Tobi could keep up with Naruto in his KCM, which is as fast as A on average, and physically overpower him. He could also deal with attacks from Guy, react to Naruto's even faster KCM, and the attacks of various other characters. That's not even bringing in his ninjutsu feats which, few as they are, are pretty damn good.
Kakashi is not faster than Guy and he sure as shit isn't faster than Naruto. And he undeniably bested Tobi in taijutsu combat like he was nothing.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Tobi could keep up with Naruto in his KCM,
I disagree, of course.
But I could be wrong. Did you have certain pages in mind or is that a general belief?
Originally posted by AuraAngel
...and physically overpower him.
I don't think that happened to Naruto.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
He could also deal with attacks from Guy,
He just reacted to them by going intangible: he did the same to Minato. That's not the same as going toe-to-toe in H2H with someone, imo.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Kakashi is not faster than Guy and he sure as shit isn't faster than Naruto. And he undeniably bested Tobi in taijutsu combat like he was nothing.
When it is just taijutsu skill, alone, a person can bridge the gap quite easily. Tsunade is a 3 in speed but she clearly could keep up with a legit speedster like Madara.
I think the speed thing, except in Minato's case, has more to do with straight-line blitzing than Taijutsu.
I still don't buy the fact that Tobi was inexperienced with his Path powers. I mean he was able to make zombie Paths of Pein, summon the Gedo Mazo, and has knowledge on how to use Rinne Tensei. He might not be able to use the Rinnegan powers simultaneously like Nagato but he should've at least been able to use Preta Path to absorb all of the chakra attacks Kakashi's been dishing out.
Also whatever happened to the Mokuton stuff he showed us in his flashback. I mean couldn't Obito impale Kakashi with a branch or something. Then there's the issue with Kakashi suddenly getting over his chakra limitations and being able to keep up with Obito throughout the recent course of events.Overall this fight was all kinds of dumb but at least Kishi didn't spend too much time on it. Now we hopefully get to see some progress.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree, of course.But I could be wrong. Did you have certain pages in mind or is that a general belief?
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c609/7.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c595/12.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c595/15.html
Tobi could both quickly capture Naruto with his Mokuton, dodge an attack without using Kamui while also dealing with what Kakashi was doing, and forced Naruto into a retreat where Tobi was hot on his tail.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't think that happened to Naruto.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c595/16.html
Not a significant feat of strength sure but it kept Naruto preoccupied enough to be tied up.
Originally posted by dadudemon
He just reacted to them by going intangible: he did the same to Minato. That's not the same as going toe-to-toe in H2H with someone, imo.
What is a good indication is that he catches them after the phasing. They're still going at the same speed so catching them is still impressive even if he let them pass through first.
Originally posted by dadudemon
When it is just taijutsu skill, alone, a person can bridge the gap quite easily. Tsunade is a 3 in speed but she clearly could keep up with a legit speedster like Madara.I think the speed thing, except in Minato's case, has more to do with straight-line blitzing than Taijutsu.
He can explicitly read through Guy's moves so I can't see why Kakashi's would be any different.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I still don't buy the fact that Tobi was inexperienced with his Path powers. I mean he was able to make zombie Paths of Pein, summon the Gedo Mazo, and has knowledge on how to use Rinne Tensei. He might not be able to use the Rinnegan powers simultaneously like Nagato but he should've at least been able to use Preta Path to absorb all of the chakra attacks Kakashi's been dishing out.Also whatever happened to the Mokuton stuff he showed us in his flashback. I mean couldn't Obito impale Kakashi with a branch or something. Then there's the issue with Kakashi suddenly getting over his chakra limitations and being able to keep up with Obito throughout the recent course of events.Overall this fight was all kinds of dumb but at least Kishi didn't spend too much time on it. Now we hopefully get to see some progress.
Ironically enough his Rinnegan is still an important part of this chapter even though he never used it.
At first I thought he needed Spiral Zetsu in order to do all the stuff he did. However I had forgotten about the scene where he ties Naruto up with Mokuton. So I have no idea why he didn't use any of it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I kind of wish Kakashi would use some of those thousands of jutsu he's supposedly copied. It would be neat if he beat Obito by using extremely clever jutsu combinations.But then I wish that had always been his thing rather than the chidori spam he always uses.
Ahem. Raikiri spam thank you very much.
But yeah. Really I'm just being turned off on Kakashi's character as of late. Without the chakra limitations he becomes a lot more broken. It's actually pretty annoying.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c609/7.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c595/12.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c595/15.htmlTobi could both quickly capture Naruto with his Mokuton, dodge an attack without using Kamui while also dealing with what Kakashi was doing, and forced Naruto into a retreat where Tobi was hot on his tail.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c595/16.html
Not a significant feat of strength sure but it kept Naruto preoccupied enough to be tied up.
Just as I was suspecting.
