Originally posted by Q99
S- seems like the perfect category for Hidan to me. He's more powerful than an A+, but also clearly weaker than pretty much every S you can name.Also I'd say Hebi Sasuke and possibly Kimimaro aren't really on the level of the full S-classes, while being more powerful than an A+.
Possibly part-1 Kakashi as well. People certainly talk about his strength even more-so than the A+ ninja and treat him as one of Konoha's most famous, and he has the S-class jutsu raikiri. He's just not yet at the 'full' S-class level he will be at.
Pre-Hebi Sasuke is probably the one you are thinking about. He's likely high A+ or low S (or, S- if you want to have it), but Hebi Sasuke is definitely in S-Class. Between the Cursed Seal of Heaven, Orochimaru's jutsu, and Sasuke's own abilities, Hebi Sasuke packed some serious power.
A+ is already a high enough tier as it is for Kakashi (part 1). He was more powerful than Asuma, but not by a whole lot IMO. Certainly not by enough to warrant a whole new tier. Still, his reputed thousand jutsu arsenal probably could lift him out of A+.
Originally posted by Q99
If it's just an aesthetics thing, I'll point out the list is supposed to tell us more about power and level.I'm not really sure what the advantage to more letters like that would be. That method gets you Hidan and Kakuzu or Deidara in the same level, and I think we need more detail than that.
More than just aesthetics, since I think even Hidan is worthy of the S tier. Though you make a good point about Kakashi in part 1.
More letters gets us about the same versatility as having '-' ranks. People like Nagato, current Naruto or even perhaps Healthy Itachi, are powerful enough that S+ won't do them justice. Then there are people like Hashirama and Madara who while using the stronger Bijuu, should be far more powerful than Nagato was.
True, but if we rank the ninja in each tier as well (strongest to weakest), we can still separate them by a significant margin, which is what I was aiming for.
Originally posted by Q99
True, I just assumed A+ due to him being chosen as the sand sibling's teacher, as well as clearly having an important spot on their jonin council.
He's a strong jounin, but I don't think he'd be on Yamato's level, even with his importance.
Originally posted by Q99
Note he was facing Naruto and Sasuke at the same time, and they were clearly being played with (Haku did not want them dead), and he even got a kill shot on Sasuke.And 'enough force' is more than Sasuke could put out by a fair bit, and even pre-Chunin exam Sasuke was easily the strongest of the rookie 9 between C class fire jutsu and the Sharingan (probably at least C- then, maybe C).
Heck, even when Naruto went fox-mode, he escaped him easily to go help out Zabuza.
Considering it was two on one, Haku took no damage at all until the fox came out, and even at that point he escaped easily, all without trying hard? Yea, that's C+ in my book.
That was while he was using the Ice-Mirrors. Sasuke fought him alone before that, and Haku did not do too well. Had it been someone like Neji or Lee (who were much faster and stronger than that Sasuke), the fight would have been over then & there.
Pre-Chuunin Exam Sasuke did not have the Chidori, or the speed/taijutsu that Chuunin Exam finals Sasuke did. Not to mention, outside the Ice Mirrors, Haku's speed paled in comparison to the likes of Lee. Even in the Ice Mirrors, Naruto in Fox Mode was able to react to him.
He may be C+, but he definitely isn't B, which is where you placed him at first.
Originally posted by Q99
If we go by the stats, she's excellent in taijutsu and ninjutsu too (though her strength's a bit low). She was able to defend against Itachi's taijutsu went they fought.Also, the fact that she's considered the very best-best in Genjutsu in Konoha makes me want to put her in A+. If it takes a mastered sharingan to escape, that's going to be pretty devastating in most fights.
Maybe not the strongest A+, but she strikes me as in it, and they do refer to her as one of the 'elite' jonin along with Gai, Kakashi, and Asuma.
It doesn't really take a mastered Sharingan to escape. It takes a mastered Sharingan to easily escape & counter it.
She was able to escape Itachi's counter by biting her lip. Provided an opponent realized they were under a genjutsu, it would be the same for her opponent.
Plus the whole activation of her genjutsu seemed to be pretty slow. Kisame had enough time to attack & wound Asuma.
Not that I'm saying she sucks at Genjutsu, as she obviously does not; though since her genjutsu is via hand-seals, it won't be as uber as Sound-based or Sharingan genjutsu is.
Certainly not the strongest A+ if she's in it. Suigetsu's been shown to be more powerful than she is.
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, I think he is stronger. Maybe not massively, but up to B- perhaps. According to the databooks, his taijutsu, ninjutsu (that is, chakra projection for rotation and such), intelligence, speed, and stamina all improved. Only the intelligence is really obvious, but Neji doesn't really gain additional jutsu at any point, he just gets better with them.Chouji and Kiba, definitely. Chouji had an improved version of his human bullet (with spikes), added the pills to his arsenal, and just generally fights better.
