The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Get Dust Release is not harder than, say, being born an Uchiha. It's a bloodline thing. You can transplant Sharingan but it does come with it's own cost.

But the point wasn't that you get Dust Release from the massage. The point was that in order to overcome the long term effects of the MS, you'd need to undergo surgery and a rest period(along with having an extra pair of eyes, the knowledge of the EMS anyway, and it still comes with the sacrifice of your sibling). Dust Release has no long term effects(cept perhaps making you live longer, still not sure) and all you need to be back on your feet fighting is a power nap/back rub.

Looking back, was a tad unclear.

Hmmm...

I didn't think about that. Yeah, if anyone hates Sharingan for it being too haxxx....

Then the should also hate Dust Release for being even more hax.

To be fair, the two only users of Dust Release are also really kewl guise.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Hmmm...

I didn't think about that. Yeah, if anyone hates Sharingan for it being too haxxx....

Then the should also hate Dust Release for being even more hax.

To be fair, the Sharingan does not become hax until it gets to MS. Even then, it is still saddled with short-term and long-term costs as well limited uses. After all, one person does not have every single MS technique known to us.

Dust Release and the Rinnegan are far more hax than the Sharingan ever was.
Most hax thing ever though, is 3000 years of pain as it is the signature technique of Random Love Letter guy. awesome

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
To be fair, the Sharingan does not become hax until it gets to MS.

I disagree. Even it's first mode gives it a giant advantage over almost all other KG.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. Even it's first mode gives it a giant advantage over almost all other KG.

I disagree too. While it is better than most KG, it can still be overcome by characters that are worth their salt. I call its base mode overpowered, not broken.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course they haven't. That's the point. That's the problem. Given their positions, they SHOULD have something more than taijutsu. But Kishi decided not to give them any. Why? Dunno. I'd say Tsunade should be using Ninjutsu a lot more and the Raikage should have more than a really fast punch. But...they don't. And no, you don't want the Kages to be written better. You want the Kage to be stronger. So do I. But you're blaming Madara because...I don't really know why. He is nothing but the object they should be using their sweet moves on. But the only one who is causing Madara any kind of annoyance is Onoki, who is also getting the most screen time of the Kage. You're blaming the bad guy but his only obligation is to be a threat. Onoki is the one so ridiculously above his allies that it doesn't matter what they try to do.

I'm not blaming Madara at all. I'm blaming Kishi for not writing the kages better. If they were written better, Mei would be using better offensive techs. A would be doing something other than moving fast and punching. I assume he would know the black lightning techs but he's never shown he can soo it doesn't matter. Tsunade has never used ninjutsu that I am ware of. I would like for them to use more ninjutsu, but at the same time, they never have so it would be out of their character to do so. I believ I already said that the reason Madara looks so strong is beacuse the kages are jobbing. How is that blaming Madara?

He was weak at the time. And a clone. At that time he was probably weaker than Onoki really.

Yes, but had they healed him, he would have been able to dominate again. The guy was pretty much handling business on like 5 fronts. He would have been a major help to the kages.

Oh it's just my eyesight! No big deal! Not like I've been scarred for life. Seriously? I'll get to something funny soon, I promise but seriously? First of all, in order to get the MS you need to lose the person closest to you. And in order to get EMS, need to take your siblings eyes. Never mind that such choices are in fact still losing something(condemning your sibling to death basically and killing two people close to you, causing emotional turmoil. See Sasuke), never mind the fact that that sequence of events requires a sorta troll logic.

And since there plenty of eyses to go around for the Uchihas that are left, blindness is not going to happen. Also, Sasuke got the MS without killing his friend so it doesn't seem to be a requirement. Itachi died, but he was hardly a friend at this point, or even close. Plenty of characters have been scarred, so it goes with the overall manga. If it was such an ordeal, and so heartbreaking for them, they wouldn't do it. So, I guess you could say the Uchihas are just a bunch of psychos anyways.

