B-but...but...
You said she could go intangible. 😐
So she's not as intangible as you make her out to be? Even in the partial shikigami form? See, I think all along you actually agree with me. 313
But, Nagato was prepared for death. I think Nagato was a very good character. I liked him. He reminded me of an emo Klingon.
Anyway, you conceded 3 major points of contention. So I would like to concede something to keep up the idea that real dialogue can actually happen. Hmmmm. What could I concede.
Okay, this. I think I am willing to bump her back up to S- because of her ability to make shadow clones that can each bust out powerful stuff. That's similar to Naruto making shadow clones in sage mode. I still think she's a better fit for a mid A+, though.
Originally posted by Q99
Oh yes, one more thing about Konan:She has 30 S-rank missions under her belt.
Might Gai has 23.
She had Yahiko and Nagato in her group, though, so that does not say much about her.
Also, her group was hired by other nations to do hard missions. Remember Old Man "Me back be aching" kage hiring Akatsuki for missions? I think...that.
Also, this:
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Naruto & Sasuke have 0 S-rank missions under their belts, and Itachi has 1.You better not be saying Konan is 30x Itachi, and Infinityx Naruto & Sasuke. uhuh
Originally posted by psycho gundam
she wasn't completely empty, but she was running of fumes at that point. her paper body tech has to have a weakness and it looks like it takes a lot of chackra to maintain, which lead to her downfall.
I agree that she was low on chakra. but she was preparing a massive attack when she got choke slammed by Tobi. Seems as though she wasn't running that low. If she had used up every last little ounce of her chakra, her hair would have turned white like Nagato's. .
Originally posted by Q99
Mind, she did block Jiraiya's fireball.
Well, sort of. Jiraiya burned away almost all of the excess paper she had about (which was mostly in the form of a stabby stab stab spear). So, imho, she used all of her free paper to keep it from burning her person. And why would she do that if...drumroll...she would be just fine if it hit her? 🙂
I know...I know. I'm a bastard.
Originally posted by dadudemonwhat i mean is that she couldn't simply turn back into paper instead of making a distructo disc. looks like she didn't have the vitality for it
I agree that she was low on chakra. but she was preparing a massive attack when she got choke slammed by Tobi. Seems as though she wasn't running that low. If she had used up every last little ounce of her chakra, her hair would have turned white like Nagato's. .
Originally posted by Q99
Mind, she did block Jiraiya's fireball.Those are some of the ones that'd be the most dangerous for her. Of the three, I think Kakashi would have the toughest time- he tends to go for precision rather than area. His preferred move, lightning stab to the heart? Bad idea.
I think the the Uchiha fireball is much more potent than Jiraiya's attack at that time. Kakashi probably would have the toughest time outside of putting Konan under a genjutsu. I think he would be a little smarter than stabbing her given his track record. I think his biggest problem would be his crappy chakra level to sustain wide area attacks against her, but I'm sure he could pull it off.
Yea, but most wind attacks aren't like rasenshuriken, most are high-pressure gusts, simple wind blades, or the like.Kisame's sharks would likely take a fair number of hits to take her down. His lake jutsu and general water steams wouldn't do much.
Yeah, I guess I see your point on the wind style. Kisame's sharks may take awhile but there are alot of them. And outside of an Uzamaki or Bijuu, Kisame has the chakra stores to maintain wide area attacks. I think his lake jutsu could essentially drown her like it almost did Bee.
Yea, most taijutsu experts, even strong ones, would be screwed and would get wrapped up, but Gai's gates are nasty ^^
Agreed
Well, sort of. Jiraiya burned away almost all of the excess paper she had about (which was mostly in the form of a stabby stab stab spear). So, imho, she used all of her free paper to keep it from burning her person. And why would she do that if...drumroll...she would be just fine if it hit her?
Because losing mere loose paper is preferable to losing body mass, I'd say. When she did lose most of her torso, she didn't look happy about it.
We saw her lose body and then replace it multiple times, but she pretty much always regrows everything except her legs.
Also, her group was hired by other nations to do hard missions. Remember Old Man "Me back be aching" kage hiring Akatsuki for missions? I think...that.
Oh yea, that makes sense.
I agree that she was low on chakra. but she was preparing a massive attack when she got choke slammed by Tobi. Seems as though she wasn't running that low. If she had used up every last little ounce of her chakra, her hair would have turned white like Nagato's. .
She was looking really tired though and just had to stop one jutsu because of cost. And turning it off may free up some chakra to use- if you don't have enough chakra to defend and attack, you may still have enough to just attack.
socool
Yeah, I guess I see your point on the wind style. Kisame's sharks may take awhile but there are alot of them. And outside of an Uzamaki or Bijuu, Kisame has the chakra stores to maintain wide area attacks. I think his lake jutsu could essentially drown her like it almost did Bee.
Ah, but she can fly- unlike Bee, going strait up is a solution.
Originally posted by Q99
Ah, but she can fly- unlike Bee, going strait up is a solution.
Yes, but can she fly when she is stuck? I mean can't kisame simply change the current or flow at will? He also has that water prison technique that he used on his self. I don't think she can self replicate in that small of an area without being eaten.