Originally posted by socool8520
Didn't this already happen in the anime? he pretty much chumps up for Konohamaru.
I wish that we could get back to the God of Shinobi stuff regarding Hiruzen Sarutobi.
I wish he would just come along and prove why he was considered the strongest Hokage to put to bed all of this stuff about Madara, Hashirama, and Tobirama.
I hate it that Kishimoto retconned Hiruzen and the First and Second...
Hiruzen's sacrifice was one of the best writing moments in Naruto. You really felt like this guy was powerful and loved the shit out of his people. You really thought Orochimaru was a truly despicable person. Even with all of this, Hiruzen still loved Orochimaru like a son.
What does Kishimoto do? Shits all over some of his best writing.
Kishimoto, why you troll me so much?
It was always gonna be hard to actually show Hiruzen being stronger than at least the 1st. He was put on legendary status at his introduction. He could have made him stronger than the second though. And what about Minato? lol
If he hadn't, the 1st and second would have looked horribly weak imo. Nowhere near deserving of their legend status. I mean if hiruzen really could have beaten both of them at the same time then everyone past Sage mode Naruto should have been able to wreck them with ease.
I agree that his sacrifice was symbolic and moving at the time because the death of a good guy hadn't happened yet iirc although I also found the Asuma death to be hard hitting as well.
IDK what he is thinking right now. I was somewhat on board until this whole kaguya business. I was hoping Naruto and sasuke defeated Madara and then duke it out for Hokage or something.
Originally posted by socool8520
It was always gonna be hard to actually show Hiruzen being stronger than at least the 1st. He was put on legendary status at his introduction. He could have made him stronger than the second though. And what about Minato? lolIf he hadn't, the 1st and second would have looked horribly weak imo. Nowhere near deserving of their legend status. I mean if hiruzen really could have beaten both of them at the same time then everyone past Sage mode Naruto should have been able to wreck them with ease.
I agree that his sacrifice was symbolic and moving at the time because the death of a good guy hadn't happened yet iirc although I also found the Asuma death to be hard hitting as well.
IDK what he is thinking right now. I was somewhat on board until this whole kaguya business. I was hoping Naruto and sasuke defeated Madara and then duke it out for Hokage or something.
I would expect Kishimoto to indicate why Hiruzen was considered the strongest Hokage. I can understand calling Minato the most talented Ninja in the shinobi world (something Jiraiya said of Minato) because he was very highly skilled but not absurdly powerful, if that makes sense.
Hiruzen could have been both: highly skilled and powerful.
Kishimoto did not need to escalate the power of the shinobi, like he did. He could have written something in, simple, that would have explained the fight with the First and Second Edo bodies.
Well, Hiruzen was never really shown to be very powerful either was he? I thought his claim to fame was being incredibly knowledgeable of Jutsu making him more of a genius like Minato and unlike the the first 2 Hokage (although the 2nd seems to be both powerful and intelligent).
So could Minato but that's just not the way of it. lol
Like what?
Originally posted by socool8520
Well, Hiruzen was never really shown to be very powerful either was he?
At the time of their fight (Oro and Hiruzen), the onlooking Jonin were amazed at the power between the two because it was on a "whole other level" of scale. That was supposed to be the kage level of power.
Kishimoto retconned that stuff to say "Hashirama and Tobirama were weaker than their true selves because Oro was still learning how to make Edo Tensei stronger." Kishimoto did not need to do that. He also did not need to keep increasing the power of the ninja but he did so to seemingly make it more and more awesome.
You know, in the flash back, he could have made the Hiruzen and Tobirama (where Hiruzen replaced Tobirama) situation seem that much more amazing. He could have showed Sarutobi WTF-pwning people, left and right, with a very grand scale of power AND skill. Then we could just chalk up the old fight with Oro as, "Oh, well, Sarutobi was very weak compared to his former self. Clearly. Look how powerful he is in this flashback?"
That would have been okay. We would have obviously known that it was a bit cheap to justify that but it would have been leaps and bounds an improvement on what we got.
Originally posted by socool8520
I thought his claim to fame was being incredibly knowledgeable of Jutsu making him more of a genius like Minato and unlike the the first 2 Hokage (although the 2nd seems to be both powerful and intelligent).So could Minato but that's just not the way of it. lol
Like what?
Sarutobi's claim to fame was being the most powerful Hokage and the most powerful Kage of the ninja villages. He was supposed to be more powerful than the First, Second, and Fourth. He clearly wasn't.
Originally posted by dadudemon
At the time of their fight (Oro and Hiruzen), the onlooking Jonin were amazed at the power between the two because it was on a "whole other level" of scale. That was supposed to be the kage level of power.Kishimoto retconned that stuff to say "Hashirama and Tobirama were weaker than their true selves because Oro was still learning how to make Edo Tensei stronger." Kishimoto did not need to do that. He also did not need to keep increasing the power of the ninja but he did so to seemingly make it more and more awesome.
To be fair, those Jonin were a bunch of chumps iirc.
I really don't see how that was kage level considering Zabuza's water dragon was just as sizeable it seemed way earlier in the manga. Hell, Naruto's 1000 clones jutsu seemed like a feat up there with what they were doing on that roof.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Sarutobi's claim to fame was being the most powerful Hokage and the most powerful Kage of the ninja villages. He was supposed to be more powerful than the First, Second, and Fourth. He clearly wasn't.
I guess I only remember him being the most knowledgeable of the Hokages, but I do remember him being the strongest of the then living Kages. The oly one I could really see disproving the latter would have been Oonoki
Originally posted by socool8520
To be fair, those Jonin were a bunch of chumps iirc.I really don't see how that was kage level considering Zabuza's water dragon was just as sizeable it seemed way earlier in the manga. Hell, Naruto's 1000 clones jutsu seemed like a feat up there with what they were doing on that roof.
Sarutobi was able to counter the stuff the First and Second were throwing at him which were on a grander scale that Zabuza's ninjutsus.
Also, Zabuza is a high-end Jonin. Not quite Kage level but definitely a powerful Jonin.
Originally posted by socool8520
I guess I only remember him being the most knowledgeable of the Hokages, but I do remember him being the strongest of the then living Kages. The oly one I could really see disproving the latter would have been Oonoki
Yes, Oonoki was a late addition. After Kishimoto pretty much had written himself into a massive plothole with Hiruzen's power.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, Oonoki was a late addition. After Kishimoto pretty much had written himself into a massive plothole with Hiruzen's power.
Which is why I thought Kishi's writing in Hiruzen being the "Professor" was a more correct moniker. He probably was never the most powerful, but he could have been the most knowledgeale of techniques. I would have been happy if this would have been explored more. if they could have shown a few more of his battles where he is just pulling off a bunch of varied jutsus would have lended more creedence to the bad ass he was supposed to be.
^ I would have accepted him spamming dimension crossing and such because we already knew this to be the capabilities of Obito's eyes. The fact that Kakashi could use a fully powered susano that Obito never used is pretty ridiculous though. Besides, warping could have saved Sakura just as easily and make him just as versatile and dangerous.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Yeah Tobi really should have taken the time to get his eye back from Kakashi. Things would have turned out quite differently.
I agree. He would have been near impossible to beat with both versions of Kamui. A crazy good defense and one of the best long range offenses in the manga. The alliance would have been merced a long time ago.
Originally posted by socool8520
My bad. In what way is Madara worse than Tobi in your opinion?
His fights are dull. He basically screws around until he decides it is time to win. And his death was lame. Even if he is inside Kaguya he won't be trolling death like Obito has been for the past several chapters.