I don't even know what that is awesr
Frankly, any argument that makes Madara and Obito utterly suck its fine by me. The thing I like about this manga is how it aknowledges that the villains are pathetic idiots who look for shortcuts and get punked by all those hard worker heroes that at least realize the world is to live in it. No amount of talent and hax powers is going to save Madara or Obito from how lame they've become.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Kakashi doesn't work hard at all for what he gets though, he is the talented ****er with hax powers who didn't work for shit yet ends up better than most.Obito has struggled far more than Kakashi for what he has.
Dealing with actual death instead of finding a cop out its still more responsible than Obito. And the description you just played works perfectly for Obito as well, except that you replace talent with living plants Inside your body.
And I disagree about the struggle, Obito has been enhanced with the Naruto equivalent of super steroids, was born with a crazy eye that has a hax ability and steals eyes -that he doesn't know how to use properly by the looks of it-, in order to gain power. Sure, he has struggled some, but all those methods are still shortcuts for power that he never managed to capitalize.
Originally posted by Bentley
Dealing with actual death instead of finding a cop out its still more responsible than Obito.
True, but irrelevant to what I said.
And the description you just played works perfectly for Obito as well, except that you replace talent with living plants Inside your body.
That he explicitly had to go through constant training to so much as make it not fall off when he jacks off?
Compared to Kakashi, who just shows up after the timeskip with the ability to send people to other dimensions with a glance?
Oh yeah, it's the same, sure, lol.
And I disagree about the struggle, Obito has been enhanced with the Naruto equivalent of super steroids,
Read above.
was born with a crazy eye that has a hax ability
The one he was shown actually training, developing, and who actually lost shit to use, compared to Kakashi who got it gift-wrapped?
and steals eyes -that he doesn't know how to use properly by the looks of it-, in order to gain power.
If by "steals eyes" you mean he gave them to Nagato, then spent decades carefully plotting and planning around getting them back from Nagato, relying on the red-headed douche trusting him to continue using them, and indeed had to struggle to regain them via fighting Konan.
As for not being able to use them properly, that is entirely nonsense. He was able to use their powers properly through the hosts that he controlled, yet he can't use them himself? That's bullshit, and you're a fool if you are buying it.
Sure, he has struggled some, but all those methods are still shortcuts for power that he never managed to capitalize.
Only despite less panel time, we see him struggle and work toward advancing his own abilities far more than we see Kakashi doing the same.
Bentley, I'm not even trying. Do you even lift?
Originally posted by NemeBro
[B]As for not being able to use them properly, that is entirely nonsense. He was able to use their powers properly through the hosts that he controlled, yet he can't use them himself? That's bullshit, and you're a fool if you are buying it.[B]
Its on panel, its not up to me to invent excuses as for why Obito didn't use his Rinnegan. What do you want me to argue? Did he got pierced or not? I guess he must be the master of the Rinnegan then.
I think that you're assuming that the work Obito pushed is not outweighted by the absurd amount of power he won in all those trade offs. Kabuto and Orochimaru obviously worked to get where they went, but they were also obviously looking for short-cuts, those situations aren't mutually exclusive.
If you want me to I can take back my stance, let's say the heroes aren't particularly hard workers, but that the villains are just prone to cop outs, to finding the easy way out and to be obsessed with cheating death instead of shallowing up their pride and dealing with it. The villains are pretty pathethic and that's why I'm their detractor, they suit me just fine as villains because I can't like them. Heroes don't need to be exemplary to me, as long as they don't fall that low is ok.
The point of me mentioning the villains is the fact I don't care about specifics about Kakashi. Just love to see Obito and Madara defeated for no reason.
Hope this clarifies my stance.
Originally posted by Bentley
Its on panel, its not up to me to invent excuses as for why Obito didn't use his Rinnegan.
Because the plot denied his ability to do so despite him already doing so.
What do you want me to argue? Did he got pierced or not? I guess he must be the master of the Rinnegan then.
He is indeed.
I think that you're assuming that the work Obito pushed is not outweighted by the absurd amount of power he won in all those trade offs.
No, I am just acknowledging that there was hard work involved. I am not going to arbitrarily decide whether or not it outweighed the power he won, because to do either is an unfounded assumption.
Kabuto and Orochimaru obviously worked to get where they went, but they were also obviously looking for short-cuts, those situations aren't mutually exclusive.
