Originally posted by dadudemonHow is 'For decades the Uchiha killed their friends to get the Mangekyou Sharingan, and killed their siblings to make it's power permanent.' not proof?
In fact, even the stuff Kento quoted isn't direct evidence. They fought to get it, but it doesn't say that anyone got it above and beyond those that got it.
Kento'Many sacrifices piled up over the course of our clans history.'
'For decades the Uchiha killed their friends to get the Mangekyou Sharingan.'
Ah, I see.
It might be that there still wasn't many at one time (I do wonder if it required getting 3-tomoe first), and it was a fairly war-torn era.
Perhaps ones Leaf was formed stability grew to the point it wasn't necessary, or perhaps they were specifically targeted by the Senju to be reduced to fairly small number.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, but, how is controlling the Bijuu going to be a big deal when both can do it?Obviously, Mr. Senju has the more powerful control...right?
We only know of the MS being able to control the Fox. Senju could do 1-8.
Originally posted by Kento
Guess anything is possible.Yea kinda makes MS and EMS not seem that powerful. Course I guess MS techniques aren't all Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, and Susanoo. Sasuke has Enton control instead of Tsukiyomi, and Madara said Susanoo was rare.
They're pure-bred Senju, they could "corrupt" even Orochimaru given time.
True, maybe only notable Uchiha like Madara/Izuna/Itachi/Sasuke can make it seem powerful/hax.
He has Tsukiyomi as well, or else, he wouldn't be able to use Susano'o.
Originally posted by Q99
Ah, I see.It might be that there still wasn't many at one time (I do wonder if it required getting 3-tomoe first), and it was a fairly war-torn era.
Perhaps ones Leaf was formed stability grew to the point it wasn't necessary, or perhaps they were specifically targeted by the Senju to be reduced to fairly small number.
We only know of the MS being able to control the Fox. Senju could do 1-8.
To be honest, I don't see why it couldn't control the others. After all, technically, they are similar to each other as they were once one, if the Juubi really did exist.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
To be honest, I don't see why it couldn't control the others. After all, technically, they are similar to each other as they were once one, if the Juubi really did exist.
Perhaps because of it's 'evil' chakra? There does seem to be a specific connection between the Fox and the Uchiha.
Originally posted by King Kandy
As far as I can tell, the tablet breaks down like this:Normal eyes: Yeh get teh Mangekyo by killin' yer best frend!
Sharingan: IDK
Mangekyo: Brothers eyes give you EMS, and that "best friend" requirement is a load of shit.
Rinnegan: Actually I just added all that earlier stuff to prank the weak-eyed ones. Don't tell them this though, make up some shit about 10-tailed beasts and my sons giving rise to clans. Uchiha's eat that stuff up. Rinnegan foreva!
Can't tell if you're being serious or not, so I'll just assume you are being serious...
Normal: "Best friend" really is a load of shit said by Itachi to Sasuke. The loss of the person closest to you gives you MS. Doesn't necessarily have to be your best friend, as shown through Sasuke.
Sharingan: Most likely deals with the MS being able to control the Fox. Kento could be right when he said that the Uchiha only assumed the MS could control the Fox, as they knew that Madara could.
Rinnegan: Except he didn't know about the Uchiha, so he couldn't have filled it up with lies. Not to mention, I don't think Nagato (prior to his humiliating talk with Naruto), would lie to Madara.
_______
Originally posted by Q99
Perhaps because of it's 'evil' chakra? There does seem to be a specific connection between the Fox and the Uchiha.
I suppose that could be the case. There's also that whole hate aspect of the fox, and the Uchiha being a clan of hatred.
Maybe the Kyuubi inherited the dark aspect of the Juubi's chakra.
It's also notable that the Sharingan looks like the inner circle in the eye of the Juubi.
~ How did Pein create the Rinnegan in 6 others? That body that Konoha has still has its Rinnegan. If so, Konoha could possibly learn a lot about the Rinnegan.
Originally posted by psycho gundamMaybe that's the whole plan. And it never really says what happened to it. Just that he sealed half the chakra, and then gave the other half to Naruto.
whatever happened to the other half of the kyuubi's chackra? i don't recall.pretty sure madara would need that for his jutsu thing right?
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Can't tell if you're being serious or not, so I'll just assume you are being serious...Normal: "Best friend" really is a load of shit said by Itachi to Sasuke. The loss of the person closest to you gives you MS. Doesn't necessarily have to be your best friend, as shown through Sasuke.
Sharingan: Most likely deals with the MS being able to control the Fox. Kento could be right when he said that the Uchiha only assumed the MS could control the Fox, as they knew that Madara could.