Kiba added the two-headed dog mode to his arsenal for starters.
Most of the rest of your changes I think I agree with.
Yeah, B- seems about right for Neji during the SR arc. He was overwhelmed by Kidomaru.
They did get more powerful then. C tier?
Start of Part 1 Sakura is probably in the same level as Naruto post Shadow Clone Jutsu mastery, which would be D. After her determination went up, I guess she became a little more powerful.
Originally posted by marwash22
Naruto... sage mode + soilder pill + a crap load of food + Oro curse mark + 8 gates + Yin Seal.
Either Sasuke, Killerbee or Raikage would still be able to pwn that kind of Naruto. stoned
Demonic Phoenix
More than just aesthetics, since I think even Hidan is worthy of the S tier. Though you make a good point about Kakashi in part 1.
A +/- is still within a certain tier, just lower or higher within it than others. S- is still without a doubt S, it's just the bottom portion of the S-class.
I just want more detail within said tiers with +/-, and keep things within the original letter ranks as much as possible.
Originally posted by Q99
A +/- is still within a certain tier, just lower or higher within it than others. S- is still without a doubt S, it's just the bottom portion of the S-class.I just want more detail within said tiers with +/-, and keep things within the original letter ranks as much as possible.
Meh, fine then.
Not going to respond to anything else in my post? I take it you agree with me then? 😛
Spoiler:
So it seems there is a beast even stronger than the 9-Tails, the 10-Tails
It seems to me that Kabuto is just like a puppet on a string.
I think Orochimaru already has taken full control of his body.
Also, Kabutomaru seems to have the same revival technique as Pain, but retaining the user's powers.
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
It seems to me that Kabuto is just like a puppet on a string.
I think Orochimaru already has taken full control of his body.
Hm, he still struck me as fairly Kabuto-ish, but there is some Orochimaru bleed over there.
Also, Kabutomaru seems to have the same revival technique as Pain, but retaining the user's powers.
This is the revival technique Orochimaru used back during the Konoha invasion on the 1st and 2nd Hokage.
I think Pain's ones are different in that if he's not putting chakra into them, the bodies are still 'dead,' they're more properly puppets than full reanimation.
Originally posted by Q99
This is the revival technique Orochimaru used back during the Konoha invasion on the 1st and 2nd Hokage.I think Pain's ones are different in that if he's not putting chakra into them, the bodies are still 'dead,' they're more properly puppets than full reanimation.
Now he has Akatsuki's bodies, which makes him pretty uber now.
Originally posted by stickman618
with edo tensei, how much power is retained by the revived?cos there's no way the third beat the first and second (he would have won with the explosive tags if it weren't for the regeneration thing)
I think most of the jutsu power is there, but some of the remaining personality is there too so I wouldn't be surprised if those two were holding back.
Hm... come to think of it, a single explosive tag isn't normally fatal like that. Perhaps if they were both alive, they would've been hurt but not blown apart, but the zombie-bodies may be more fragile, a fact countered by their ability to recover from anything.
Originally posted by stickman618
with edo tensei, how much power is retained by the revived?cos there's no way the third beat the first and second (he would have won with the explosive tags if it weren't for the regeneration thing)
IMO, it probably depends on the chakra level of body used as the sacrifice. The resurrected have all of their jutsus, along with regeneration, but they have the potential to be less powerful than they were when they were alive.
After all, a person resurrected by Edo Tensei is simply the dirt and ash surrounding the sacrifice shaped into the likeness of said person.
Originally posted by Q99
Hm, he still struck me as fairly Kabuto-ish, but there is some Orochimaru bleed over there.
Originally posted by stickman618
but Orochimaru killed their personality with those kunai tags he put in their heads
Actually, he just robbed their free will. They still did not want to fight Hiruzen, but they knew they had no choice.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
IMO, it probably depends on the chakra level of body used as the sacrifice. The resurrected have all of their jutsus, along with regeneration, but they have the potential to be less powerful than they were when they were alive.
After all, a person resurrected by Edo Tensei is simply the dirt and ash surrounding the sacrifice shaped into the likeness of said person.
Though there's no way Kin and Zak had the chakra to use the level of power they were using, those were big jutsu they used in succession (Yamato starts to get winded after doing the size of forests that zombieHashirama made, and likewise a Water Dragon Bullet without outside source in addition to other water techniques is pretty high juice). Their chakra level had to at least been close to their original amount.
Could be because his control over Mokuton & chakra isn't as good as Hashirama's was. Or that both Hashirama and Tobirama had incredible chakra & element control. Tobirama, after all, could perform that Water Jutsu requiring close to 50 seals, with just one.
Besides, Hashirama used around three jutsu including the genjutsu, while Tobirama used around the same amount as well.