But okay, fair enough: EMS doesn't have the long term costs of the MS. Comes with something new(what? We dunno), but still zaps chakra(I assume). Granted, no MS technique besides the Mountain size Susano'o is as deadly as Mu's Chakra sensing+Flight+Invisibility+NUKE. But whatever. Let's look at the basics here. In order to get the EMS and circumvent what do you have to do? Go through surgery and a rest period. What do you have to do to start shooting nukes and buzzing around like a fly? Get a back rub. Or presumably a power nap. So even then, which seems easier?

First, when has chakra ever been something the Uchihas have not been able to overcome? sasuke just rolls with a healing machine all the time. Itachi and Madara just seem to have limitless chakra so not that big of an issue imo.

Sure there's a rest period. but the thing is, any Uchiha with a sharingan can essentially get it. To date, only two people have dust release. So yeah, it's easier to rest up with Dust release, but to actually have it is extremely rare. Rarer than say, an Uchiha unlocking the sharingan.

I'll notice you didn't take the bet.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
They were strong enough to control Bijuu and use them as their own pets. With what we've seen from Madara, and what we've learned about Hashirama, it is safe to say they are the strongest ninja seen so far, with the exception of the Sage of the Six Paths.

Errr..they each had a special ability that helped them control bijuu. It had nothing to do with strength. They never had to fight it without their special bllod lines

In the case of Madara, others had the same special ability, but couldn't control it, with the exception of Tobi. Sasuke himself can only suppress some of its chakra.

And you missed my point. The Bijuu were counted as part of their power. Much like Jinchuurikii. But unlike Jinchuurikii, Madara and Hashirama had other Bijuu-level shit to fall back on.

It was just the example you used. Were they uber powerful. Yeah, but it wasn't like they physically defeated bijuu on a regular or anything. Alot of people are uber powerful. Hell the third could hang with the 8 tails without any bijuu supressing abilities.

Yes, the Third could hang with Gyuuki with just brute power. It's why people call him the only ninja capable of going face to face with a bijuu. No one else could beat Bijuu without some sort of special ability like sealing afaik. Even though Naruto could hang with Bijuu for like 5 minutes, he still had to resort to cheap methods to win.
Dunno if Madara in his FAPS Susano'o could go toe-to-toe with a Bijuu, but he should be able to.
But yeah, they still had Bijuu under their control, and could use them like Summons. That alone puts them above most ninja. Then you have their own uber shit, like Madara's FAPS, and whatever it is that Hashirama could use that put him on an even footing with Madara using FAPS.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I disagree too. While it is better than most KG, it can still be overcome by characters that are worth their salt. I call its base mode overpowered, not broken.

I would say most Kekkei Genkai are overpowered.

Ice (Haku), Explosion (Deidara, Gari), Scorch (Pakura), Storm (Darui), Wood, Magnet... well, ok, magnetic shuriken guy did kinda suck, but Gaaradad and 3rd Kazekage are still really strong!

A KG seems like a shortcut to easy power, I think that one magnet dude is the weakest person we've seen with one of the elemental release ones.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I disagree too. While it is better than most KG, it can still be overcome by characters that are worth their salt. I call its base mode overpowered, not broken.

That's just plain wrong, though.

All things equal and both have a KG, the sharingan, even in the base "copy and mildly predict" form, it is still better than almost all other KG.

And it can be overcome by people that specifically train and develop tactics against it. The fact that people even have to do that is telling of how potent the KG is.

Put two random ninja in a room, both with equal stats, but one with a sharingan (3 tomoe) and the other with some random non-uchiha related KG, the sharingan user will win almost every time without fail. This is the power of the sharingan: the most hax KG in all of Naruto.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yes, the Third could hang with Gyuuki with just brute power. It's why people call him the only ninja capable of going face to face with a bijuu. No one else could beat Bijuu without some sort of special ability like sealing afaik. Even though Naruto could hang with Bijuu for like 5 minutes, he still had to resort to cheap methods to win.
Dunno if Madara in his FAPS Susano'o could go toe-to-toe with a Bijuu, but he should be able to.
But yeah, they still had Bijuu under their control, and could use them like Summons. That alone puts them above most ninja. Then you have their own uber shit, like Madara's FAPS, and whatever it is that Hashirama could use that put him on an even footing with Madara using FAPS.