Rinnegan: Except he didn't know about the Uchiha, so he couldn't have filled it up with lies. Not to mention, I don't think Nagato (prior to his humiliating talk with Naruto), would lie to Madara.
Normal: But Sasuke read the tablet with his normal eyes and sharingan eyes, and still thought that you needed to kill your best friend, so clearly something to that effect was implied, true or not.
Rinnegan: He did not know the Uchiha, but it is possible he knew the sharingan, since to me at least it seems highly likely that the origins of the sharingan lie in the Jyubi, which looks very similar and I highly doubt that was a coincidence on Kishi's part.
Meanwhile, his elder son also had the rinnegan and probably knew of the sharingan, since his children were uchihas. So parts regarding uchiha/sharingan could have come from him and still remained in the rinnegan section.
I'll explain this as best as I can, so bear with me. I'm not saying that it is correct; rather it is how I understand it.
What do we know?
We already know that Minato split the Kyuubi's chakra into two parts, Yin & Yang.
We also know that there are two seals on Naruto. One is the Shiki Fūjin, the other is the Eight Trigrams Sealing Style.
To put it simply: The Yang chakra is sealed using the Eight Trigrams Sealing Style. The Yin Chakra is sealed using the Shiki Fūjin.
Onto the explanation:
a) The Eight Trigrams Sealing Style allows Naruto to access the Kyuubi's chakra, in this case, the Yang half of the Kyuubi's chakra.
b) The way the Shiki Fūjin is shown to work in the Sarutobi-Orochimaru fight is this:
1. Shinigami grabs opponent's soul.
2. Shinigami seals opponent's soul within caster's body. Characteristic seal is left on the caster's stomach. (Caster being the person using the Shiki Fūjin)
3. Shinigami then takes the caster's soul as the cost. If the opponent's soul is sealed in the caster's body, then the opponent's soul is taken as well.
(Read Chapter 123-124 for proof)
c) This is a common point that many overlook:
The reason the Shinigami did not get the Yin half of the Kyuubi's chakra should be clear based on Steps 2 & 3.
Minato never sealed the Yin half inside himself, he somehow sealed it inside Naruto. The Shinigami never took Naruto's soul, it took Minato's, as he was the 'caster'. Therefore, the Shinigami never got the Yin Half.
d) What does this mean? It means that Naruto can access the Yang half due to the Eight Trigrams Sealing Style. The Yin Chakra is not accessible because it is sealed using the Shiki Fūjin. This also means that the entirety of the Kyuubi's chakra is sealed in Naruto, but he can only access the Yang half.
tl;dr - The entirety of the Kyuubi's chakra is sealed within Naruto, but he can only access the Yang half due to the nature of the seals used to seal the two halves.
Therefore, Madara must have a way to get past the Shiki Fūjin seal. Since the Yin half of the Kyuubi's chakra is sealed within Naruto, and not within the Shinigami, it functions like any other Fūinjutsu.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
~ How did Pein create the Rinnegan in 6 others? That body that Konoha has still has its Rinnegan. If so, Konoha could possibly learn a lot about the Rinnegan.
Originally posted by King Kandy
I was joking, however I do think I was right about some things there.Normal: But Sasuke read the tablet with his normal eyes and sharingan eyes, and still thought that you needed to kill your best friend, so clearly something to that effect was implied, true or not.
Rinnegan: He did not know the Uchiha, but it is possible he knew the sharingan, since to me at least it seems highly likely that the origins of the sharingan lie in the Jyubi, which looks very similar and I highly doubt that was a coincidence on Kishi's part.
Meanwhile, his elder son also had the rinnegan and probably knew of the sharingan, since his children were uchihas. So parts regarding uchiha/sharingan could have come from him and still remained in the rinnegan section.
Ahh fair enough, my mistake.
Normal: Does he ever really mention best friend though? I think best friend/closest person were used interchangeably.
I mean, Sasuke's MS isn't a special type of MS, it's just a normal MS, albeit one that has a style-pattern (6 points, black iris, red symbol) that is different from the style-pattern (3 points, red iris, black symbol) seen in other M.Sharingans.
He doesn't get his MS by killing his best friend, he gets his by experiencing the loss he feels for his brother, the person who was closest to him.
Then there's Kakashi, who wouldn't kill his best friend.
Rinnegan: True, I don't think that it is a coincidence as well. However, it's still different from the Sharingan, and he cannot have known about it. Simply because it was generations after the Elder son that the Uchiha & the Sharingan appeared.
I don't really know if the Elder Son had the Rinnegan. His eyes seem to have Spirals, rather than the circles that are characteristic of the Rinnegan.