Did they? Possibly, only both are also noted to be extremely talented geniuses in their areas. We actually see that this is not the case for Obito, and we witness the werk he puts in.
If you want me to I can take back my stance,
idc
let's say the heroes aren't particularly hard workers,
Well, not entirely true in all cases. True in Kakashi's, based on what we see.
but that the villains are just prone to cop outs,
Which villains are you referring to?
And cop-outs in what way?
Madara is a very talented ninja, but we also know that through his childhood and young adulthood he went through Hell to get that good. So, arguably not a cop-out in terms of his power. He's earned that.
But in terms of mindset? Sure, Madara is emotionally immature and psychotic, his ultimate plan is a cop-out. Obito is the same, but not so much in terms of his power.
to finding the easy way out and to be obsessed with cheating death instead of shallowing up their pride and dealing with it. The villains are pretty pathethic and that's why I'm their detractor, they suit me just fine as villains because I can't like them. Heroes don't need to be exemplary to me, as long as they don't fall that low is ok.
That's cool and all, and I agree in most areas, but that doesn't mean that Obito's previously demonstrated prowess on the battlefield should be ignored.
The point of me mentioning the villains is the fact I don't care about specifics about Kakashi. Just love to see Obito and Madara defeated for no reason.Hope this clarifies my stance.
So your stance is that you dislike Obito and Madara (Because you think they are good villains...?) and like to see them lose and suck, regardless of how much the story suffers when they do?
Originally posted by dadudemon
To the haters of Obito losing to Kakashi.Kakashi is a speedster. Kakashi is one of the best all-around ninja in the series. That has always been the case. I would say his biggest weakness is his strength level but even that is not really bad.
He's a genius, he's very fast, he's got high levels of ninjutsu, he has genjutsu down, knows quite a bit about hand seals, and has high levels of chakra.
The issue is he is not #1 at any of those. But he's a really awesome all-around ninja.
And the reason he beat Obito is Obito has not shown to be nearly as adept at using the Rinnigan as people like Nagato and Madara.
From what I understand, both of them had experience with the Rinnigan but Obito didn't?
Lastly, Obit's "ace" is his speed and intangibility. He lost his most of his ace because he couldn't leave: he was already in the pocket dimension. So he had to fight straight up. It was a speed and taijutsu fight and Kakashi is still better at that.
Also, they both were low on chakra, iirc. So Obito is not going to pull out some amazing ninjutsu with the rinnigan any time soon.
Honestly, I just think Obito isn't fighting as seriously as he was when he blitzed Kakashi. Naruto and Kakashi have both messed with his psyche causing him to be less effective. It almost seems like Obito doesn't want to win anymore.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The "trick" was popping out of the rocks and there is nothing in that scan indicating that Naruto is trying, with any sort of effort, to avoid Tobi.
Are you.... trolling me? Is this to get back at me for what I said yesterday? He's jumping backwards to avoid him because one touch is instant 'you lose'. He doesn't even have time to turn around and run away properly. He's obviously trying to avoid him. The fact that Tobi still manages to stay on him close enough that he can successfully attack him clearly demonstrates that Naruto, and try to keep up here, failed to avoid him.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The only thing we can conclude is he was just trying to avoid Tobi's attack so the most we can conclude is that Naruto was moving fast enough to avoid getting hit while he tried to figure something out.
So what you're arguing is that Naruto was trying to avoid him, but wasn't actually putting any effort into it?
Why would he need to figure something out if he could just outspeed him and get away? If you can get away through speed why would you intentionally not move fast enough to get away? Why would you intentionally keep the guy who can beat you with a touch, literally with his hand two feet from your face?
Are you high?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Assuming, automatically, that Naruto was jumping about at full speed to avoid Tobi is forcing PIS. As Q99 put it, if you have to make an assumption to create PIS, you should assume something else to make it not PIS.
What the literal poop are you saying? PIS? WTF? Why is it PIS to assume that the guy trying to get away.... is actually trying to get away? ****ing what?
Originally posted by dadudemon
If Naruto were surprised at how fast Tobi was, he would have said something. He didn't. Naruto's suprise was at how strong Tobi was, not his speed. And I covered the 'strong' topic, already.
Unless he wasn't surprised at his speed at all. And by your own theory Naruto could have been including Tobi's speed when he mentioned how strong he was. Suck it dingalinga!
Originally posted by dadudemon
So, you continue to assume Naruto was jumping at way at full speed and I'll assume that it is anything but the idea that forces PIS.