In Naruto's defense, he wasn't trying to kill anyone. but he is still the only person I know of that has handled 5 bijuus with some help from the 8 tails. I'm sure he could dominate 1.
I agree that FAPS Madara could probably handle a bijuu, but it definitely wouldn't be easy imo. He and Hash just lucked out with higher than average chakra and special blood lines.

Again I agree that Hash and Madara are stronger than most ninjas, but I found it to be a tad bit ridiculous that they can defeat 5 kages solo. That's just too much imo. they could still be considered one of the greatest simply by being a challenge for the Kage, and not outright curbstomping them.

Put two random ninja in a room, both with equal stats, but one with a sharingan (3 tomoe) and the other with some random non-uchiha related KG, the sharingan user will win almost every time without fail. This is the power of the sharingan: the most hax KG in all of Naruto.

I think some of 'em could do pretty good. I mean, Storm has homing lasers. And magnet, at least the iron/gold varieties, lets you surround yourself with metal sand so unless the other nin has a high-penetration attack, they're screwed. Boil, just fill the area with acid! Unless they've got strong range, they can predict all they want, but still, pretty tough for them. Hm, Kurotsuchi's lava might be good too

Storm seems like the best pick, because I don't know if it can be dodged.

Mostly it depends on the specific KG.

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Unrelated, but found an interesting wallscroll image online:

*Edit* This one's kinda cool too:

^ Dude, that's a pretty sweet pic. Their lives would have been completely different if not for a few events.

I like how Naruto and Sasuke are almost kissing. Its really true to their characters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I like how Naruto and Sasuke are almost kissing. Its really true to their characters.

And Kushina's rooting them on!

Originally posted by socool8520
I'm not blaming Madara at all. I'm blaming Kishi for not writing the kages better. If they were written better, Mei would be using better offensive techs. A would be doing something other than moving fast and punching. I assume he would know the black lightning techs but he's never shown he can soo it doesn't matter. Tsunade has never used ninjutsu that I am ware of. I would like for them to use more ninjutsu, but at the same time, they never have so it would be out of their character to do so. I believ I already said that the reason Madara looks so strong is beacuse the kages are jobbing. How is that blaming Madara?

You don't want the Kage's written better. You want the fight written better. But tell me, how could you expect them to do cool stuff if Onoki is doing the cool stuff? And Tsunade has used Ninjutsu several times. And Madara is strong because he is. And you're calling the arc Madara wank and stuff. You're obviously annoyed that he is leagues above them.

Originally posted by socool8520
Yes, but had they healed him, he would have been able to dominate again. The guy was pretty much handling business on like 5 fronts. He would have been a major help to the kages.

Dude, I could spit on a Shadow Clone and it would disappear. It might have been able to help for about a few seconds. And then Madara would pop it to get it out of the way.

Originally posted by socool8520
And since there plenty of eyses to go around for the Uchihas that are left, blindness is not going to happen. Also, Sasuke got the MS without killing his friend so it doesn't seem to be a requirement. Itachi died, but he was hardly a friend at this point, or even close. Plenty of characters have been scarred, so it goes with the overall manga. If it was such an ordeal, and so heartbreaking for them, they wouldn't do it. So, I guess you could say the Uchihas are just a bunch of psychos anyways.

Blindness does happen. It happens to anyone who gets an MS. And Sasuke killed his brother, the closest person to him. Which is the actual requirement but whatever. And it is an ordeal and remember, Sasuke didn't want to do it until yeah he basically became a psycho. And remember, there are only two known EMS users. If the whole clan had them, they'd basically be untouchable.