Originally posted by King Kandy
It does? I assumed that it simply naturally appeared, since they had no chakra of their own but merely projections of Nagato. However, without transmissions from the chakra rods I can't think of any reason they should remain.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Ahh fair enough, my mistake.Normal: Does he ever really mention best friend though?
I mean, Sasuke's MS isn't a special type of MS, it's just a normal MS, albeit one that has a style-pattern (6 points, black iris, red symbol) that is different from the style-pattern (3 points, red iris, black symbol) seen in other M.Sharingans.
He doesn't get his MS by killing his best friend, he gets his by experiencing the loss he feels for his brother, the person who was closest to him.
Then there's Kakashi, who wouldn't kill his best friend.Rinnegan: True, I don't think that it is a coincidence as well. However, it's still different from the Sharingan, and he cannot have known about it. Simply because it was generations after the Elder son that the Uchiha & the Sharingan appeared.
I don't really know if the Elder Son had the Rinnegan. His eyes look like Spirals, rather than the circles that are characteristic of the Rinnegan.
You could be right. I don't think we're shown the body after Nagato dies.
Still, when they first receive the body, it has the Rinnegan, and Nagato is still in Amegakure I think.
Normal: I'm not saying that you need the best friend to get MS. That's exactly the opposite of what i'm saying. I'm saying that the tablet says you need to kill your best friend, but that higher readings (probably info gleaned at the MS stage) tell you what the REAL requirement is.
Rinnegan: We know he didn't know about the uchiha, but i'm saying that sharingan might have arisen from the Jyubi during the Sage's lifetime without any clan associated with it. Maybe someone with Byakugan managed to get some Jyubi chakra, and he mutated a sharingan or something (that would make what Kakashi said be valid again). Maybe having children while being the jyubi jinchuruki caused sharingan-like abilities among them. We just don't know what the association between Jyubi and Sharingan are, but downplaying it would be a great mistake.
I think the elder son had the rinnegan, and the confusion is just bad artwork (kind of like dadudemon thinking the sharingan on danzo's arm weren't normal ones). After all, he was said to have the sage's eyes.
On the body, the body when brought to konoha still had it's rods in it, and so it's possible even if nagato wasn't transmitting chakra, it was still "Attuned" to him in some way.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Normal: I'm not saying that you need the best friend to get MS. That's exactly the opposite of what i'm saying. I'm saying that [B]the tablet says you need to kill your best friend, but that higher readings (probably info gleaned at the MS stage) tell you what the REAL requirement is.Rinnegan: We know he didn't know about the uchiha, but i'm saying that sharingan might have arisen from the Jyubi during the Sage's lifetime without any clan associated with it. Maybe someone with Byakugan managed to get some Jyubi chakra, and he mutated a sharingan or something (that would make what Kakashi said be valid again). Maybe having children while being the jyubi jinchuruki caused sharingan-like abilities among them. We just don't know what the association between Jyubi and Sharingan are, but downplaying it would be a great mistake.
I think the elder son had the rinnegan, and the confusion is just bad artwork (kind of like dadudemon thinking the sharingan on danzo's arm weren't normal ones). After all, he was said to have the sage's eyes.
On the body, the body when brought to konoha still had it's rods in it, and so it's possible even if nagato wasn't transmitting chakra, it was still "Attuned" to him in some way. [/B]
Normal : My bad, my bad.
I think they might have been used interchangeably, the terms best friend/closest person that is.
The Uchiha were the ones who added that anyway, so Kento is probably right when he says that they were liars >__>. Or they did not understand the true method to obtaining MS when they added that text.
Rinnegan: To be honest, that is what I was thinking, that the Sage being the Juubi host influenced the formation of the Sharingan in the descendants of the Elder Son.
I associated it to bad artwork at first too. Then I saw this picture. It seems clearer. Look closely at his right eye, it looks more like a spiral pattern than concentric circles.
Body: Possibly. I suppose Kishi won't settle this, at least not until Madara decides to recover the Rinnegan. I'll look over the chapters with that body, and see if there are any with the rods removed or something.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Normal : My bad, my bad.
I think they might have been used interchangeably, the terms best friend/closest person that is.
The Uchiha were the ones who added that anyway, so Kento is probably right when he says that they were liars >__>. Or they did not understand the true method to obtaining MS when they added that text.Rinnegan: To be honest, that is what I was thinking, that the Sage being the Juubi host influenced the formation of the Sharingan in the descendants of the Elder Son.
I associated it to bad artwork at first too. Then I saw this picture. It seems clearer. Look closely at his right eye, it looks more like a spiral pattern than concentric circles.