I view those same things differently than you do. With the Naruto blitz, Tobi is remaining still while Naruto blitzes him. Tobi does not necessarily have the reaction times or speed that Naruto does. He just has to react to Naruto's attacks quick enough to avoid death. Also add in that Tobi has a sharingan which will help him quite a bit in the reaction time department (just not enough to physically move in time, as we saw with Sasuke vs. Raikage). I see the mukotan interception as a very quick reaction to Naruto but it does not indicate that he is on par with Naruto's speed. I still say Naruto greatly outclasses him in speed and strength in that exchange. Without his Mukotan, I posit that Tobi's entire arm would have been destroyed (to pieces) if he tried to block Naruto.
For the "phase through the rock" trick, that was just that: a trick. It does not indicate he has special speed or strength. It was just Tobi being an awesome ninja using trickery to get the drop on someone that was in mid-air (with no clones to change his trajectory).
As for Naruto's comment about his strength, the Japanese have this thing about the word "strong": it does not equate directly to just "pure physical strength" as we use it. It more means "highly skilled and tactful...or possessing lots of power", but not directly "tons of physical strength." It is much more apt to say "strong" than "skillful, resourceful, and sharp wit".
Originally posted by AuraAngel
What is a good indication is that he catches them after the phasing. They're still going at the same speed so catching them is still impressive even if he let them pass through first.
That's not a good indication of speed, though. That is Tobi executing an adept skill of his, in combination with his sharingan's ability to use Precog. That's one of his "things": catching people after he's let them phase through him. Minato is faster without the hack of the sharingan: that's actual "speed" as you want to define it.
Catching them is stupendously impressive, imo. To me, it shows he is a skilled tactician but does not show off some absurd reaction time or speed...like, say...Raikage or KCM Naruto.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
He can explicitly read through Guy's moves so I can't see why Kakashi's would be any different.
1. You should definitely blame it on PIS rather than talking up Tobi.
2. Did he really see through Guy's moves or was Guy holding back?
Don't care enough to continue the dialogue DDM.
Originally posted by BloodRain
So.. Obito's gonna resurrect Rin? awesome
That would be hilarious. And cruel since presumably Rin was buried in a coffin and she'd be unable to get out.
But yeah Sawyer had a bad review. Comparing Obito to the Xbox 180 is not cool bro.
Originally posted by dadudemon
For the "phase through the rock" trick, that was just that: a trick. It does not indicate he has special speed or strength. It was just Tobi being an awesome ninja using trickery to get the drop on someone that was in mid-air (with no clones to change his trajectory).
Bwah? Are you talking about the third scan? In that one Naruto is on the ground (as is obvious in the bottom right panel) until Tobi pops out and tries to touch him. Naruto tries to run away by jumping away from him using falling rocks. But Tobi chases him and stays the same distance from him as before Naruto fled, demonstrating equal speed. It weren't no trick.
People are actually saying Obito is arguably the weakest Akatsuki.
This is what happens when you create a hilariously underwhelming fight. I'm really bummed about all of this.
Shit you know what would have been better? Obito transports Bee to the pocket dimension to seal him later. A then pops up and does a lariat. Obito phases, thinking that this would be easy to dodge, and BOOM! Bee did a lariat two.
Double Lariat Across Dimensions~
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bwah? Are you talking about the third scan? In that one Naruto is on the ground (as is obvious in the bottom right panel) until Tobi pops out and tries to touch him. Naruto tries to run away by jumping away from him using falling rocks. But Tobi chases him and stays the same distance from him as before Naruto fled, demonstrating equal speed. It weren't no trick.
The "trick" was popping out of the rocks and there is nothing in that scan indicating that Naruto is trying, with any sort of effort, to avoid Tobi. The only thing we can conclude is he was just trying to avoid Tobi's attack so the most we can conclude is that Naruto was moving fast enough to avoid getting hit while he tried to figure something out. Assuming, automatically, that Naruto was jumping about at full speed to avoid Tobi is forcing PIS. As Q99 put it, if you have to make an assumption to create PIS, you should assume something else to make it not PIS.
If Naruto were surprised at how fast Tobi was, he would have said something. He didn't. Naruto's suprise was at how strong Tobi was, not his speed. And I covered the 'strong' topic, already.
So, you continue to assume Naruto was jumping at way at full speed and I'll assume that it is anything but the idea that forces PIS.
If anything, that shows us a panel where Naruto's KCM is so absurdly OP that someone as fast and as skilled as Tobi still cannot get the drop on Naruto (sinister chakra sensing is how Naruto knew Tobi was coming).
Originally posted by Nephthys👆
It would be neat if he beat Obito by using extremely clever jutsu combinations.
Obito outclasses Kakashi in physical strength, raw power, chakra reserves, broken powersets, and speed. However, Kakashi has two advantages: He is considered a tactical genius, Obito is not. Also, in terms of sheer amount of techniques, Kakashi vastly outclasses Obito. Had he used that plethora of different jutsu creatively to best a more powerful opponent, it would have been thematically richer and more interesting to watch. Rather than Kakashi just beating the shit out of Obito.