Sure, continue to assume the most retarded theory possible, that Naruto was fast enough to get away but didn't because..........
..... drugs?
Originally posted by dadudemon
If anything, that shows us a panel where Naruto's KCM is so absurdly OP that someone as fast and as skilled as Tobi still cannot get the drop on Naruto (sinister chakra sensing is how Naruto knew Tobi was coming).
And that someone as fast and skilled as KCM Naruto still cannot avoid Tobi's attacks. Naruto tried to run away from him but Tobi pursued and successfully attacked him anyway.
Ergo Tobi = Naruto in speed.
^ To be fair, their fight has been going on off an on for quite a while now. If you look at it as just this chapter, then yeah, it's quite boring, but when you look at since Kakashi showed up to help Naruto against the jinchuriiki paths, it makes sense that they would not be revving on all cylinders at this point.
But still, Obito should not lose to Kakashi.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Kakashi doesn't work hard at all for what he gets though, he is the talented ****er with hax powers who didn't work for shit yet ends up better than most.Obito has struggled far more than Kakashi for what he has.
I would disagree. What did Obito really do to get his powers? Get smashed under a rock? The senju chakra and healing were given to him. Sure he trained to perfect his wood techs, but nothing like Lee and the like. He unlocked a sharingan which only takes emotional strain. Hell he even took the rinnegan which was basically a gift from Madara. The only thing he ever worked for was his fire techs. He's basically Sasuke in that regard. Given everything and the only training he's done is to use his "donated" gifts.
Originally posted by socool8520
I would disagree. What did Obito really do to get his powers? Get smashed under a rock? The senju chakra and healing were given to him. Sure he trained to perfect his wood techs, but nothing like Lee and the like. He unlocked a sharingan which only takes emotional strain. Hell he even took the rinnegan which was basically a gift from Madara. The only thing he ever worked for was his fire techs. He's basically Sasuke in that regard. Given everything and the only training he's done is to use his "donated" gifts.
Obito was given the Senju DNA but he had to practice, quite a lot, to even be able to walk. As opposed to Kakashi who just immediately got the Sharingan and had it down pat. Even most Uchiha can't use it as well as Kakashi according to Itachi. He didn't even have to improve his only technique since Obito's Sharingan gave him all he needed.
Obito's only truly handed out power was his MS, which he had to do nothing for. As for the Rinnegan? Well Obito might not have needed to train in order to use it but he DID have to plot and plan for years in order to get the Bijuu for his plan. In case you missed it Obito was challenging the WORLD as a whole and that takes way more work than anything Kakashi has ever shown.
Originally posted by socool8520
I would disagree. What did Obito really do to get his powers? Get smashed under a rock? The senju chakra and healing were given to him. Sure he trained to perfect his wood techs, but nothing like Lee and the like. He unlocked a sharingan which only takes emotional strain. Hell he even took the rinnegan which was basically a gift from Madara. The only thing he ever worked for was his fire techs. He's basically Sasuke in that regard. Given everything and the only training he's done is to use his "donated" gifts.
Read his post carefully. He's saying that Kakashi worked far less to to get to where he is than Tobi did, not that Tobi never got anything for free.
Also, he had to beat Konan to get Madara's Rinnegan, and he had to constantly manipulate Nagato to keep him around in the first place.
To be honest, DDM & Bentley could be right in that Obito could not use all of the 6 Path related powers, with the exception of the Human Path & Outer Path techniques. He's had multiple opportunities to use techs like Shinra Tensei and chakra absorption. Maybe it's because he only had one Rinnegan.
That, or f***ing CIS and Kishi wanting to focus on explaining how they would defeat his Kamui, his mask, and his ideals.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you.... trolling me? ... He's jumping backwards to avoid him because one touch is instant 'you lose'. He doesn't even have time to turn around and run away properly. He's obviously trying to avoid him. The fact that Tobi still manages to stay on him close enough that he can successfully attack him clearly demonstrates that Naruto, and try to keep up here, [b]failed to avoid him. [/B]
You've made assumptions that do not fit with the facts. You're forcing CIS to facilitate an agenda rather than choosing the set of explanations that does not force CIS (and, as a consequence, PIS). The fact that my reply to what you stated above would still be the same is telling of the content of this particular section of your post: you brought nothing to the argument, did not acknowledge the actual points in my post, and are still dead set in your ways of forcing CIS.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So what you're arguing is that Naruto was trying to avoid him, but wasn't actually putting any effort into it?