Originally posted by socool8520
First, when has chakra ever been something the Uchihas have not been able to overcome? sasuke just rolls with a healing machine all the time. Itachi and Madara just seem to have limitless chakra so not that big of an issue imo.

How is Sasuke having a healer with him any different at all from Onoki having a healer with him? It's not. It's just smart. And no, Itachi didn't have limitless chakra until he was revived(Madara's Senju cells might be the cause for him). Chakra levels are something that varies from person to person and can't rightly be applied to all people. And we're talking about the techs, not the clans anyway.

Originally posted by socool8520
Sure there's a rest period. but the thing is, any Uchiha with a sharingan can essentially get it. To date, only two people have dust release. So yeah, it's easier to rest up with Dust release, but to actually have it is extremely rare. Rarer than say, an Uchiha unlocking the sharingan.

Obviously not. Madara is treated as the only man to have unlocked the final secret of the Sharingan(EMS) by Itachi. Sasuke only has it because Itachi left it for him and Tobi wanted him to have it. So guess how many that is? 2. The same number of Dust Release users.

Originally posted by socool8520
First I didn't know you were serious. Second, there is no way to define a winner. Sure Onoki could dust release them all, but sasuke could just make them all kill themselves with a genjutsu.

Sasuke has never shown the ability to stop an army with genjutsu. No one except the 2nd Mizukage has done that(and even then, Mu would have killed them faster). Onoki would win without any doubt at all. Numbers don't matter to a Dust Release user. Even EMS Madara could be overcome through sheer numbers and teamwork, albeit momentarily.

Originally posted by Q99
And Kushina's rooting them on!

Course. She's happy her son has no interest in girls. ^^

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You don't want the Kage's written better. You want the fight written better. But tell me, how could you expect them to do cool stuff if Onoki is doing the cool stuff? And Tsunade has used Ninjutsu several times. And Madara is strong because he is. And you're calling the arc Madara wank and stuff. You're obviously annoyed that he is leagues above them.

For the fight to be written better, the kages have to be written better. Just because Onoki is doing cool stuff doesn't mean that the other characters can't do it with him. That would make the fight more reasonable and less one sided imo. That's my problem with this fight. the only one doing something is Onoki. He is the only acting like he is being worthy of being called a Kage. So yes, I want the fight written via better kage writing. I am annoyed that he is leagues above them due to the fact that they are jobbing so that apperas that way. Oh and when has Tsu used ninjutsu? The only thing I can consider ninjutsu is possibly the nervous system altering jutsu. That's pretty much useless in this fight. She's used a summon too I guess. but when has she really done any real ninjutsu? No electric based attacks besides the one just mentioned to speak of. It would be out of character and would literally come from nowhere.

Dude, I could spit on a Shadow Clone and it would disappear. It might have been able to help for about a few seconds. And then Madara would pop it to get it out of the way.

IDK, the third had a hard time hitting him, especially with back up. He was good enough to surprise attack Muu, and he was powerful enough to stop Mokuton. He could have been a big help.

Blindness does happen. It happens to anyone who gets an MS. And Sasuke killed his brother, the closest person to him. Which is the actual requirement but whatever. And it is an ordeal and remember, Sasuke didn't want to do it until yeah he basically became a psycho. And remember, there are only two known EMS users. If the whole clan had them, they'd basically be untouchable.

How long had Itachi been using it? And he never went fully blind. Sasuke didn't kill his brother, Itachi succumbed to his illness. I'm not saying that the whole clan had them, but the potential is there for several of the clan members to have unlocked it. More so than say another person being a dust release user.

How is Sasuke having a healer with him any different at all from Onoki having a healer with him? It's not. It's just smart. And no, Itachi didn't have limitless chakra until he was revived(Madara's Senju cells might be the cause for him). Chakra levels are something that varies from person to person and can't rightly be applied to all people. And we're talking about the techs, not the clans anyway.