Body: Possibly. I suppose Kishi won't settle this, at least not until Madara decides to recover the Rinnegan. I'll look over the chapters with that body, and see if there are any with the rods removed or something.
No, I think we may have misunderstood the whole concept of the tablet. Here are two scans describing it (the same page, two different translations to see any ambiguities).
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/12/
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-467/page012.html
What the two scans say is that the tablet is "the secrets left to us by the rikudou", and that you can "decode" more of those same secrets if you have eyes, with each eye tier being able to read more.
From this, I think that all of the content is left by the sage, and was there for the reading of those with the rinnegan. However, with other dojutsu, you can approximate the original content with partial readings, but the knowledge will be very incomplete and misleading, kind of like trying to understand a document with every other line missing. Each new eye is closer to the rinnegan in terms of power, so each new eye gives a better reading. But I don't think, upon looking again, that there's actually content that was designed to be read specifically by people with certain eyes.
On the elder brother: the picture of him in general looks very, how can I say this, stylized? Not just his eyes but in general, as if it's like an old japanese-style portrait of him and not the man himself. Anyway, I do think it's an artwork issue, though he definitely has spirals. However I think they may have been drawn as spirals to kind of give it an "old" feel by drawing it similar to the style of classic japanese paintings. IMO the dialogue itself gives no doubt that he had the rinnegan.
Originally posted by Kento
How is 'For decades the Uchiha killed their friends to get the Mangekyou Sharingan, and killed their siblings to make it's power permanent.' not proof?
Because that's the only point that that is ever said and nothing else is talked about that. Not one person is mentioned that did it other than Madara. It doesn't say that they actually achieved it, either. It certainly talks about the violence, but not actual achievement.
Also, it simply isn't true. It's a lie and it didn't happen.
Originally posted by King Kandy
I think the elder son had the rinnegan, and the confusion is just bad artwork (kind of like dadudemon thinking the sharingan on danzo's arm weren't normal ones). After all, he was said to have the sage's eyes.
I agree.
It's just crappy, rushed, art. If i look at it one way, I can see a type of sharingan in his eyes. From another, it looks spiraled.
Originally posted by King Kandy
No, I think we may have misunderstood the whole concept of the tablet. Here are two scans describing it (the same page, two different translations to see any ambiguities).http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/12/
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-467/page012.htmlWhat the two scans say is that the tablet is "the secrets left to us by the rikudou", and that you can "decode" more of those same secrets if you have eyes, with each eye tier being able to read more.
From this, I think that all of the content is left by the sage, and was there for the reading of those with the rinnegan. However, with other dojutsu, you can approximate the original content with partial readings, but the knowledge will be very incomplete and misleading, kind of like trying to understand a document with every other line missing. Each new eye is closer to the rinnegan in terms of power, so each new eye gives a better reading. But I don't think, upon looking again, that there's actually content that was designed to be read specifically by people with certain eyes.
On the elder brother: the picture of him in general looks very, how can I say this, stylized? Not just his eyes but in general, as if it's like an old japanese-style portrait of him and not the man himself. Anyway, I do think it's an artwork issue, though he definitely has spirals. However I think they may have been drawn as spirals to kind of give it an "old" feel by drawing it similar to the style of classic japanese paintings. IMO the dialogue itself gives no doubt that he had the rinnegan.
Well, more like trying to read a page that has lines of text of differing sizes, with a magnifying glass that can only read the bigger lines. It's the analogy I wanted to use a few posts back, but I thought it would support your point more than mine, so yeah 😛.
Otherwise, your post makes sense. Everything was written by the Sage.
You only get partial knowledge from reading it with the Sharingan/MS, in that, you were correct from the start.
Elder Brother: I suppose. But you agree that the eye patterns look like spirals yes?
As to the dialogue, you have to notice that the word 'Eyes' is presented in quotes, thus, I don't think it means he inherited the Rinnegan itself. The Sage was the first one to have a doujutsu, and the Elder son was the second. The statement could simply refer to that.
You also have to note that the Sage was the Juubi host, and it must have tainted the Rinnegan, which gave rise to the newer doujutsu present in the Elder Brother. This is all assuming the Elder brother is actually the Sage's child.
Naruto Wiki: I think the picture is from there, not sure. I got the picture off Google Images.
As for the wiki itself, there are some morons present on the site, as well as intelligent ones, but I treat it more or less like Wikipedia. Unless there's a proper reference, I treat statements as speculation.
Also, I don't think the Yin half is in the Death God's belly, despite what Jiraiya said in a chapter. Could have been a translation issue.