You should read your own posts and read mine and you could get the answers to your own questions.
Yes to everything here. Then add in my post...and you get...the answer that makes sense (rather than your strawman rhetoric of my posistion or your forced CIS).
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would he need to figure something out if he could just outspeed him and get away?
Yes, running away and avoiding Tobi altogether is exactly why Naruto headed towards Tobi to confront him (do you remember how this confrontation originally started? 😄), right? Good thinking. 😐
Here, have another:
Yes, running away and avoiding Tobi altogether while in a super-taijutsu mode (KCM) is the best way to confront Tobi, right?
Originally posted by Nephthys
If you can get away through speed why would you intentionally not move fast enough to get away?
He clearly did move away fast enough because Tobi was hitting air and not getting Naruto (Naruto had that situation under control. Even after getting struck by the guitar(lol), Naruto still was no worse off. Face it, your argument fails from any angle you approach it: Naruto knew what he was doing.)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would you intentionally keep the guy who can beat you with a touch, literally with his hand two feet from your face?
"Yes, running away and avoiding Tobi altogether is exactly why Naruto headed towards Tobi to confront him, right? Good thinking. 😐
Here, have another:
Yes, running away and avoiding Tobi altogether while in a super-taijutsu mode (KCM) is the best way to confront Tobi, right?"
Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you high?
Not at all but you're in another one of your idiot modes where, no matter what, you'll continue spewing your idiocy and refuse to admit you were clearly wrong.
Originally posted by Nephthys
What the literal poop are you saying? PIS? WTF? Why is it PIS to assume that the guy trying to get away.... is actually trying to get away? ****ing what?
And that, good sir, is a textbook strawman:
Try again:
Address my actual point, properly, this time:
"Assuming, automatically, that Naruto was jumping about at full speed to avoid Tobi is forcing PIS. As Q99 put it, if you have to make an assumption to create PIS, you should assume something else to make it not PIS."
Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless he wasn't surprised at his speed at all.
You cannot just restate what I said and pretend it is your own point. I just said that. Naruto was clearly not surprised by Tobi's speed. Not only did Naruto have enough time to react to a sneak attack, he avoided Tobi's nasty grip.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And by your own theory Naruto could have been including Tobi's speed when he mentioned how strong he was. Suck it dingalinga!
That could be possible, obviously. (Why do you think I'm as dense and bullheaded as you? Not everyone is like that. 🙂 )
But every other time someone has been seen as fast, it was noted by the one "tango-ing" with the speedster or an onlooker. We didn't' get that. Using just a tiny bit of brains (just a tiny bit), it is pretty obvious that Naruto would rather make a commentary about 'strong', than "fast" like he did of the Raikage.
You tried, right? 🙂
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, continue to assume the most retarded theory possible, that Naruto was fast enough to get away but didn't because............... drugs?
Factually incorrect. Naruto successfully maintained the distance between himself and Tobi. And before you shit yourself, Naruto was the one choosing the distance between them: not Tobi. Naruto kept it close for reasons I already stated. If you disagree, I'll just point you back to the same scans Aura posted.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And that someone as fast and skilled as KCM Naruto still cannot avoid Tobi's attacks.
Addressed this already, multiple ways and in multiple points. He did avoid Tobi's attacks, several times, and with ease. When naruto was hit with the "guitar", he was in the air and did not have a clone to change his trajectory. That's skill, not speed, that Tobi used to smack Naruto.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ergo Tobi = Naruto in speed.
False.
Kakashi = Tobi in speed
Naruto >>>>>>>>>> Kakashi in speed.
Naruto >>>>>>>>> Tobi in speed.
Only you're twisted and massive ego prevent you from admitting 1 of three explanations:
1. Kishimoto created some massive CIS/PIS.
2. Naruto kept the distance close enough so he could attack back Tobi (meaning, Naruto was purposefully going slow enough to keep the distance close so he could attack back Tobi...but far enough away so Tobi could not "one-touch" KO/BFR him).
3. Some other reason not yet explained by the author.
You try too hard.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Is this to get back at me for what I said yesterday?
You know what this tells me about you? You put a lot of thought and effort into what you "said yesterday". You were hoping it did more than it accomplished. You tried. You really did. It is amazing that you got so butthurt because your troll attempt failed. 🙂
Don't get too personal, broseph. I always win. 313