I never ever said that it was different than Onoki having a healer. In fact, I mentioned it to prove my point why it wasn't as hax as sharingan techs. Onoki got off like two dust releases and was near death before Tsu healed him. sasuke on the other hand was able to manipulate Amaterasu and maintain Susano'o at the same time during an entire fight before needing aid. For something that should have been extremely draining, he sure didn't seem to bad off. I know Itachi's chakra levels were not infinite. I was being sarcastic. However, he has never shown a lack of chakra to pull off attacks.

Sasuke has never shown the ability to stop an army with genjutsu. No one except the 2nd Mizukage has done that(and even then, Mu would have killed them faster). Onoki would win without any doubt at all. Numbers don't matter to a Dust Release user. Even EMS Madara could be overcome through sheer numbers and teamwork, albeit momentarily.

Madara would just use FAPS (I like that Demonic), and kill the entire army instantly with the sword slash. Okay maybe he doesn't genjutsu them, he just amaterasu's them all and they die like he did with the zetsus.

Originally posted by socool8520
For the fight to be written better, the kages have to be written better. Just because Onoki is doing cool stuff doesn't mean that the other characters can't do it with him. That would make the fight more reasonable and less one sided imo. That's my problem with this fight. the only one doing something is Onoki. He is the only acting like he is being worthy of being called a Kage. So yes, I want the fight written via better kage writing. I am annoyed that he is leagues above them due to the fact that they are jobbing so that apperas that way. Oh and when has Tsu used ninjutsu? The only thing I can consider ninjutsu is possibly the nervous system altering jutsu. That's pretty much useless in this fight. She's used a summon too I guess. but when has she really done any real ninjutsu? No electric based attacks besides the one just mentioned to speak of. It would be out of character and would literally come from nowhere.

That's the point. Onoki is the only one doing things because Kishi wrote the fight that way. The Kage aren't being written badly, he's just being a screentime whore. I can understand Gaara, he got a two Kage fights under his belt. But Mei, A, and Tsunade have been left doing nothing of any worth really. Madara was always implied to be better than all of them so not a problem with him. And all medical ninjutsu is ninjutsu. And it wouldn't be that outta nowhere.

Originally posted by socool8520
IDK, the third had a hard time hitting him, especially with back up. He was good enough to surprise attack Muu, and he was powerful enough to stop Mokuton. He could have been a big help.

He had more of a backup in that fight, 3rd Raikage is weaker than Madara, and Madara would prioritize Naruto as a threat.

Originally posted by socool8520
How long had Itachi been using it? And he never went fully blind. Sasuke didn't kill his brother, Itachi succumbed to his illness. I'm not saying that the whole clan had them, but the potential is there for several of the clan members to have unlocked it. More so than say another person being a dust release user.

He clearly uses it far more sparingly than Sasuke. Potential doesn't equal hax if it never gets used.

Originally posted by socool8520
I never ever said that it was different than Onoki having a healer. In fact, I mentioned it to prove my point why it wasn't as hax as sharingan techs. Onoki got off like two dust releases and was near death before Tsu healed him. sasuke on the other hand was able to manipulate Amaterasu and maintain Susano'o at the same time during an entire fight before needing aid. For something that should have been extremely draining, he sure didn't seem to bad off. I know Itachi's chakra levels were not infinite. I was being sarcastic. However, he has never shown a lack of chakra to pull off attacks.

Onoki got off several more than two if you examine the battlefield. And he was near death probably more because of the meteor that smashed his face than lack of chakra. Sasuke was not very well off in that fight. Used Amaterasu once(twice?) and Susano'o like twice and he was done. Keep in mind, both are less deadly than Dust techs. And Itachi died after using 3 MS techs. While alive his chakra is comparable to Kakashi's.

Originally posted by socool8520
Madara would just use FAPS (I like that Demonic), and kill the entire army instantly with the sword slash. Okay maybe he doesn't genjutsu them, he just amaterasu's them all and they die like he did with the zetsus.

Madara has Rinnegan. And I was comparing MS Sasuke to Onoki, not EMS. Granted, EMS Sasuke hasn't been very impressive.